Does man have the free will choice to choose God?

[Drew]

Amen.

Can't bring the truth of God's Word down to human reasoning; far too deep.

I do not agree and think that if you take your own argument seriously, it would handcuff you from engaging in discussion.

When we discuss the Scriptures in a board like this, we inevitably use the tools of human reason - it cannot be avoided. The very decision to participate in such discussions is predicated on the notion that the church has at its disposal a commonly shared set of reasoning principles that all agree to - human reason if you will.

 

[Drew]

Out of all the possible choices in a situation God will always make the best choice for mankind if He is moral and good, but is it really a choice (to decide between possible options) if God is omniscient? No Drew God does not have freewill, unless He is imperfect, a perfect God does not make imperfect decisions.

Well if God does not have freewill then none of His actions are in any sense ultimately self-determined - they are "caused" by external agencies.

I think we both understand that this is a very difficult question and what I say here requires a ton of extra qualifying information which I am not equipped to give.

I know where you are coming from (I think) - you think that that since choice is "a logical functioning mechanism", and since "mechanisms" do not make "free" choices, then humans cannot make free choices.

I suggest that this argument presumes something that should not be presumed about the nature of choice - that it is purely "mechanistic". You would need to justify such an assumption. In short, you need to justify your claim about "cause and effect" being the "rule" of the human world. This is not at all clear.

 

[Bubba]

Drew wrote:
“So the absence of clear scriptural assertions about man having free will is not evidence that the writers did not believe men have some degree of free will.â€Â
Can you describe one choice man can make that isn’t predicated on all those stimuli that preceded his decision? I can’t.
Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

Drew,
Out of all the possible choices in a situation God will always make the best choice for mankind if He is moral and good, but is it really a choice (to decide between possible options) if God is omniscient? No Drew God does not have freewill, unless He is imperfect, a perfect God does not make imperfect decisions. “Cause and effect†is in respect to our realm not His.
Peace, Bubba

Oh brother. So now GOD doesnt even have freedom.
So who's pulling Gods strings, bubba ?

 

[Bubba]

Drew wrote:
“Well if God does not have freewill then none of His actions are in any sense ultimately self-determined - they are "caused" by external agencies.â€Â
No, God being all knowing and morally good does not need “external agencies†to make choices and all His actions are “ultimately self-determinedâ€Â, by His perfect will (Eph.1:11, Eph. 2:10, Phil. 2:10).
Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

Follower,
You confuse all those verses of the law as our freewill to perform,

No...YOU confuse half a dozen others to make the claim that we dont have free will.
Without freedom to CHOOSE creation has no purpose.
I realize that statement is seemingly beyond comprehension for some, but read it a few times...let it sink in

just because God has these verses, does not mean you can perform them, apart from Him.

no no no....you JUST said in a previous post that GOD does not even have free will.
So this isnt in His lap either, apparently.

All our abilities to do His will comes from Him (Romans 11:36),

noooo..you JUST SAID God doesnt have free will....

bubba: "No Drew God does not have freewill, unless He is imperfect, a perfect God does not make imperfect decisions.

Please dont backpeddle or come up with some zany reasoning now...you made the statement.

our Lord stated we are to abide in Him, yet we are able to abide because of Him and apart from Him we can do nothing (John 15:1-5). Is this freewill?
Bubba

And since you claim GOD doesnt have free will...just who does HE not act apart from ????

 

[follower of Christ]

Can you describe one choice man can make that isn’t predicated on all those stimuli that preceded his decision? I can’t.
Bubba

Oh come on, dude...the stimuli gives CHOICE...it does NOT necessarily DICTATE the RESPONSE.

I had a guy at my door trying to break in on me a few years back.
I had a 357 magnum in my pocket and could CHOOSE to shoot the guy or not.
I CHOSE to push him back out the door onto his rear and close the door behind him.

Your logic is so horribly flawed that is a wonder even you can buy this nonsense.

 

[follower of Christ]

No, God being all knowing and morally good does not need “external agencies†to make choices and all His actions are “ultimately self-determinedâ€Â, by His perfect will (Eph.1:11, Eph. 2:10, Phil. 2:10).
Bubba

Nope....gent you JUST said God does not have free will.
Sorry but you cant have it both ways....
I'll remind you of your statement pretty much every time you make any assertions that seemingly make it seem like God can 'choose' anything....since apparently He is imperfect if He has free will...

bubba: "No Drew God does not have freewill, unless He is imperfect, a perfect God does not make imperfect decisions.

 

[Bubba]

Follower,
Again God does not have freewill He has a perfect will that flows out to His creation for our good. God does not need anyone or anything to pull His strings, even our prayers flow from whom He has made us to be. He is the Master String Puller, for He alone knows what is best for His children. In fact His creation of an Adversary, Satan is also one of the strings He uses for our ultimate benefit.
Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

Follower,
Again God does not have freewill

bubba,
again, God DOES have free will. He CHOSE to create man

He has a perfect will that flows out to His creation for our good.

Which has nothing to do with Him not having free will.
Perfection does not nullify freedom.

God does not need anyone or anything to pull His strings, even our prayers flow from whom He has made us to be. He is the Master String Puller, for He alone knows what is best for His children.

complete contradiction.
You just said God doesnt have free will..so He CANNOT be the sting puller, someone would have to be pulling His instead.

I know its annoying, bubba, but I will take any absurd thing you folks say to their illogical conclusion in order to show the readers here just how obscenely ridiculous your fallacy is.

In fact His creation of an Adversary, Satan is also one of the strings He uses for our ultimate benefit.
Bubba

Since you claim that God doesnt have free will, apparently HE doesnt 'use' Satan at all as He doesnt have that ability.

 

[Bubba]

Follower wrote:
“Oh come on, dude...the stimuli gives CHOICE...it does NOT necessarily DICTATE the RESPONSE.

I had a guy at my door trying to break in on me a few years back.
I had a 357 magnum in my pocket and could CHOOSE to shoot the guy or not.
I CHOSE to push him back out the door onto his rear and close the door behind him.

Your logic is so horribly flawed that is a wonder even you can buy this nonsense.â€Â
Bubba responds:
“I had a guy at my door trying to break in on me a few years back.â€Â
If you were born an Eskimo and lived in an Igloo would you even have a door to break into?
“I had a 357 magnum in my pocket and could CHOOSE to shoot the guy or not.â€Â
If your parents were pacifists and had also indoctrinated you against hand guns, would you even own one to defend yourself?
“I CHOSE to push him back out the door onto his rear and close the door behind him.â€Â
If you did not have a sense innate inward of sparing this man’s life, but had instead been subject to violence in the past, including physical harm from the same scenario and a great fear now ingrained in you to respond to this threat on your life, I think you would have probably shot him.
Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

Your logic is so horribly flawed that is a wonder even you can buy this nonsense.â€Â
Bubba responds:
“I had a guy at my door trying to break in on me a few years back.â€Â
If you were born an Eskimo and lived in an Igloo would you even have a door to break into?

Irrelevant.
Your distortion of the details doesnt remove the choice presented by the stimulus.

So Im an eskimo now and instead of an intruder in my apartment Im faced with another eskimo trying to push his way into my igloo. Do I shoot him or push him back out the door...hmmm.

I hope you have better than this, bubba.

“I had a 357 magnum in my pocket and could CHOOSE to shoot the guy or not.â€Â
If your parents were pacifists and had also indoctrinated you against hand guns, would you even own one to defend yourself?

Then my options may have been different....I could have pushed him out, punched him in the face, let him break in and kill, or made one of another dozen CHOICES.

“I CHOSE to push him back out the door onto his rear and close the door behind him.â€Â
If you did not have a sense innate inward of sparing this man’s life, but had instead been subject to violence in the past, including physical harm from the same scenario and a great fear now ingrained in you to respond to this threat on your life, I think you would have probably shot him.
Bubba

You think....and what you 'think' does not dictate my choice or nullify it.
There is no excuse from a persons past that removes their responsibility to make JUST discernments and choices in life.
I certainly hope that what you are saying here ISNT that if a man suffered sexual abuse as a child that hes only raping someone else because he was mistreated himself and thus making up excuses for HIS POOR CHOICE to repeat the cycle of abuse....you arent, right ?


.

 

[Drew]

Drew wrote:
“So the absence of clear scriptural assertions about man having free will is not evidence that the writers did not believe men have some degree of free will.â€Â
Can you describe one choice man can make that isn’t predicated on all those stimuli that preceded his decision? I can’t.
Bubba

Asking me this question is like asking me to address the "free will" question that has dogged manking for millenia. I think that the following is an accurate representation of the situation:

1. It is true that present scientific and metaphysical models support your (Bubba's) position;
2. However, the vast majority of humans believe in free will (that doesn't make it right, but it is an important item of information ;
3. We have no reason to believe that our scientific and metaphysical models are complete and correct.
4. So the issue of free will - from a purely "scientific / logical / metaphysical perspective is really very much an open question - I suspect that many experts (in these disciplines) believe in free will and would assert that we simply have not yet found a place for it in our present models. But that does not mean that we won't.

 

[follower of Christ]

Drew wrote:
“So the absence of clear scriptural assertions about man having free will is not evidence that the writers did not believe men have some degree of free will.â€Â
Can you describe one choice man can make that isn’t predicated on all those stimuli that preceded his decision? I can’t.
Bubba

Asking me this question is like asking me to address the "free will" question that has dogged manking for millenia. I think that the following is an accurate representation of the situation:

1. It is true that present scientific and metaphysical models support your (Bubba's) position;
2. However, the vast majority of humans believe in free will (that doesn't make it right, but it is an important item of information ;
3. We have no reason to believe that our scientific and metaphysical models are complete and correct.
4. So the issue of free will - from a purely "scientific / logical / metaphysical perspective is really very much an open question - I suspect that many experts (in these disciplines) believe in free will and would assert that we simply have not yet found a place for it in our present models. But that does not mean that we won't.

The irony of bubba's question is that the the only response that will actually line up with his doctrinal error is that mans abusive 'programming' leaves him (because he supposedly has no free will according to bubba) with no 'choice' but to repeat the abuse...ie he cannot help but rape someone else.

The question begs the excuse for the man who is sexually abused to go and rape others, oddly enough...given that these guys claim man has no free will to make choices, and with this new 'stimuli' fallacy added by bubba here.

 

[Vic C.]

Last night I went shopping. I used my debit card and wanted back $30. My choices were; $20, $40 and $50. So much for my free choice.

Just lightening things up a bit. ;)

 

[follower of Christ]

Last night I went shopping. I used my debit card and wanted back $30. My choices were; $20, $40 and $50. So much for my free choice.

Just lightening things up a bit. ;)

Actually that is pretty good
You had another choice...no cash back at all.

 

[Relic]

Last night I went shopping. I used my debit card and wanted back $30. My choices were; $20, $40 and $50. So much for my free choice.

Just lightening things up a bit. ;)

:biglol

The other day, I went shopping for a few things and walked past the icecream freezer. I couldn't reisist! I had to buy some ice cream, THEN I found myself in another predicament, I had to make a choice.... do I want the double chocolate, or the butter pecan? hmmmmm, I couldn't make up my mind! so I bought both! Now, that begs the question.... Did the devil make me do it? Or, did God force me to do it? OR, Did God give me the freedom to choose whichever I wanted, but also the common sense to NOT gorge on all of it at one time when I got it home? mmmmmm, Ice cream! :shades .

.

 

[Bubba]

The question begs the excuse for the man who is sexually abused to go and rape others, oddly enough...given that these guys claim man has no free will to make choices, and with this new 'stimuli' fallacy added by bubba here.

Follower,
We are all products of both positive and negative events that affect our lives; you seem to be hung up on the negative. God uses all those terrible as well as good things to cause us to grow. Even our Lord was drawn to the desert to be tempted and according to Hebrews 5:8, “Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect…†and through the trials of life God refines us in this age or the ages to come. As the illustration I used in respect to the Eskimo, he or she can not choose their birth place or ethnic race and for an Eskimo, or an Afghanistan person, their place of birth and race in and of itself can be a tough milieu.
Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

We are all products of both positive and negative events that affect our lives;

uh...yes....I know.
I spend a lot of time studying human behavior *edited* and I know that environmental factors affect personality, but that does NOT negate free will to choose.

you seem to be hung up on the negative.

And you seem to want to avoid it....why ? Because focusing on that aspect of it exposes your fallacy for what it is.

God uses all those terrible as well as good things to cause us to grow.

God does not ordain men raping children and the man who was sexually abused has NO excuse in doing so because his programming included sexual abuse when he was young.

I know men who were abused sexually as kids who used that fact to NEVER cause that pain to another human being.
And I know of those who were abused who made excuses to repeat the cycle of abuse.
In BOTH cases these men had the CHOICE before them and they made it.

 

[Bubba]

FOLLOWER WROTE:
“God does not ordain men raping children, gent, and the man who was sexual abused has NO excuse in doing so because his programming included sexual abuse when he was young.

I know men who were abused sexually as kids who used that fact to NEVER cause that pain to another human being.
And I know of those who were abused who made excuses to repeat the cycle of abuse.
In BOTH cases these men had the CHOICE before them and they made it.â€Â

Follower,
Those like myself who believe in a Sovereign God, where nothing happens before first coming from the counsel of His will (Eph.1:11 and Romans 11:36), would readily admit that this is difficult concept to adhere to, yet Scripture speaks over and over again of God ordaining evil to happen to people not unlike ourselves. Joseph and all the evil things that have happened to him come to climax with Genesis 50:20; “You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.†2 Samuel 24:1, we have David being “incited†by the Lord to take a census of the people of Israel and then held responsible for this action. In fact, God used Satan as a servant of His will (tool) to accomplish this act according to 1Chronicles 21:1. Though God used Satan to cause David to sin, Scripture never blames God, it never says Satan performed outside of the will of God and full responsibility is nonetheless upon David.The most horrific act ever happen upon our Saviour, but was completely orchestrated by God, in Acts 4:27-28 we read, “Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.†With this act of God He Himself takes responsibility as read in Isaiah 53:4, “Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.â€Â
Many believe Satan is the creator of evil, yet according to Isaiah 45:47, God is the creator of evil. Satan himself was created evil by God (John 8:44, 1John 3:8) as an adversary to that which is good. Satan never created anything, if he could have done something contrary to God only wanting good to exist in the beginning, than he would have been more powerful than God, by up-setting His original purpose.
A few weeks ago I read of a man in Florida tossing out an infant from a car window as he traveled down the freeway, you and I would agree that this was a terrible act. We would also agree that this man will be held accountable in this life and in the next. Where we would disagree, is that I believe that this evil act, nonetheless was ordained by God for the ultimate good for all parties (infant, man and all those affected by this evil deed). My view of Hell being remedial brings much solace when events like this happen, knowing that God has all of mankind’s best interest at the end of the ages. God is able to ordain evil to happen through man (and man is held culpable) in a way that for Himself is not evil, and because He is God and we are not, we must simply trust, that His realm is entirely different then our own. Yes a mystery exists in respect to His sovereignty of all events and our responsibility, but both are true.
Bubba