Does man have the free will choice to choose God?

[follower of Christ]

Follower,
Those like myself who believe in a Sovereign God,

No, you believe in a puppet master who dares not allow freedom because his plans might be thwarted if man can make his own choices.
What you call sovereign is simply a fearful god who has to maintain absolute control or he loses ALL control...

To be TRULY sovereign, free will MUST exist and the sovereign power have authority regardless of that free will..

 

[Bubba]

Follower,
Those like myself who believe in a Sovereign God,

No, you believe in a puppet master who dares not allow freedom because his plans might be thwarted if man can make his own choices.
What you call sovereign is simply a fearful god who has to maintain absolute control or he loses ALL control...

To be TRULY sovereign, free will MUST exist and the sovereign power have authority regardless of that free will..

Follower,
It is not what I think about God, but what Scripture says about Him.
Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

Follower,
It is not what I think about God, but what Scripture says about Him.
Bubba

youre right.
And you have yet to PROVE that it says what you folks claim that it says...

 

[Bubba]

As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed" (Acts 13:48).

"Attempts have been made to prove that these words do not teach predestination, but these attempts so clearly do violence to language that I shall not waste time in answering them. I read: 'As many as were ordained to eternal life believed,' and I shall not twist the text but shall glorify the grace of God by ascribing to that grace the faith of every man. Is it not God who gives the disposition to believe? If men are disposed to have eternal life, does not He-in every case-dispose them? Is it wrong for God to give grace? If it be right for Him to give it, is it wrong for Him to purpose to give it? Would you have Him give it by accident? If it is right for Him to purpose to give grace today, it was right for Him to purpose it before today-and, since He changes not-from eternity."
Charles Spurgeon

 

[follower of Christ]

As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed" (Acts 13:48).

"Attempts have been made to prove that these words do not teach predestination, but these attempts so clearly do violence to language that I shall not waste time in answering them.

Well, you wont waste your time for some reason...
The fact is that this PARTIAL verse youve offered DOESNT present the ENTIRE scope of evidence in the matter, B...and we've said this dozens of times already.

I can give you two CLEAR verses that I KNOW you will not obey even tho there isnt any exception given...
You will, as everyone always does, find some CONTEXT elsewhere to get out of obeying the CLEAR instruction in these...and you will be right in doing so BECAUSE, while they are CLEAR enough, they are NOT the ENTIRE range of relevant data in the matter.

Here goes.
Im ASKING you for $500...

(Luk 6:30 KJV) Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

(Mat 5:42 KJV) Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Now THAT is clear and NO exceptions are present in the texts.
Do you obey this CLEAR instruction since a man has asked of you...or do you context your way out of obeying ?

If you dont send me a check promptly, and believe me I dont expect you to, you will REFUTE your own logic above for your argument. I hope you understand that fact.

 

[Bubba]

Follower,
There are many aspects of God’s moral law that even the heathen and pagan are able to perform and this is due to God’s general grace given to all mankind. A could example is the love parents (normal parents) give their children naturally, or being benevolent to others (Mt.5:42, etc) and since all good gifts come from above, I give God the glory. In respect to our salvation this is not an ability we have, the “god of this world†has blinded us to the truth and God must intervene. The only real argument on this issue, is does man have the ability to say no to the Holy Spirit after being given revelation and I would say that he can not say no, because the individuals heart has been so renewed (Ezekiel 36:22ff , Eph. 2:1-7) that he will always say yes.
Until God changes our heart (I think Pink said this), we are like blind men walking to the edge of a cliff, where a sign tells us to beware (the “Lawâ€Â) and because we are spiritually blind we can not and will not heed the warning. In essense, the law can only be obeyed through God’s grace in both arena’s (everyday issues in how we behave with each other and belief in Jesus), one is a general grace and the other salvational grace.
Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

Follower,
There are many aspects of God’s moral law that even the heathen and pagan are able to perform and this is due to God’s general grace given to all mankind.

I agree that Gods 'law' is written in the hearts of many Gentile nations who do not have the law, if that is what you are referring to .
I do not agree, however, that this means that God is cranking out souls on an assembly line stamping 'heaven' or 'hell' on their foreheads.

A could example is the love parents (normal parents) give their children naturally, or being benevolent to others (Mt.5:42, etc) and since all good gifts come from above, I give God the glory.

He gets the glory in all things...including His giving man free will to make the choice to obey or continue in rebellion when He draws the man.

In respect to our salvation this is not an ability we have, the “god of this world†has blinded us to the truth and God must intervene.

Fallacious.
We are blinded UNTIL God draws...at THAT point WE decide to repent or continue in rebellion.

The only real argument on this issue, is does man have the ability to say no to the Holy Spirit after being given revelation and I would say that he can not say no, because the individuals heart has been so renewed (Ezekiel 36:22ff , Eph. 2:1-7) that he will always say yes.

And scriptures that tell us NOT to reject God and salvation prove your views wrong.
Shall I post some of them again ?

 

[Bubba]

Follower,
The problem as I see it here in the west, is that we struggle with the whole idea of paradox but those whom God spoke through to create His Word did not and accepted the mystery. Here is an example:

Isaiah 55:1-7
"Come, all you who are thirsty,
come to the waters;
and you who have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without cost.
2 Why spend money on what is not bread,
and your labor on what does not satisfy?
Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good,
and your soul will delight in the richest of fare.
3 Give ear and come to me;
hear me, that your soul may live.
I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
my faithful love promised to David.
4 See, I have made him a witness to the peoples,
a leader and commander of the peoples.
5 Surely you will summon nations you know not,
and nations that do not know you will hasten to you,
because of the LORD your God,
the Holy One of Israel,
for he has endowed you with splendor."
6 Seek the LORD while he may be found;
call on him while he is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way
and the evil man his thoughts.
Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.â€Â

The Word tells us to seek (the law)that is a fact, yet now read Romans 3:10-18:

“As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

We are not able to seek that which spiritual and true. Both passages are true and Isaiah let us know how we should receive this paradox:

8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.â€Â


As I wrote before, though God is sovereign and He does what He will with His creation, when it comes to sin we are nonetheless responsible, thus both concepts are true.
Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

Follower,
The problem as I see it here in the west, is that we struggle with the whole idea of paradox but those whom God spoke through to create His Word did not and accepted the mystery. Here is an example:

As I wrote before, though God is sovereign and He does what He will with His creation, when it comes to sin we are nonetheless responsible, thus both concepts are true.
Bubba

Guy, we can go thru this ten thousand more times....your PARTIAL evidence is NOT exhaustive.

And dont think that I missed the fact that you completely ignored my previous point to you... ;)

Here goes.
Im ASKING you for $500...
[quote:1gbzxu9m](Luk 6:30 KJV) Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

(Mat 5:42 KJV) Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Now THAT is clear and NO exceptions are present in the texts.
Do you obey this CLEAR instruction since a man has asked of you...or do you context your way out of obeying ?

If you dont send me a check promptly, and believe me I dont expect you to, you will REFUTE your own logic above for your argument. I hope you understand that fact. [/quote:1gbzxu9m]

 

[Bubba]

Guy, we can go thru this ten thousand more times....your PARTIAL evidence is NOT exhaustive.

And dont think that I missed the fact that you completely ignored my previous point to you...

Which previous point are you referring to? Because I thought I did answer your comment. Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

Guy, we can go thru this ten thousand more times....your PARTIAL evidence is NOT exhaustive.

And dont think that I missed the fact that you completely ignored my previous point to you...

Which previous point are you referring to? Because I thought I did answer your comment. Bubba

the one I just mentioned again

You ARENT giving the WHOLE scope of information...and what happens when we DONT is things like my demanding money from you using SOME CLEAR scriptures rather than harmonizing the whole, as your error does not do.

If I play the game like your fallacy does, then I can take those two CLEAR scriptures and demand money with them.
Thankfully they arent ALL of the data, and neither are your verses about predestination.


And let me say that in reading your post again, I see that you did EXACTLY what I figured you would.
you went to OTHER scriptures to get out of giving me the money I asked for.
Thats fine, I expected as much...but what youve done is blown your own argument apart about your previous post where you gave PART of ONE verse and then posted the words of a commentator who apparenlty is trying to read absolute predestination into that PARTIAL verse instead of harmonizing it with the REST of the relevant data.

 

[Bubba]

Follower,
My last couple of posts make perfect sense to me, you have "Law" verses and "Grace" verses, you perseverate on the "Law". Do you think the verses you can keep or perform comes from your own ability? When you read Romans 3:ff that says no one understands or seeks after God, do you not believe it? You gravitate to the "law" passages like those you mentioned earlier and Isaiah 55:1-7, that I used to describe the paradoxes of Scripture. You will never find harmony with this sort of pick and choose outlook on Scripture.
Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

Follower,
My last couple of posts make perfect sense to me,

Im certain that they do given that you are looking at them thru the lense of your doctrinal views.
To me they are just excuses to keep from accepting the WHOLE truth.

you have "Law" verses and "Grace" verses, you perseverate on the "Law". Do you think the verses you can keep or perform comes from your own ability?

Please.
This is about CHOICE...not saving myself. STop distracting with irrelevance.

When you read Romans 3:ff that says no one understands or seeks after God, do you not believe it?

Again, WHEN God draws THEN the man is given CHOICE to repent or continue in rebellion....this destraction isnt going to work with me bubba...I assure you that Im very one tracked minded.

You gravitate to the "law" passages like those you mentioned earlier and Isaiah 55:1-7, that I used to describe the paradoxes of Scripture. You will never find harmony with this sort of pick and choose outlook on Scripture.
Bubba

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black

 

[Bubba]

I

assure you that Im very one tracked minded.

Finally we agree on something, but I am sure one day you will see things in a whole new light, though at this point in your pilgrimage, I know you think very little of my opinion. Yet, hey this forum would be boring if we didn't have something to debate about in this realm.
Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

Finally we agree on something,

And you can also rest assured that because I am this way that Im not going to be duped into your error as easily as you may have hoped...nor will the membership here be.

but I am sure one day you will see things in a whole new light, though at this point in your pilgrimage,

Ive already been involved in your predestination error years ago, friend, and left it in the dust when I found the REAL MEAT of the word...as you will hopefully do one day soon.

I know you think very little of my opinion.

I think little of all false doctrines that pervert and distort Gods word and make Him out to be some monster that ordains the rape of innocent women and children.

 

[Bubba]

think little of all false doctrines that pervert and distort Gods word and make Him out to be some monster that ordains the rape of innocent women and children.

Follower,
You seem very fixated on these particular atrocities, how about murdering someone’s wife and kids (God speaking “have you considered my servant Job?â€Â, “do what you want with what’s his, just do not kill him†speaking to Satan), or taking your brother and throwing him in a pit to die (Joseph speaking, “you meant this for evil but God meant it for good), or how about giving the King of Israel a evil spirit (Saul) or placing a whole people group under a “spirit of stupor†for they would not believe in Jesus (Romans 11), or how about orchestrating the terrible abuse and murder of your own Son (Jesus). Sorry my friend, Scripture is clear; you just refuse to see that God uses evil, even terrible evils such as these that we (mankind) would benefit now and at the end of all things. As Isaiah said, “His ways are not our ways†and yet He will bring us all to Himself in love, that’s Scripture and hopefully someday you will know, preferably in this life.
Bubba

 

[Bubba]

Follower,
Those like myself who believe in a Sovereign God, where nothing happens before first coming from the counsel of His will (Eph.1:11 and Romans 11:36), would readily admit that this is difficult concept to adhere to, yet Scripture speaks over and over again of God ordaining evil to happen to people not unlike ourselves. Joseph and all the evil things that have happened to him come to climax with Genesis 50:20; “You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.†2 Samuel 24:1, we have David being “incited†by the Lord to take a census of the people of Israel and then held responsible for this action. In fact, God used Satan as a servant of His will (tool) to accomplish this act according to 1Chronicles 21:1. Though God used Satan to cause David to sin, Scripture never blames God, it never says Satan performed outside of the will of God and full responsibility is nonetheless upon David.The most horrific act ever happen upon our Saviour, but was completely orchestrated by God, in Acts 4:27-28 we read, “Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.†With this act of God He Himself takes responsibility as read in Isaiah 53:4, “Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.â€Â
Many believe Satan is the creator of evil, yet according to Isaiah 45:47, God is the creator of evil. Satan himself was created evil by God (John 8:44, 1John 3:8) as an adversary to that which is good. Satan never created anything, if he could have done something contrary to God only wanting good to exist in the beginning, than he would have been more powerful than God, by up-setting His original purpose.
A few weeks ago I read of a man in Florida tossing out an infant from a car window as he traveled down the freeway, you and I would agree that this was a terrible act. We would also agree that this man will be held accountable in this life and in the next. Where we would disagree, is that I believe that this evil act, nonetheless was ordained by God for the ultimate good for all parties (infant, man and all those affected by this evil deed). My view of Hell being remedial brings much solace when events like this happen, knowing that God has all of mankind’s best interest at the end of the ages. God is able to ordain evil to happen through man (and man is held culpable) in a way that for Himself is not evil, and because He is God and we are not, we must simply trust, that His realm is entirely different then our own. Yes a mystery exists in respect to His sovereignty of all events and our responsibility, but both are true.
Bubba

Just in case you didn't read the first time I posted it. Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

Follower,
You seem very fixated on these particular atrocities, how about murdering someone’s wife and kids

How about showing the atrocities you folks blame on God ?

(God speaking “have you considered my servant Job?â€Â,

Sorry gent but that DOESNT SAY that GOD CAUSED Satan to do any of these things.
Not even a good try.

or taking your brother and throwing him in a pit to die (Joseph speaking, “you meant this for evil but God meant it for good),

Again, nothing shows that GOD CAUSED this to happen.

or how about giving the King of Israel a evil spirit (Saul) or placing a whole people group under a “spirit of stupor†for they would not believe in Jesus (Romans 11),

And whats the rest of the story ?
WHEN MEN CHOOSE to WANT a lie, God will give them delusion and error...

or how about orchestrating the terrible abuse and murder of your own Son (Jesus).

please
Jesus did what He did of His OWN FREE WILL to....this is getting pathetic.

Sorry my friend, Scripture is clear;

Your right, it IS clear...and you persist in perverting the intent of it in vain.

you just refuse to see that God uses evil,

God uses evil WHEN MEN CHOOSE evil... He doesnt CHOOSE that path for them.


We done here ?

 

[follower of Christ]

Just in case you didn't read the first time I posted it. Bubba

just in case you didnt read these the first time I posted them...


Mans choice to sin

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them.
Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Let it not be! We who died to sin, how shall we still live in it? Or are you ignorant that all who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life.

For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, so also shall we be in the resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified,so that we no longer serve sin. For the one that died has been justified from sin.

But if we died with Christ, we believe that also we shall live with Him, knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death no longer lords it over Him. For in that He died, He died to sin once for all; but in that He lives, He lives to God. So also you count yourselves to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Then do not let sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its lusts.
Neither present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as one living from the dead, and your members instruments of righteousness to God. For your sin shall not lord it over you, for you are not under Law, but under grace.

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Law, but under grace? Let it not be!

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or obedience to righteousness?

But thanks be to God that you were slaves of sin, but you obeyed from the heart the form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
And having been set free from sin, you were enslaved to righteousness.
I speak as a man on account of the weakness of your flesh. For as you presented your members as slaves to uncleanness and to lawless act unto lawless act, so now yield your members as slaves to righteousness unto sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free as to righteousness.

Therefore what fruit did you have then in the things over which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now having been set free from sin, and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Rom 6:1-23 LITV)

"Thy people shall be willing"
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To further show the free will of man

Supporting Evidence
The 'free will' offering was mentioned a time or two in scripture, so I got to looking to see if this word was presented in any context other than an offering

H5071
נדב×â€
nedâbâh
BDB Definition:
1) voluntariness, free-will offering
1a) voluntariness
1b) freewill, voluntary, offering
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H5068
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1299a

Oddly there are verses that contain it that show it relating to God....and some also to MAN outside of offerings..

Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
(Psalms 110:3 KJV)

"People shall be WILLING".
Same root word "nedâbâh" that is used for free will offerings in many other verses.
Apparently even OUTSIDE of offerings the word IS USED concerning man.
And what is interesting in the passage above is how the word is used and what the verse says.

A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
(Psalms 110:1-3 KJV)

Just as PAUL shows in Romans 6, we willingly SUBMIT ourselves....
His people WILLINGLY subject themselves to His rule. They dont have to be forced as some falsely preach here.

The word is also used here in reference to GOD whom we KNOW has free will....

I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
(Hosea 14:4 KJV)

In the SAME manner that GOD FREELY loves them MAN can FREELY be willing to subject himself to Gods rule...



Mans limited free will
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that it is impossible that God forcibly 'controls' the actions of all men and women.

Supporting Evidence.
Here we see Jesus telling Peter that he would deny Him three times before the next morning came.

Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
(Mat 26:34 KJV)

G720
á¼€ÃÂνέομαι
arneomai
ar-neh'-om-ahee
Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the middle of G4483; to contradict, that is, disavow, reject, abnegate: - deny, refuse.

Now, some false doctrines teach that God 'controls' mans actions and that man has no free will of himself.
One internet source I recent came across said this

Forum poster: "And here is an example of God's will:
34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

So in this persons mind GOD is the source of Peters denying Christ. Rather than simply understanding that God foreknew it would happen, this person and their doctrine basically say that Peter did it for lack of choice in the matter. Meaning that GOD had to be the one causing Peter to deny Christ, ie God 'denied' Himself THROUGH the man Peter.
Im certain few will agree to the obvious conclusion, that their doctrinal view states that, but the conclusion is clear enough.

But we see that scripture says that He CANNOT deny Himself.

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
(2Ti 2:12-13 KJV)


G533
ἀÀαÃÂνέομαι
aparneomai
ap-ar-neh'-om-ahee
From G575 and G720; to deny utterly, that is, disown, abstain: - deny.

Notice that 'deny' in the second verse is from G720, the word used in the first verse cited, so these words are very much related in intent. They arent two entirely different concepts.

Christ is faithful. GOD is faithful. He CANNOT deny Himself....yet *IF* these false doctrines were true then we have a situation where GOD is directly 'denying' Himself THROUGH Peter *IF* GOD is controlling Peter in any way. This simply cannot be the case given that God CANNOT deny Himself.

God CANNOT go against His own nature and He cannot lie.

in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time itself,
(Tit 1:2 EMTV)

So it is against His nature to deny Himself, therefore He was not causing Peter to deny Him. He simply foreknew that it would occur.

 

[follower of Christ]

Just in case you missed these the first time I posted them ...



DOES man have the CHOICE to REJECT God ?
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this article
Simply to show that scripture does support the idea that man does have free will to reject God both before and after having come under this covenant.

Supporting Evidence

See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:21

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Heb 10:26-39 KJV)

The statement "we are not of them who draw back unto perdition" is entirely absurd *IF* 'them' had not actually 'draw back' to perdition.
And the writers EXHORTATION TO these believing Hebrews is VOID of ANY and ALL meaning in REFERRING to these who had 'DRAWN BACK' in his warning to these believers *IF* they could not do the very same thing.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame . For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
(Heb 6:4-9 KJV)

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
(Heb 3:1-19 KJV)

All things are not by Gods counsel

I agree with *******, we cannot use human logic to solve this. The Bible is clear about God being sovereign in all things.

Eph 1:11 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;

"All things" include your choices. There is nothing, whatsoever that falls outside of "all things"

Hitting on this again to destroy this absurd "all things" nonsense....

So, by your, *****and ******'s views here ALL things are by HIS counsel...isnt that right ?
Please do NOT backpeddle now...any of you three.

So this means that even things such as FEAR and CONFUSION would ALSO be included in 'ALL THINGS'....again, please dont make yourself look bad by backpeddling now....

1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,

For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
(2 Timothy 1:7 EMTV)

So VERY clearly there are at least TWO 'things' that God does NOT cause...does NOT 'purpose' ....does NOT foreordain....or these two passages would be lies.