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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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F
follower of Christ
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- #82
AGAIN...What point ?Benoni said:
That man has free will ? >>>> http://studies.assembly-ministries.org/ ... f=30&t=257
That man can reject salvation ? >>> http://studies.assembly-ministries.org/ ... f=30&t=181
And youre right.
I knew the moment I saw this thread that this was just another podium for you.
DS needs to be told to stop making these hit and run threads...
F
follower of Christ
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- #84
Show us 'full salvation' from scripture and then show us how a man isnt either born again or not.Benoni said:
F
follower of Christ
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- Thread starter
- #86
Im not interested in what is blatantly wrong, thats for certain.Benoni said:
We done here ?
This is getting tiresome.
What most called saved is justification by faith, not full salvation. Salvation as you most call it is more like justification of your faith a good example would be the thief on the cross.
Heb 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;
and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
(KJV)
Amplified Bible says full salvation
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Heb. 9: 28
Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and once for all, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, but to bring to full salvation those who are [eagerly, constantly, and patiently] waiting for and expecting Him.
Philippians 3:13-15 (King James Version)
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Heb 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;
and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
(KJV)
Amplified Bible says full salvation
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Heb. 9: 28
Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and once for all, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, but to bring to full salvation those who are [eagerly, constantly, and patiently] waiting for and expecting Him.
Philippians 3:13-15 (King James Version)
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
F
follower of Christ
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- Thread starter
- #89
Strawman yet again.Benoni said:
Read this VERY slowly, this time it may actually sink in.
WHEN GOD DRAWS THEN MAN HAS THE CHOICE OFFERED TO HIM TO REPENT OR CONTINUE TO REBEL
F
follower of Christ
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- Thread starter
- #91
Oh brother. So now youve created different grades of salvationBenoni said:
Salvation as Gods WORD calls it is being sanctified by the blood of Christ....either a person IS or they ARENT....
uh.....yeah.... :crazy
And thats why we dont use one bible version.
Bibles have to be so much different from all others to be able to be copyrighted....some translators just throw in meaningless words so they can get a copyright. Its something that bible scholars complain about, as Im sure you already know.
So the addition or omission of 'full' is meaningless when compared to the context of the whole where salvation is concerned.
Just one more reason we dont based doctrine on ONE word.
READERS SEE >>> Hebrews 9:28
That shows that the word 'full' isnt actually in the text there in Hebrews...
Likely it was added to get the copyright...
F
follower of Christ
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- #92
Again. we dont based doctrine on ONE word, but instead on context of the WHOLE....read my signature....it doesnt say play games with words but to study...Benoni said:Wrong,,,, The word draw means force... How can you choose when you are forced. GOODNIGT...
D
Dave Slayer
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- #93
follower of Christ said:
No offense taken. I just didn't realize or perhaps take the time to look and see if there were other threads about this topic. I was surprised to come home from work about 7 hours after I posted this topic to see the thread was 7 pages long. I guess that shows it was something worth discussing. I wonder why the other 3 or 4 threads of this same nature didn't have as many responses as this one does?
I apologize for starting a new thread about this.
D
Dave Slayer
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- #94
follower of Christ said:Again. we dont based doctrine on ONE word, but instead on context of the WHOLE....read my signature....it doesnt say play games with words but to study...Benoni said:Wrong,,,, The word draw means force... How can you choose when you are forced. GOODNIGT...
I interpret the word "draw" to mean God calling those whom are His. God will not force anyone to choose, but I believe God will open our hearts so that we will choose. But that isn't the same thing as being forced.
What I believe is carnal man can choose many things, but he cannot choose his salvation; it takes God’s Spirit to draw us, quicken us then and only then can we believe. (Eph. 2) This is the overall view of what has taken place; I have stated there is not one verse in the Bible that states that man has a freewill or choice when it comes to salvation. Follower on the other hand does not agree so he has posted anything and everything that has the words “will, choose, as well as the freewill offering in the OT; but none of this verse has anything to with salvation.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):
The words translated "draw" and "drew" in the Greek New Testament are HELKUO and HELKO. Each of these words has the basic meaning of "compel ... .. draw," "pull," and "tug." In most instances the force which does the drawing or compelling is sufficient to cause the object of the drawing to respond fully. For example, in Jn. 18:10, it is said that "Peter having a sword DREW it..." The impetuous disciple most assuredly did not draw the weapon out of its sheath in a gingerly or wooing fashion. Nor did the sword seek to draw itself out by its own will and good pleasure! Peter didn't merely "invite" the sword to come out, in spite of any resistance the blade may have had as it dragged the leather scabbard, the muscular arm of Peter yanked it forcefully out in obedience to his will.
Eight times the word draw is used in the Bible and never is there any indication of choice. The irresistible power of God’s Spirit drawing us is not such a evil thing as Believer tries to make it sound.
Eph. 2 lays out the context of how man is saved by God's irresistible power and this has nothing to do with man choosing or having faith until God draws us quickens us first.
Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
(Eph. 6:17). Then the writer to the Hebrews declares that the sword of God’s word is "QUICK ."Quick means living and active  LIFE-GIVING! "For the word of God that speaks is alive and full of power  making it active, operative, energizing and effective; it is sharper than any two-edged sword" (Heb. 4:12, Amplified).
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast
Now if believer would just produce a verse which he cannot then this whole matter can be put to rest. He is trying to force God's Word to say what he wants it to say. Might work for a lot of people but it does not work for me.
Actually it is two words, “quicken, and drawâ€Â. I have showed the context of these verses as well how they are defined. I have demonstrated how the word draw is written in the scriptures in different passages, and in context; plus I have quoted the Greek in both words. You’re the one who cannot product one verse to prove man has a freewill or choice when it comes to His own salvation. I have even agreed with you that carnal man is free to sin, buy a car or what every he wants to do when it comes to small matters. But he did not choose his parents, his color of skin or his country; and he sure did not choose his salvation.
Your so called "context of whole" which you claim you have posted, has nothing to do with man having a freewill or choice towards his salvation.
If this is true stop playing games and get down to business and show me?
I did not know you were a KJ only... Now I understand.
Bibles have to be so much different from all others to be able to be copyrighted....some translators just throw in meaningless words so they can get a copyright. Its something that bible scholars complain about, as Im sure you already know.
So the addition or omission of 'full' is meaningless when compared to the context of the whole where salvation is concerned.
Just one more reason we dont based doctrine on ONE word.
READERS SEE >>> Hebrews 9:28
That shows that the word 'full' isnt actually in the text there in Hebrews...
Likely it was added to get the copyright...[/quote:qd1ioami]
uh.....yeah.... :crazyfollower of Christ said:Oh brother. So now youve created different grades of salvationBenoni said:
Salvation as Gods WORD calls it is being sanctified by the blood of Christ....either a person IS or they ARENT....
[quote:qd1ioami]Heb 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;
and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
(KJV)
And thats why we dont use one bible version.
Bibles have to be so much different from all others to be able to be copyrighted....some translators just throw in meaningless words so they can get a copyright. Its something that bible scholars complain about, as Im sure you already know.
So the addition or omission of 'full' is meaningless when compared to the context of the whole where salvation is concerned.
Just one more reason we dont based doctrine on ONE word.
READERS SEE >>> Hebrews 9:28
That shows that the word 'full' isnt actually in the text there in Hebrews...
Likely it was added to get the copyright...[/quote:qd1ioami]
Dave Slayer said:
No offense taken. I just didn't realize or perhaps take the time to look and see if there were other threads about this topic. I was surprised to come home from work about 7 hours after I posted this topic to see the thread was 7 pages long. I guess that shows it was something worth discussing. I wonder why the other 3 or 4 threads of this same nature didn't have as many responses as this one does?
I apologize for starting a new thread about this.[/quote:2zrtf55s]
No need for an apology. You did nothing wrong. Ask the Mods if you violated any rules. I doubt they will say you are in any fault. I have never seen the mods locking down threads because they have duplicate topics. There are duplicate topics all over the place on many subjects. I do observe them locking down threads where people begin to use insulting language, or degrading other people.
I agree, post any topic anyting you want too, how else can truth be exposted; lets talk about it instead of close our minds to it.
Some people will use insults and language so they can get a thread locked down becasus they are lost for words and cannot defend the undefendable.
Some people will use insults and language so they can get a thread locked down becasus they are lost for words and cannot defend the undefendable.
Dave Slayer said:[quote="follower of Christ":oqwbusq5]Again. we dont based doctrine on ONE word, but instead on context of the WHOLE....read my signature....it doesnt say play games with words but to study...Benoni said:Wrong,,,, The word draw means force... How can you choose when you are forced. GOODNIGT...
I interpret the word "draw" to mean God calling those whom are His. God will not force anyone to choose, but I believe God will open our hearts so that we will choose. But that isn't the same thing as being forced.[/quote:oqwbusq5]
Dave, I suspect we are not that far apart. I would agree that the word "draw" refers to God calling those who are his. In fact the context suggests the very thing you say. Does not verse 37 say this very thing?
John 6:37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
In verse 36 Jesus complains that the Jews saw Christ, and still do not believe. Why? Why could they see the very Son of God and still not believe? Verse 37 begins the answer. They were not given to the Son.
So then, a Jew cannot believe unless the Father gave them to the Son.
I think verse 44 explains verse 37. What does this giving entail? It speaks of the result of that "giving" in verse 37. Verse 37 happens in eternity past. Then in time, during the persons life, the Father sovereignty draws only those selected.
The thing that I think this thread is missing is the concept of regeneration. Part (not the whole) of this drawing is that the Father sends the Holy Spirit to regenerate some. After that spark of regeneration, the chosen come running to Christ in faith.
I will admit that part of verse 44 and the drawing refers to "force." Regeneration is not done by the will of man (John 1:13) but by the will of God. Regeneration was done when we were yet rebels. We hated God and his ways. We did not choose to be regenerated. We were rebels to the core. Sin nature ruled, and we were slaves to our sin (Romans 6:17). We were dead in our sins and trespasses (Ephesians 2:1).
On the other hand, after regeneration, did we choose to come to Christ? Oh yes, we came running of our own will. We chose! Then we wanted Christ! We heard the Gospel and it was for us. There was no dragging, no force used at this time. After regeneration, when we heard the Gospel, we wanted it with our own wills.
When Romans 3:11 says that there is none that seeks God....
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God; I think this is referring to people in their natural, Adamic, carnal, sinful state. Before regeneration we do not seek God. John 6:44 speaks of this time when it says "no man can come to me." Without the finger of God in regeneration, we remain rebels, trespassers, sinners. After the finger of God lays the spark of regeneration, there is no force, their is only the gentle nudging of sending someone to preach the gospel, and show us the word of God.
If the word "draw" refers to regeneration, the word "drag" would be OK. If the word "draw" refers to more then regeneration, I think the word "draw" is correct. While benoni mentioned the use of the same word in John 18 and Peter and his sword as an illustration of the meaning of the word, and that was fair, yet I think the context defines the use of the word right in John 6.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me.
I think Jesus quotes this verse right after his statement about drawing to define the concept of drawing. He quotes this OT verse and defines drawing as "heard from the Father and hath learned." This group is the group that "cometh unto me." Of course the words "cometh unto me" go back to John 6:37. The group that is given to the Son, is drawn by the Father by the Fathers own special interest in this group.
Now there is a potential problem here. in a different context it says....
1Cor 2:14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
So then there is a problem. If the natural man cannot receive the things of God, how then will the Father teach (draw) the ones chosen and given to the Son in John 6:37? The answer of course is he changes their nature (regeneration) so that they will want to come to the Son.
All this is to say that I think you are on the right path and we are not far apart.
Church time, gotta go.