drunkeness

[GodsGrace]

I think Paul was promoting living at peace with one another. If a brother/sister in Christ is abstaining from alcohol for some reason, don't boast that you can drink. We all have been given what we've been given in Christ. It's not about the food or drink but what the Spirit allows that individual.

Amen Sister LovethroughDove.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Refer to my post to wondering. I said it would matter if a Christian whose faith is weak also knew I was a Christian.
And what is that weak Christian doing in an establishment he thinks I should not be in??????

By the way, I'm thinking hard about when and where I was eating in an establishment that served alcohol. I don't gravitate towards that kind of atmosphere.

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

I never said that the weaker brother was in the establishment. What I said was " the weak in faith believe that you should not patronize those establishments.

In the area that I live in most, if not all, serve alcohol. Does that mean that I should never go out to eat? What crowd did Jesus usually eat with? Was it not sinners and publicans?

 

[GodsGrace]

I kinda get the impression some of us see

Mat_18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mar_9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Luk_17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

while others see

1Co_10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Hi Reba,
I see both.
The first refer to treating people who love Jesus fairly and not doing any harm to them.
As to the second, I like to be careful about that one or it may sound like we could do whatever we want to if it seems alright to us. This is not right.

I think we can get carried away with anything.
Smoke was bad for us so cigarettes became a death threat. (which I agree to, I don't smoke)
I knew fat would be next. Then carbs. Now it's something else.

So, yes. I hate to be on that path.
Everything in moderation seems good to me.
Plus, if you don't drink wine here with meals, they think you're sick (physically).
One glass, each meal.
(of course I have 10 meals a day!!!)
Just kidding!!

Wondering

 

[dirtfarmer]

I kinda get the impression some of us see

Mat_18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mar_9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Luk_17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

while others see

1Co_10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Hello Reba, dirtfarmer here

Matthew, Mark, and Luke, were written the earthly kingdom conditions. 1 Corinthians was written to those in the body of Christ. The difference is that those of the earthly kingdom have to endure until the end to be save, but the body of Christ is already a citizen of heaven and are only pilgrims and strangers on earth.

 

[reba]

Hello dirtfarmer

We are going to disagree on the dividing up the Scriptures ..
2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

wondering i too see both

 

[dirtfarmer]

Hello dirtfarmer

We are going to disagree on the dividing up the Scriptures ..
2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

wondering i too see both

hello Reba, dirtfarmer here

We both have made our beliefs known before. So, I agree to disagree. The most important, we agree: The death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Hi Reba,
I see both.
The first refer to treating people who love Jesus fairly and not doing any harm to them.
As to the second, I like to be careful about that one or it may sound like we could do whatever we want to if it seems alright to us. This is not right.

I think we can get carried away with anything.
Smoke was bad for us so cigarettes became a death threat. (which I agree to, I don't smoke)
I knew fat would be next. Then carbs. Now it's something else.

So, yes. I hate to be on that path.
Everything in moderation seems good to me.
Plus, if you don't drink wine here with meals, they think you're sick (physically).
One glass, each meal.
(of course I have 10 meals a day!!!)
Just kidding!!

Wondering

I stand on this next to you. I love that you included all things in moderation. While there is not onje scripture it is indeed a principal that is taught. (Ecc. 3:1-8, Eph. 5:18, 1Cor. 6:12, 1Cor, 6:19-20, 1Tim. 2:5, 1Pet. 5:8, and Phil. 4:5)

 

[civilwarbuff]

Did you not read the verse I posted (Romans 14:22 NIV)? Paul says keep it a secret.
The whole chapter is about not doing it, or keeping it a secret, rather than risk causing a weaker brother to stumble. But perhaps we don't really care about that--our rights and liberties and our personal tastes come first?

It says far more than that and right at the start of the chapter:
Romans 14
1 Receive him that is weak in the faith, but not for passing judgment.
2 For one believes that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eats herbs.
3 Let not him that eats despise him that eats not; and let not him who eats not judge him that eats: for God has received him.
4 Who are you that judge another man's servant? to his own master he stands or falls. Yea, he shall be held up: for God is able to make him stand. KJ2000

 

[Papa Zoom]

True except for a recovering alcoholic. One drink can put him/her back on the road to destruction.

Very true. I don't have a drinking problem so my understanding of it is limited. But there is alcoholism in my family and I see its destruction. My daughter's marriage fell apart over it.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Very true. I don't have a drinking problem so my understanding of it is limited. But there is alcoholism in my family and I see its destruction. My daughter's marriage fell apart over it.

As I stated, my position is the same as Wondering but not for myself. I am botn of and raise by alcoholics and I am one. Others can drink around me but I am on an Eternal Beer and Spirits Fast.

 

[Northman]

Literally?

Sorry I'm not understanding. Literally He was not going to be drinking anymore with them or literally He was planning on drinking again with them in His father's Kingdom? Or literally something else?

 

[Wrg1405]

To be honest I don't think that the church should insist that certain things should not be done if it is not a sin.

With regards to alcohol it is down to the individual whether they drink alcohol or not.

I further think that we should not regard someone more righteous because they choose not to drink alcohol than one who does. One who abstains from alcohol because they think it's a sin, is surely by their actions judging someone who does and does not consider it a sin. And vice versa.

Romans 14:1-4
The Law of Liberty
Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

There is much talk above about the weaker brother and it does mention drinking along with the Lords day.

The whole premise of Romans 14 is

Romans 14:17-19
for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another.

Romans 14:21-23
It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

So I think that it is not wrong that if you eat and drink something that someone thinks is wrong , then do it in private. But I don't think it's something you should hide given verses 1-4 above. So the balance is needed in verses 21-23.

Yes I agree that our liberty should not be used for licentious.

Paul addressed this in

Romans 6:1
Dead to Sin, Alive to God
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?

Romans 6:15
From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Only drunkards worship alcohol.

Wondering I have quoted your above post. The reason for doing so is because I don't actually think it's totally correct, and please note I'm not getting at you. You are my precious sister and friend.

To me for the majority of people this is not the case. Most drunkards don't worship alcohol but it is an escape from the reality of their life. It's a coping mechanism. It's a place they go to, a place where for a few hours they can ecape the horrors that life has dealt them.

People both beleivers and non beleivers will struggle with things in their lives as a form of escape or just to function.

Yes I think believers can walk in the ways as non beleivers, a hangover before they became believers.
That doesn't mean that they are abusing their freedom but they don't know that freedom is theirs to claim.
What is needed? Healing from the cell they are in, that's the same for non believers.

If that's the case it needs solid wisdom filled Christians to come alongside them, no judgment/condemnation.
We as believers should also do the same for non believers.

Let's take it a level up.

Escaping from reality of life.

Alcohol
Eating
Shopping
Gambling
Fornication
Falsehood
Television
Music
Money
Status
Adultery
Chocolate (one for the ladies)
Gossip

So if anyone falls foul of the above it's not necessarily worship of it.

My experience was with gambling.
I hated gambling yet I gambled. I lost big I won big. Either way I felt the same, BAD and a sinner. I even prayed in the doorsteps of the gambling establishment I went into that I would not go in.

In fact and this is true. I would actually find myself in a slot machine place and had no recollection of going to it.
Anyway it was my coping mechanism, escape from the harsh reality that my life had dealt me which I will not go into.

Praise God he healed me and I've not gambled for the last 5 years. What helped me was a lovely believer who came alongside me, no judgement, acknowledged that all people have things in their lives, God understands and wants to heal the reasons why I was doing this.

Oops sorry long post.

I'd like to finish with saying we live in a sin sick world. No one is perfect whether beleivers or not.
We should not judge. Be willing to listen and walk as the Holy Spirit would have us walk.

My limited thoughts

 

[GodsGrace]

To be honest I don't think that the church should insist that certain things should not be done if it is not a sin.

With regards to alcohol it is down to the individual whether they drink alcohol or not.

I further think that we should not regard someone more righteous because they choose not to drink alcohol than one who does. One who abstains from alcohol because they think it's a sin, is surely by their actions judging someone who does and does not consider it a sin. And vice versa.

Romans 14:1-4
The Law of Liberty
Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

There is much talk above about the weaker brother and it does mention drinking along with the Lords day.

The whole premise of Romans 14 is

Romans 14:17-19
for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another.

Romans 14:21-23
It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

So I think that it is not wrong that if you eat and drink something that someone thinks is wrong , then do it in private. But I don't think it's something you should hide given verses 1-4 above. So the balance is needed in verses 21-23.

Yes I agree that our liberty should not be used for licentious.

Paul addressed this in

Romans 6:1
Dead to Sin, Alive to God
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?

Romans 6:15
From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!




Wondering I have quoted your above post. The reason for doing so is because I don't actually think it's totally correct, and please note I'm not getting at you. You are my precious sister and friend.

To me for the majority of people this is not the case. Most drunkards don't worship alcohol but it is an escape from the reality of their life. It's a coping mechanism. It's a place they go to, a place where for a few hours they can ecape the horrors that life has dealt them.

People both beleivers and non beleivers will struggle with things in their lives as a form of escape or just to function.

Yes I think believers can walk in the ways as non beleivers, a hangover before they became believers.
That doesn't mean that they are abusing their freedom but they don't know that freedom is theirs to claim.
What is needed? Healing from the cell they are in, that's the same for non believers.

If that's the case it needs solid wisdom filled Christians to come alongside them, no judgment/condemnation.
We as believers should also do the same for non believers.

Let's take it a level up.

Escaping from reality of life.

Alcohol
Eating
Shopping
Gambling
Fornication
Falsehood
Television
Music
Money
Status
Adultery
Chocolate (one for the ladies)
Gossip

So if anyone falls foul of the above it's not necessarily worship of it.

My experience was with gambling.
I hated gambling yet I gambled. I lost big I won big. Either way I felt the same, BAD and a sinner. I even prayed in the doorsteps of the gambling establishment I went into that I would not go in.

In fact and this is true. I would actually find myself in a slot machine place and had no recollection of going to it.
Anyway it was my coping mechanism, escape from the harsh reality that my life had dealt me which I will not go into.

Praise God he healed me and I've not gambled for the last 5 years. What helped me was a lovely believer who came alongside me, no judgement, acknowledged that all people have things in their lives, God understands and wants to heal the reasons why I was doing this.

Oops sorry long post.

I'd like to finish with saying we live in a sin sick world. No one is perfect whether beleivers or not.
We should not judge. Be willing to listen and walk as the Holy Spirit would have us walk.

My limited thoughts

Wrg,
I agree with everything you've said and, as usual, you've said it beautifully.

I'd like only to say that when I say that drunkards worship alcohol, I mean that they love it more than God.
When we worship something, we love it more than we love God.

Your list of escapes is a well-thought out one. So I do like the idea of the difference between worship and escape.
I like watching movies and MAYBE use them for escape (or relaxation, same thing?) but I do not worship them.

Great post.

Wondering

 

[Papa Zoom]

As I stated, my position is the same as Wondering but not for myself. I am botn of and raise by alcoholics and I am one. Others can drink around me but I am on an Eternal Beer and Spirits Fast.

If I do drink, I always limit myself to just one. Even at home. It's just a thing I do. My last beer was Dec 27 at the family get together. Just a 1/2 beer at that. It's all I can really handle. But on hot summer days after working in the yard, a cold beer is nice. But still just one. I'm a super lightweight. Never hard drink. Never wine. Can't stand either. Dark beer only. A six pack can last me months

 

[Jethro Bodine]

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

I never said that the weaker brother was in the establishment. What I said was " the weak in faith believe that you should not patronize those establishments.

In the area that I live in most, if not all, serve alcohol. Does that mean that I should never go out to eat? What crowd did Jesus usually eat with? Was it not sinners and publicans?

Good grief, dirtfarmer. Who's argument are you addressing? Who here said you should not patronize a place that serves alcohol?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It says far more than that and right at the start of the chapter:
Romans 14
1 Receive him that is weak in the faith, but not for passing judgment.
2 For one believes that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eats herbs.
3 Let not him that eats despise him that eats not; and let not him who eats not judge him that eats: for God has received him.
4 Who are you that judge another man's servant? to his own master he stands or falls. Yea, he shall be held up: for God is able to make him stand. KJ2000

How does this change what we're talking about here, that it's better to keep your liberty secret and out of sight, if not abstained from altogether?
Wanting Christians to stop bragging about their liberty to drink alcohol for the sake of others is hardly passing judgment. It's what Paul says right in the passage.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you still wear rings of gold, lapel pens, or even golden chain bracelets?

Yes. And I still beat my wife.

To my recollection I do not recall even a single person being ruined by jewelry, as if that somehow even remotely equates to the Christian liberty of drinking alcohol and how it can affect other people.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think Paul was promoting living at peace with one another. If a brother/sister in Christ is abstaining from alcohol for some reason, don't boast that you can drink. We all have been given what we've been given in Christ. It's not about the food or drink but what the Spirit allows that individual.

That is in fact what it's all about, but the responses here remind me of how liberals react when you threaten their precious 'right' to abort a child.
Not too many Christians care about how their drinking affects other people. All they know and care about is they can do it. End of discussion.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

while others see

1Co_10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Well almost...
This is what they see, it seems:
1Co_10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

 

[reba]

lol