Erroneous additons to the Word of God !

[francisdesales]

When you die, your body and soul go to the grave ! ( I have already posted the scriptures and feel no need to repeat myself).

The lie of the adversary is that when you die, you don't really die. This lie seems to play on human emotions. The truth from God unto Adam, was "you shall surely die.

God is a God of the living and nothing, not even death, can separate us from Christ.

The saints in Revelation seemed pretty darn active in heaven. I'm thinking you are misunderstanding Scriptures that point to "death", not taking into account other Scriptures.

Death has nothing to do with life.

LOL!!! It is PART of life, a new beginning. Just as childbirth is part of life, our death here is part of our eternal life in heaven.

Deat is death, and people can't seem to accept this truth. So many people claim that when you die, you don't really die, you just go to a better place. Some say heaven, others say paradise, while yet others say purgatory , and some say they go to sheol, which is just another place of waiting. In all of my studies and understanding, none of these are true, not one.

Studies of what? First-hand experience?

When we die, we die ! Body and soul go to the grave. The spirit of man goes back to God. The spirit of man is only a tool. This tool is like a telephone. A connection between three points. God towards man, and your spirit, the spirit of man unto your mind (soul). And because it is only a tool, the adversary who is also spirit can tap into this spirit, by communication unto your mind(soul) by way of your telephone (your spirit). We call it wire tapping. :D

Actually, the body is the tool that lays in the ground. Our own spirit is not separated from Christ upon death. Paul makes that perfectly clear.

We have read that Cain was of that wicked one. We have read that Jesus spoke to those whom he said that they were of their father the devil. This is where we would ask one another, whom does one listen too ? All lies come from the author of the lie, the adversary of God, the devil. He lied to the woman in the garden, and he continues to lie and deceive.

Yes, the idea that our souls lay in the ground, separate from Christ, is the lie from the adversary. Clearly, the saints in heaven NOW are quite active. Jesus didn't speak to imaginary men on Mount Tabor, He spoke with two living souls, Moses and Elijah. The Greek note that they were "made manifest", as if they were already there, just not visible. The saints surround us, as a cloud of witnesses. No, the idea that our soul dies at death is a lie. Our soul cannot die, since it does not require the tools of the body. It uses them now, to think and to will, but is not dependent upon them. Since the soul is separate from the body, it cannot become physically corrupt, since it has no physicality.

Truth is in the eyes of the beholder. For some , one's truth is another person lie, and so is it the other way around.

The truth is the truth, no matter what your eyes may see...

You've been duped by the idea of relativity. "Everything's relative." "What's true for you isn't true for me".

Truth doesn't depend upon you or me. Whether the saints in heaven are alive or not does not depend upon your or my opinion.

Regards

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi francisdesales

I know from your denominational view where you stand. But the Word of God taken out of its time frame will lead one down the wrong road of understanding.

The saints in heaven, that you read about in Rev. 6:9 occurs after the gathering up of the saints, and not any time sooner than this.

The scriptures that I have presented (and maybe you havn't read them) which came from the book of psalm , shows me anyways, in my understanding, that your soul dies when your body dies, and it goes to the grave with your dead body. It waits for one of the two resurrections. 1. gathering 2. the last resurrection = 1. resurrection of the just 2. resurrection of the unjust.

The erroneous addition of the word "To day" within our bibles has caused all kinds of confusion and deception. IMHO = belief. This word, or should I say dual word, should have been translated this way - "In that day". The day that he enters his kingdom . Luke 23:42 & 43. Jesus did not enter his kingdom at the day of his death.

We do have to die before we can be born again, this is true. But the reason we have to die, is because of the sin of Adam. So the purpose of death is not to bring us unto a better place , and call it being born again. Death does not bring about life. Death is death, period ! It is the promise of God that after we die, we wait for one of the resurrections to occur. This was all made possible by the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. As well as his ascention. I believe that I Corinth. 15:12 - 17 says it best.

12 - "Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead ?"

13 - "But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen ? "

14 - "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching in vain, and your faith is also vain"

15 - "Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God ; because we have testified of God, that he raised up Christ : whom he raised not up, of sobe that the dead rise not"

16 - "For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised"

17 - "And if Christ be not raised , your faith is vain ; ye are yet in your sins"

What these verses are saying, is that Christ was raised from the dead, and that we need to be raised from the dead also. If we believe that when we die, we go straight to heaven. Then there would be no need for a resurrection. That would mean that in death, you fly off into space and enter into heaven without there being any resurrection of the dead.

I believe this to be a false belief, that when you die, your not really dead, but just in a better place.

I believe that when we die, our body and soul dies, and it is from the grave that we need to be raised from the dead. The spirit of man goes back to God, who gave it. It is only a tool. The tool is not us. We - the us - that which is our being, is body and soul. Our body and soul needs to be raised from the dead. As a Christian, we have the spirit of Christ in us, the hope of glory. The Spirit sleepeth while in the grave, but the body and the soul is dead. Spirits can not die literally. This is why Satan, the devil, is to go to an eternal place of damnation. This is why the word "eternal" is used. Also, the unjust will be raised in incorruptible bodies. Some unto everlasting life, and some unto everlasting damnation. Again, and incorruptible body with receive an eternal damnation into the second death. This again is why the word "eternal" is used. As a spirit, such as Satan, and an incorruptible body, one who is raised incorrutible , will never literally die again, so it is eternal. The second death is a figurative place of death.

This is why God tells us, that he is a God of the living, and not of the dead. Everyone including Satan, has an eternity, and this eternity is in their eternal bodies, be it a spirit being, or incorruptible being.

This is why there is eternal life and eternal damnation (death).

This is how I see it within my own understanding, using my spiritual eyes.

Bless - IN Christ - MM

 

[francisdesales]

Hi francisdesales

I know from your denominational view where you stand. But the Word of God taken out of its time frame will lead one down the wrong road of understanding.

The saints in heaven, that you read about in Rev. 6:9 occurs after the gathering up of the saints, and not any time sooner than this.

I disagree. The saints are clearly asking God that the end take place - as such, during John's vision, it had not taken place, if you would read just a bit more...

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

How could they "cry with a loud voice", asking that the Lord avenge them that dwell on the earth if they lay 'dead' in their graves??? Wait awhile. Hasn't happened yet, so this is something taking place "now", not at the end of time.

Oh, no, the saints are quite active, my friend.

The scriptures that I have presented (and maybe you havn't read them) which came from the book of psalm , shows me anyways, in my understanding, that your soul dies when your body dies, and it goes to the grave with your dead body. It waits for one of the two resurrections. 1. gathering 2. the last resurrection = 1. resurrection of the just 2. resurrection of the unjust.

The book pf Psalms was written during imperfect understanding on the afterlife, where there seems to be a mixing of ideas that men in the grave are dead and can NEVER rise/ men will rise and give praise. We turn to the NT for a continuance of the gradual revelation God has given to us, most especially in THE Word of God, Jesus.

The erroneous addition of the word "To day" within our bibles has caused all kinds of confusion and deception. IMHO = belief. This word, or should I say dual word, should have been translated this way - "In that day". The day that he enters his kingdom . Luke 23:42 & 43. Jesus did not enter his kingdom at the day of his death.

I find it interesting how you have decided how the Bible "should have been translated". Based upon what, your personal belief that no souls are alive with the God of the Living in heaven??? Based upon what is this "erroneous"? According to the Greek, "to day" means on this day or the night previously passed.

We do have to die before we can be born again, this is true. But the reason we have to die, is because of the sin of Adam. So the purpose of death is not to bring us unto a better place , and call it being born again. Death does not bring about life. Death is death, period !

Death brings about eternal life, pure and simple. Union with God in heaven. This union takes place after death, but it didn't need to be this way. Adam and Eve had union with God, but because of sin, now death is a step we must proceed through to attain this full union with Him.

It is the promise of God that after we die, we wait for one of the resurrections to occur. This was all made possible by the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. As well as his ascention. I believe that I Corinth. 15:12 - 17 says it best.

12 - "Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead ?"

13 - "But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen ? "

14 - "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching in vain, and your faith is also vain"

15 - "Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God ; because we have testified of God, that he raised up Christ : whom he raised not up, of sobe that the dead rise not"

16 - "For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised"

17 - "And if Christ be not raised , your faith is vain ; ye are yet in your sins"

This speaks nothing about the time frame of the SOUL's union with God, just the body. Paul is speaking to Greeks WHO ALREADY ASSUMED that the soul would go to God upon death. Paul's concern is about the BODY, which will also rise.

What these verses are saying, is that Christ was raised from the dead, and that we need to be raised from the dead also. If we believe that when we die, we go straight to heaven. Then there would be no need for a resurrection. That would mean that in death, you fly off into space and enter into heaven without there being any resurrection of the dead.

Body and soul separate, just as Christ's upon His death on the cross. Who was Christ teaching in Hades after His death and before His resurrection? It appears a Teacher was quite alert, as well as pupils...

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 1 Peter 3:18-20

In addition, the parable told by God Himself verifies that the dead are quite alert...

Luke 16:23-31 is a conversation between two physically dead people...

Jesus speaks with two other "dead" people at Mount Tabor... Men "made manifest", already there.

Man has a notion of the numinous, way before Christianity. We sense that there is some sort of life after death.

I believe this to be a false belief, that when you die, your not really dead, but just in a better place.

I believe you are confused about what Christianity has always taught. ALWAYS.

I believe that when we die, our body and soul dies, and it is from the grave that we need to be raised from the dead. The spirit of man goes back to God, who gave it. It is only a tool.

Other way around. The body is a tool that will be reunited with its spirit. The spirit is our collective will and intellect, our personality. This spirit utilizes our body to receive stimulus while here on earth, to gain in knowledge and experience, and to make the ultimate choice between God and the world. God is spirit and has intellect and a will, so are we, a being that ultimately depends upon its spirit, not its flesh.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

Also, Jesus said clearly that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are living, not dead, not to mention the fact that Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus. God is the God of the living, not the dead.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still awaiting a resurrection from the dead, these having died more than seventeen hundred years before Jesus came to the earth as the Messiah in 29 C.E. In speaking with Nicodemus, Jesus told him that "no man has ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man."(John 3:13) The apostle Paul wrote that "the way into the holy place (is) by the blood of Jesus, which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh."(Heb 10:19, 20)

Hence, no righteous person had ascended to heaven before Jesus, for he is called the "firstborn from the dead" to heavenly life.(Col 1:18; Rev 1:5) Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, though dead, are seen by God as "all living to him"(Luke 20:38), for these are in God's memory for their future resurrection during the "thousand year" reign of Christ Jesus.(Rev 20:5).

He is, indeed, the God of the living, not the dead.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did not ascend into heaven before Jesus. They waited in Sheol (as per Luke 16) until Jesus was resurrected. They were saved by grace through faith just as we are.

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

They are saved exactly like we are by grace through faith.
They are part of the great cloud of witnesses with the Lord right now.

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

The Holy Spirit was not yet made "manifest". That does not say He was not yet given.

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

Grace was fully operational in the OT and the method of salvation was the same as it is for us.

If the Holy Spirit does not indwell a person, that means they are still spiritually dead and no spiritually dead person can have any faith toward God because they are spiritually dead.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

No unbeliever can ever be righteous without salvation. Could a man be spiritually dead and sacrifice his only son of promise on God’s commands?

And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

And of Joseph...

And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?

See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: {3} And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

This work was finished from the foundation of the world....a place has been prepared for the saints from the foundation of the world.

For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

[Mysteryman]

Question from francidesales: "How could they "cry with a loud voice", asking that the Lord avenge them that dwell on the earth if they lay 'dead' in their graves??? "

Hi F

I thought I made it clear that these who were under the altar were raised from the dead. I also thought I made it clear that the body and soul dies and goes to the grave. In order that they are under the altar in heaven shows that they have been raised from the dead. This now also means that their souls as well have been raised from the dead. They are no longer dead ! These under the altar are the saints who have been gathered up by the Lord - dead in Christ rise first, etc. So this shows that your question above shows your inability to grasp what I actually mentioned in my previous post.

Since you believe that we don't really die and that death is how one comes unto eternal life , I don't think that we will ever be on the same page of thinking here. Your beliefs are such, that when you die, you just go to a better place. Thus rendering the resurrection of the dead, as being unnecessary.

Bless and peace - IN Christ - MM

 

[glorydaz]

Hi glorydaz

This is one of the greates lies that the adversary has gotten away with. That your soul does not die when your body dies.

I did want to address this before I forget. I don't see this as a lie from the adversary whether one believes our soul dies, sleeps. or goes to be with the Lord. What can it possibly have to do with our salvation or our walk? I find it more troubling to say there are additions to the Word of God...put there by man. I believe Luke 16, for example, speaks clearly to souls being kept in a place of waiting. The OT saints waited until Jesus was resurrected and now we go directly to be with our Lord. Paul says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. It does not say we wait in the grave or our soul ceases to exist. Our soul is who we are as a person.

Either way...it's no lie from Satan. It's the same with our understanding of heaven. There are some things in the Word of God we cannot know for sure until the Lord comes. We can each give some pretty good arguments, but if our salvation or our walk are not affected then satan has no need to lie about it, does he?

Hi daz

Oh my, I am almost at a loss for words after reading your reply.

Who do you think the author of the lie is ? Of course it is a lie from Satan !

Everything I have pointed out to you, is either truth , or a half truth, or a lie. Of course you need to make up your own mind. And I don't mean that you must believe as I do. I am saying that we must believe what the scriptures are saying.

When you die, your body and soul go to the grave ! ( I have already posted the scriptures and feel no need to repeat myself).

The lie of the adversary is that when you die, you don't really die. This lie seems to play on human emotions. The truth from God unto Adam, was "you shall surely die.

Death has nothing to do with life. Deat is death, and people can't seem to accept this truth. So many people claim that when you die, you don't really die, you just go to a better place. Some say heaven, others say paradise, while yet others say purgatory , and some say they go to sheol, which is just another place of waiting. In all of my studies and understanding, none of these are true, not one.

When we die, we die ! Body and soul go to the grave. The spirit of man goes back to God. The spirit of man is only a tool. This tool is like a telephone. A connection between three points. God towards man, and your spirit, the spirit of man unto your mind (soul). And because it is only a tool, the adversary who is also spirit can tap into this spirit, by communication unto your mind(soul) by way of your telephone (your spirit). We call it wire tapping. :D

We have read that Cain was of that wicked one. We have read that Jesus spoke to those whom he said that they were of their father the devil. This is where we would ask one another, whom does one listen too ? All lies come from the author of the lie, the adversary of God, the devil. He lied to the woman in the garden, and he continues to lie and deceive.

These erroneous additions to our bibles is just one example of how the adversary of God will try by any means to deceive. He wants us to believe his lies. Our faith in God is not, and can not be based upon a lie. We then believe a false premise.

There are some people who believe that some OT people are now in heaven. Which is not true. Some believe that certain people within scripture allows them the right to be with God because of their faithfulness. This is another lie. Only Jesus Christ who came down from heaven , is the only one at this time who has ascended up into heaven. And that is the truth. And I might mention -> As "I" see it.

Truth is in the eyes of the beholder. For some , one's truth is another person lie, and so is it the other way around.

This is why the Word says (Paul) for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. Maybe it is you that has eyes to see, and maybe it's me. Every person needs to be persuaded in their own mind.

My eyes tell me, that there are erroneous additons to our bibles. Our bibles are only between 70 - 90 % accurate, depending on which translation you read. In fact, I doubt any translation is 90 % accurate. But maybe close, so I use it as a slide rule.

This is why God gave us the Spirit of truth. So that we can know the truth. If we trust in our bibles totally, then the Spirit of truth has no place in one's life. That is because they trust their bibles, and not the Spirit of truth. Just like the Word tells us, we can not eat at the table of the Lord, and the table of devils. It will be either the one, or the other. The same holds true, that there is only righteousness or it is unrighteousness. There is no inbetween. Just like you can be hot for the Lord or cold, but do not be lukewarm, for he will spew you out of his mouth. When people live in the inbetween within their beliefs, they are living lukewarm.

So we need to decide . We need to make a decision , and cling to that decision, or change.

The word "To day" was added by the translators. It was meant to deceive. If they had translated it properly. They would have translated this dual word, as "in that day". Not this day, because on this day, they went to the grave. And he had not entered his kingdom on this day. That day is future. In that day, he will meet Jesus in paradise.

Bless

Okay, if it's a lie then you're the one buying into it. :yes
Personally, I call it a misunderstanding by men.
It's easy to tag everything a lie from satan, but man is quite capable of creating confusion on his own.
I'm afraid that's what you're doing here.

 

[Mysteryman]

The greatest lie of the adversary, is that 'ye shall not surely die". The woman was deceived into believing this.

The church is now being deceived into believing this same lie. God is not a respector of persons. But he is a respector of the things he has set into motion.

As one poster has said, no one from the OT has been risen from the dead. Not one ! And not even John the baptist. For the promise of the Father was not unto them. Even the thief on the cross did not receive the promise of the Father. Jesus Christ promised him paradise, not heaven. Heaven is where the saints go. The timing of their resurrection is written. At the gathering up of the saints, the dead in Christ shall rise first, then those remaining at his coming. Then thousands of years shall pass, a total of two more dispensations will pass before the next resurrection that is mentioned in Rev. chapter 20 and in verses 12 and 13.

The dead , all the dead must be raised from the dead, even Christians who have died.

The "Hope" is based upon his coming to gather up the church. King David saw things afar off. This is why David wrote the book of Psalms and the things he wrote in there has shown us the insight of King David. Knowing full well, that when they die the body and soul dies and goes to the grave. And that a resurrection of the dead is necessary . God would not leave his soul in the grave.

The lie of the adversary of God , is that when you die, you don't really die, you just go to a better place. It is the same lie he told the woman in the garden.

Bless - IN Christ - MM

 

[francisdesales]

The greatest lie of the adversary, is that 'ye shall not surely die". The woman was deceived into believing this.

That was a twisting of the truth. They did not instantly die, physically. She died spiritually, as her and Adam's relationship died. It was not entirely truth.


This is not the "greatest lie", quite frankly.

Plus you are taking this out of context, the serpent didn't say "you will go to a better place", but to put doubt in their minds about God's love for them.

The church is now being deceived into believing this same lie. God is not a respector of persons. But he is a respector of the things he has set into motion.

Thanks for your opinion. But the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. Surely, she knows from God whether we will lie in the ground for thousands of years or go to the Lord upon our death.

As one poster has said, no one from the OT has been risen from the dead. Not one ! And not even John the baptist.

Define "risen from the dead". You mean bodily? No, Christ is the pioneer on this. But clearly, men believed in an afterlife, even before the Son of God became man. They believed men were alive in Hades or Sheol before the final resurrection.

For the promise of the Father was not unto them. Even the thief on the cross did not receive the promise of the Father. Jesus Christ promised him paradise, not heaven. Heaven is where the saints go.

Revelation speaks of saints speaking, before the final coming of Christ.

The timing of their resurrection is written. At the gathering up of the saints, the dead in Christ shall rise first, then those remaining at his coming.

Bodily. You are confusing "resurrection" with the spirit's separation upon death with the body.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

The greatest lie of the adversary, is that 'ye shall not surely die". The woman was deceived into believing this.

The church is now being deceived into believing this same lie. God is not a respector of persons. But he is a respector of the things he has set into motion.

As one poster has said, no one from the OT has been risen from the dead. Not one ! And not even John the baptist. For the promise of the Father was not unto them. Even the thief on the cross did not receive the promise of the Father. Jesus Christ promised him paradise, not heaven. Heaven is where the saints go. The timing of their resurrection is written. At the gathering up of the saints, the dead in Christ shall rise first, then those remaining at his coming. Then thousands of years shall pass, a total of two more dispensations will pass before the next resurrection that is mentioned in Rev. chapter 20 and in verses 12 and 13.

The dead , all the dead must be raised from the dead, even Christians who have died.

The "Hope" is based upon his coming to gather up the church. King David saw things afar off. This is why David wrote the book of Psalms and the things he wrote in there has shown us the insight of King David. Knowing full well, that when they die the body and soul dies and goes to the grave. And that a resurrection of the dead is necessary . God would not leave his soul in the grave.

The lie of the adversary of God , is that when you die, you don't really die, you just go to a better place. It is the same lie he told the woman in the garden.

Bless - IN Christ - MM

This entire post is filled with so much error I don't even know where to start.
So I'll just say...what a bunch of bologna. :biglaugh

 

[Mysteryman]

The Lie of the serpent in the garden was - 'ye shall not surely die"

Hades & Sheol is the grave. When you die you go to the grave "dead" ! Not alive people !

Here is what francis said - " They believed men were alive in Hades or Sheol before the final resurrection."

Now we have the lie ! -> You are not dead in the grave , you are alive in the grave.

I Corinth. 15:22 - "In Adam all die"

Your body and soul go to the grave at the time you die, because both the body and soul dies !

Psalm 33:19 - "To deliver their soul from death"

Psalm 44:25 - "For our soul is bowed down to the dust"

Psalm 56:13 - "For thou hast delivered my soul from death"

Psalm 119:25 - "My soul cleaveth unto the dust : quicken thou me according to thy word"

Psalm 142:7 - "Bring my soul out of prison"

Acts 2:31 - "his soul was not left in hell ( hades = grave ) < Soon, maybe today, I am going to deal with this erroneous word "hell" that was added by the translators.

Your soul goes to the grave ! When you go to the grave you are "dead" ! Both body and soul. Soul is breath life and memory. < Your body dies , and your soul dies

Psalm 6:5 - "For in death there is no remembrance"

 

[francisdesales]

The Lie of the serpent in the garden was - 'ye shall not surely die"

Hades & Sheol is the grave. When you die you go to the grave "dead" ! Not alive people !

Here is what francis said - " They believed men were alive in Hades or Sheol before the final resurrection."

Now we have the lie ! -> You are not dead in the grave , you are alive in the grave.

Mysteryman,

Good morning, how is your day? May I patiently address your statements of confusion?

Let me correct your understanding of what I said, if you will...

Me saying: "they believed men were alive in Hades or Sheol"

does not mean:

"you are alive in the grave".

False logic. First of all, the biblical idea is that one is alive IN HADES, NOT in the grave.

This necessitates that a part of us remains and a part of us "goes" somewhere else - Hades or Sheol, in the OT case. The soul leaves the body. The body is dead in the grave. The soul goes to Hades.

This idea was not foreign to even the Psalm writers:

Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Psalm 49:14-15

O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. Psalm 30:3

I think it is quite obvious that the Psalmist sees a separation between the body and the soul. The body remains in the grave, but the soul is received by God.

or...

Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. Proverbs 13-14

Does beating the child prevent him from dying??? Certainly, the author is speaking of another death, being delivered from hell. Allowing a child to grow up in rebellion and undisciplined places his soul in danger of hell. Notice, it doesn't speak about the body or about physical life.

Ezekiel 32:18-32 speaks about the uncircumcised going down into hell, along with other rebellious Jews. At the end, Ezekiel says:

Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, [even] Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.

How does Pharoah see these if he lies dead with the rest of those slain by the sword?

I Corinth. 15:22 - "In Adam all die"

Your body and soul go to the grave at the time you die, because both the body and soul dies !

Doesn't say that, does it. Physically, we die. Our souls live on.

Psalm 33:19 - "To deliver their soul from death"

Spiritual death, separated from God. Those souls remaining in hell.

Psalm 44:25 - "For our soul is bowed down to the dust"

May have nothing to do with death. Speaks about our misery here on earth when we are persecuted.

Psalm 142:7 - "Bring my soul out of prison"

This seems to indicate that the soul is indeed able to go to God before the general resurrection.

Acts 2:31 - "his soul was not left in hell ( hades = grave ) < Soon, maybe today, I am going to deal with this erroneous word "hell" that was added by the translators.

You are going to deal with it? Who are you again, oh mysteryman???

Your soul goes to the grave ! When you go to the grave you are "dead" ! Both body and soul. Soul is breath life and memory. < Your body dies , and your soul dies

Some Jewish writings interchange "soul" and "spirit". Jewish thought was not clear on this. The life, our breath, was often called "spirit" or "soul". Thus, when our breath leaves, our life is done and there is an empty body. Often, Jewish thought did not make a distinction between this breath and the body. It is only later, the last few centuries before Christ, did the Jews clarify that this soul/spirit, the breath, left the body to return to the Lord.

The soul does not die, it returns to the Lord - and will be reunited with the body upon the resurrection. God doesn't make us another "life", "spirit", "soul", that part of us that contains our memories and intellect and our will.

Note, the saints in heaven. They REMEMBER what happened on earth and call for revenge. God didn't create for them another soul, they retained the same one. Thus, the soul lives on, retaining its memories and intellect, BEFORE reuniting with the body at the resurrection.

Regards

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote francis : "The soul does not die, it returns to the Lord - and will be reunited with the body upon the resurrection. God doesn't make us another "life", "spirit", "soul", that part of us that contains our memories and intellect and our will.

Note, the saints in heaven. They REMEMBER what happened on earth and call for revenge. God didn't create for them another soul, they retained the same one. Thus, the soul lives on, retaining its memories and intellect, BEFORE reuniting with the body at the resurrection."

Hi F

This is a lie ! The soul does not go back to God in its remembrance state ! The soul dies !

Hades and shoel is the grave, not heaven ! You do need to study up on these words. And you need to believe what the book of Psalms is saying.

The saints in heaven have been risen from the dead. This occurs at the gathering up of the saints, where the dead in Christ rise ! Their souls are raised from the dead as well.

The soul and the spirit of man are two totally different entities. The soul is breath life and memory. The spirit of man goes back to God. The spirit of man is not your memory, it is a tool. It is not you !

Your memory is within your soul, and when you die, your soul dies !

Take care

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote francis: "That was a twisting of the truth. They did not instantly die, physically. She died spiritually, as her and Adam's relationship died. It was not entirely truth.


This is not the "greatest lie", quite frankly."


Hi F

It is the greatest lie ! It was the lie that lead to the death of all mankind ! Sin entered the world because of this lie ! When Adam ate, who was held responsible, all of mankind dies. Man needed a redeemer for the sin of Adam. Sin entered the world, because they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and "evil" <--

God never said that they would die instantly ! God said - "for in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die"

One day with God is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. They did die in that day !!

A day of the Lord, not a day of man. Adam lived for 930 years and he died ! < In that day.

Death reigned from Adam unto this very day, and it was because of the sin of Adam . Romans 5:17 - "For if by one man's offence death reigned by one (Adam); much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righeousness shall reign (future)in life by one Jesus Christ"

 

[francisdesales]

Hi F

This is a lie ! The soul does not go back to God in its remembrance state ! The soul dies !

I have already given you the pertinent quotes. You refuse to consider them...

You do need to study up on these words. And you need to believe what the book of Psalms is saying.

I do, and I wrote the pertinent verses that express my view.

The saints in heaven have been risen from the dead.

Dead Wrong, excuse the pun... Thessalonians and Corinthians say otherwise. No one has risen from the dead but Christ, the bodies of the saints remain in the ground. Don't believe me? Go to a cemetry and exhume someone that is considered really holy. I'll bet he's still there...

This occurs at the gathering up of the saints, where the dead in Christ rise ! Their souls are raised from the dead as well.

LOL! You are confused.

The soul and the spirit of man are two totally different entities. The soul is breath life and memory. The spirit of man goes back to God. The spirit of man is not your memory, it is a tool. It is not you !

Please define soul and spirit again. It appears your definitions overlap... Hmmm..

Your memory is within your soul, and when you die, your soul dies !

My memory remains alive when my body dies, mystery man, as do the saints in heaven, who are NOT resurrected, their bodies remain dead. God doesn't create a new soul for us. Isn't it clear from Revelation that the saints REMEMBER something - and yet, their bodies lie in the dust. Really. They still are. Ever see a relic? They don't disappear when saints "are resurrected", in your idea of reality.

Regards

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote francis: "Please define soul and spirit again. It appears your definitions overlap... Hmmm.. "

Hi francis

Actually the opposite is true. You do not seem to be able to define within your understanding the difference between the two.

In Ecc. 12:7 tells us that the spirit, the spirit of man, goes back to God who gave it.

The soul is the soul and it dies when your body dies ! I have already shown you this .

The spirit of man goes back to God, not the soul !

The soul is breath life and memory.

The spirit of man is the attributes of God and the angels. To laugh, cry, anger, be weary, love, hate, sing, communicate, the ability to "reason", etc, etc. These attributes go back to God, because they were given to all of mankind. All of mankind !

The soul goes to the grave with the body !

 

[glorydaz]

If it's a great lie, why does Ez. say, "he shall save his soul alive?" And, "he shall not die?'

Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Here's the great lie....

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES CHOOSE ONLY ONE DEFINITION OF A WORD.
A. The Witnesses often select a single definition of a word, and
show where it is thus used in many passages, and then conclude
that it means the same in all other passages.
1. Clearly, they have done this with the word "soul."
2. It is true that many passages in the N.T. use the word
"soul" (psuche) to refer to the physical life or the person
himself.
3. Of course, these passages are amplified by the Witnesses.
They teach that they reveal completely what the word means.
a. They then set about to pervert all other passages which
teach otherwise.
4. There is no need to explore all the passages where the word
"soul" (psuche) means "life" or "person."
a. We readily admit that the word "soul" is sometimes
used that way, but it is not the only way it is used.
There are many passages which demand a different use
of the word.

How does a soul get saved from death if it dies with the body?

Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

The body is the flesh, bone, and blood.
The body goes to the grave...it's but our tabernacle. The "I" is the soul.

Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

The soul is the mind, emotions, and will.
The spirit is the inner soul of man that communes with God.
At the death of our body, we "fly away"..."depart." That is the soul and spirit...only the body remains in the grave.

The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

The bodies were slain (killed), and the souls cry out. They are told to wait....

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

[glorydaz]

Quote francis: "Please define soul and spirit again. It appears your definitions overlap... Hmmm.. "

Hi francis

Actually the opposite is true. You do not seem to be able to define within your understanding the difference between the two.

In Ecc. 12:7 tells us that the spirit, the spirit of man, goes back to God who gave it.

The soul is the soul and it dies when your body dies ! I have already shown you this .

The spirit of man goes back to God, not the soul !

The soul is breath life and memory.

The spirit of man is the attributes of God and the angels. To laugh, cry, anger, be weary, love, hate, sing, communicate, the ability to "reason", etc, etc. These attributes go back to God, because they were given to all of mankind. All of mankind !

The soul goes to the grave with the body !

You're mixed up. You're saying the soul is merely the breath of life, but the soul is tied to the spirit, not the body. The body...the flesh, bones and blood are put in the grave. If you would stop claiming Luke 16 is merely a parable, you'd see things as they really are. That's what happens when you decide the Bible has been adulterated by man. You deny the power of God...with whom all things are possible...to keep His Word of Truth forever. You give man more power than you give God.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi glorydaz

You know what ? I can show you from the Word that a donkey can talk ! I can also show you in the Word where angels came down and manifested themselves to look like men. The donkey didn't talk of itself and the angels were not flesh men.

All true, but nothing is true if you do not understand the scriptures !

To save the soul from death is talking about the second death. Your soul not dying from the prophets of the OT is talking about the same thing. Your soul will not die, is talking about the second death.

To save one's soul from death, is also talking about the second death.

But here in the first death, your body and soul die and both go to the grave !!

 

[francisdesales]

Quote francis: "Please define soul and spirit again. It appears your definitions overlap... Hmmm.. "

Hi francis

Actually the opposite is true. You do not seem to be able to define within your understanding the difference between the two.

In Ecc. 12:7 tells us that the spirit, the spirit of man, goes back to God who gave it.

The soul is the soul and it dies when your body dies ! I have already shown you this .

Hello MM,

That is how you define things?

The "x" is the "x", can't you read and figure this out..."???

I remain unimpressed. Is that how Webster does it?

"A horse is a horse, of course..." :P

The spirit of man goes back to God, not the soul !

My contention is that the two words are often used interchangeably or overlapping. Your response is not helpful in backing up your understanding. You have little authority to just make claims without any evidence other than your "mysterious learning", forgive the parody on your screen name.

I have posted Psalm verses where the soul is taken to God.

The soul is breath life and memory.

Do you have some Scriptural verses on this?

The spirit of man is the attributes of God and the angels. To laugh, cry, anger, be weary, love, hate, sing, communicate, the ability to "reason", etc, etc. These attributes go back to God, because they were given to all of mankind. All of mankind !

Everything was given to mankind... You continue to ignore the fact that memories are retained after death, according to Scriptures. Those punished in hell remember WHY they are there. Ask the "rich man" in the parable with Lazarus in Luke's Gospel. He seemed pretty well aware of why he was there and was even able to speak and ask Lazarus to send a message to his still alive relatives.

The soul goes to the grave with the body !

The soul separates from the body upon death. So there...

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote francis: "Please define soul and spirit again. It appears your definitions overlap... Hmmm.. "

Hi francis

Actually the opposite is true. You do not seem to be able to define within your understanding the difference between the two.

In Ecc. 12:7 tells us that the spirit, the spirit of man, goes back to God who gave it.

The soul is the soul and it dies when your body dies ! I have already shown you this .

The spirit of man goes back to God, not the soul !

The soul is breath life and memory.

The spirit of man is the attributes of God and the angels. To laugh, cry, anger, be weary, love, hate, sing, communicate, the ability to "reason", etc, etc. These attributes go back to God, because they were given to all of mankind. All of mankind !

The soul goes to the grave with the body !

You're mixed up. You're saying the soul is merely the breath of life, but the soul is tied to the spirit, not the body. The body...the flesh, bones and blood are put in the grave. If you would stop claiming Luke 16 is merely a parable, you'd see things as they really are. That's what happens when you decide the Bible has been adulterated by man. You deny the power of God...with whom all things are possible...to keep His Word of Truth forever. You give man more power than you give God.

Hi glorydaz

LOL , oh really ! You think I give more power to man , than I do to God. This shows your misunderstanding of scripture ! All power is of God, and he will not leave your soul in the grave because of the power of God ! But the truth is, is that your body and soul go to the grave in this life !

When you are alive here upon this earth, the spirit of man communicates to the mind that which it understands and hears. God spoke to the spirit of man in the garden. God had Adam name all of the animals. Adam didn't go to school in order to learn how to name the animals. God told him what to call each animal ! Only when he put his Spirit upon man, was that paticular man a prophet of God. But even a prophet of God had also the spirit of man with him. The serpent talked to the woman in the garden by way of his spirit unto the spirit of man , of the woman. The serpent does not talk verbally in the literal sense. Even when Jesus was taken up into the mountain to be tempted. The devil talked to the Spirit of Jesus Christ. The devil didn't talk to Jesus in the verbal literal sense. But Jesus did talk back to him verbally and spiritually. That is because when we communicate , we communicate in the spirit of man. So the devil knows what we say, but never knows what we are thinking.

I suggest you study the difference between the soul and the spirit of man. This is a short coming within your life and understandings. I truely believe you would gain a much greater insight if you do this. Ask God while studying , to reveal unto you the difference between the soul and the spirit of man.

And the greatest lie recorded in scripture , is that "ye shall not surely die" !

Bless