Eternal damnation

[chessman]

… the word death simply means a separation from this life as we know it and separation from God.

Are you sure that's true and willing to consistently use this definition for "death"? That is, death, as used in the Bible, means a separation from God?

Death has two different meanings for two classes of people. For the "lost" it means separation from God for all eternity in the lake of fire.. For the "saved" it means a separation from this world as we know it to live with Jesus in His Kingdom.

Okay. Thanks for your answer. It seems to me that you really didn’t mean then that “the word death simply means ...” in your original post. Rather, “death”, for you, has a more complex meaning than a simple one. That is, it has two different meanings (or maybe even three or more definitions, I don’t know)) depending on who it is that experiences death. That doesn’t seem like a simple definition to me, was really my only point.

I’d just simply say that I think “death” has the same and consistent meaning throughout Scripture, all of it. Thus the reason that all men/women need the gift of Eternal Life. We need the gift of Eternal Life to overcome death. Plain and simple.

Eternal Life trumps/overcomes/defeats death. I don’t see where death has two separate meanings depending on the various passages I happen to be reading/understanding at the time.

But again, I appreciate your reply and I can see what you mean and why you believe in two different meanings for death given your view of what happens to those that don’t have the gift of Eternal Life.

They, the lost, either die a second death (my view) or they live separated from God (your view). I can see why you’d give that “death” a separate meaning than the normal meaning, given your view.

I just wonder why John calls it second death though if it’s really not the everyday/simple meaning of death but rather another much more complex and seemingly contradictory definition.

I also wonder why two different definitions of the word “death” is not made more clear (abundantly clear) within the Scripture(s) if it has two different meanings. One for the lost and one for the saved.

 

[JLB]

It's called exegesis of the text. The entire text! The text doesn't say 'They are spirits of demons" it says "FOR they are spirits of demons".

John's interpreting what he saw (frogs coming out of their mouths) for us by his statement, "For they are the spirits of demons...".

His vision was of frogs coming out of the mouths of The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet. There FOR, they are the spirits of demons is that vision's meaning.

Don't neglect the little word "for" in the text and you'll get it.

The spirits of demons that looked like frogs coming out of the mouth of the false prophet.


Because a false prophet has a demon, doesn't mean they are not human.

Of course if you have a scripture that shows a false prophet in the bible is not human, then please do so.


All anyone needs to realize is that the devil was tormented day and night forever, and Jesus sentenced those goats on His left hand to the same punishment.


Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

Why is it you don't see this very simple foundational truth?

Why would you try to explain this away?



JLB

 

[Chopper]

Okay. Thanks for your answer. It seems to me that you really didn’t mean then that “the word death simply means ...” in your original post. Rather, “death”, for you, has a more complex meaning than a simple one. That is, it has two different meanings (or maybe even three or more definitions, I don’t know)) depending on who it is that experiences death. That doesn’t seem like a simple definition to me, was really my only point.

I’d just simply say that I think “death” has the same and consistent meaning throughout Scripture, all of it. Thus the reason that all men/women need the gift of Eternal Life. We need the gift of Eternal Life to overcome death. Plain and simple.

Eternal Life trumps/overcomes/defeats death. I don’t see where death has two separate meanings depending on the various passages I happen to be reading/understanding at the time.

But again, I appreciate your reply and I can see what you mean and why you believe in two different meanings for death given your view of what happens to those that don’t have the gift of Eternal Life.

They, the lost, either die a second death (my view) or they live separated from God (your view). I can see why you’d give that “death” a separate meaning than the normal meaning, given your view.

I just wonder why John calls it second death though if it’s really not the everyday/simple meaning of death but rather another much more complex and seemingly contradictory definition.

I also wonder why two different definitions of the word “death” is not made more clear (abundantly clear) within the Scripture(s) if it has two different meanings. One for the lost and one for the saved.

Your question; "I just wonder why John calls it second death though if it’s really not the everyday/simple meaning of death but rather another much more complex and seemingly contradictory definition." For the lost, the first death is when they depart from this life through death. Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." There are your two deaths for the "lost". Death from this life and death a second time to be cast into the lake of fire to be separated from God eternally.

 

[reba]

Eph_2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Were we not dead in our sin?
Eph_2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph_2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Col_2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[chessman]

The spirits of demons that looked like frogs coming out of the mouth of the false prophet.
JLB

I don’t understand what it is you are trying to communicate within this 'sentence'. Is it meant to be a question, a comment or somehow meant to be a counter argument to my point?

John saw frogs coming out of the mouths of The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet, right? This we agree on.
John then says “For they are the spirits of demons…”. He doesn’t say “For they are the unclean spirits coming out of the mouths of possessed humans.” That’s what you think (what you read into the text), but that’s NOT what he says. In fact, it’s counter to what he actually does say.

Because a false prophet has a demon, doesn't mean they are not human.
JLB

I didn’t say it did. I did say, however, that John is interpreting his vision of The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet for us by his statement “For they are the spirits of demons…”

Of course if you have a scripture that shows a false prophet in the bible is not human, then please do so.
JLB

I just posted one.

All anyone needs to realize is that the devil was tormented day and night forever, and Jesus sentenced those goats on His left hand to the same punishment.
JLB

Let’s not change the subject/Scripture. How does this have anything whatsoever to do with the exegesis of Rev 16:14?

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41
Why is it you don't see this very simple foundational truth?
Why would you try to explain this away?
JLB

I do see the foundation truth of Matt 25:41. However, I have no idea what it has to do with whether John’s Dragon, Beast and/or False Prophet are demons or humans, though.

I have zero (NADA) desire to 'explain this passage away'. Why do you accuse me of that?

Why do you change the subject, though? Are you through countering my argument for why John's Beast and False Prophet are NOT humans?

But BTW, since you bring up this verse, it’s very, very interesting that you bring up Matt 25:41 and highlight “prepared for the devil and his angels” within a discussion of Rev 16 and Rev 20’s vision of The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet.

10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet also are,…​

prepared for the devil and his angels
​

Which is spot on consistent with my view of what The Beast and The False Prophet are. Demons, not humans. Yet, counter to your view.

 

[chessman]

For the lost, the first death is when they depart from this life through death. Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

Heb 9:27 seems to me applicable to both people groups (the lost and the saved). In Heb 9:28, we read that Christ also bears the sins of many of those people (not all people, but many people), however. Just the saved. The lost bear their own sins and wages thereof.

This doesn’t support a second definition of death, however.

For the lost, the first death is when they depart from this life through death.

Okay. But the saved also depart from this life through death, also. I don’t see (I don’t get) any sort of double meaning to the meaning of death from Heb 9 or any other passage.

There are your two deaths for the "lost". Death from this life and death a second time to be cast into the lake of fire to be separated from God eternally.

Agreed.

I don’t fear the first death and the second death (though I have a fear of it) just simply and graciously (as you rightly point out) is graciously not applicable to us saved people. That’s what we are saved from, the second death. But again, I don’t see a second meaning of the word death however. If there is a second meaning to the word death, I think it comes from:

Matthew 10:28 (LEB) And do not be afraid of those who kill the body [first death] but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [Second death].​

 

[TimothyW]

Hi Tim, you know that I love you too, but "death" for the unbeliever is separation from our Heavenly Father and Jesus of Whom they reject, will be separated from them, and be joined to the devil and his partners in evil in the lake of fire. Separated from the Christ of God, Jesus, and joined to Satan.

Can you show me the scripture that says "death for the unbeliever is separation from God and joined to Satan?

Annihilationists often get charged with being too soft on sin. Those who believe in ECT say that if the sinner is merely annihilated (that is how they usually put it, merely, which makes no sense) then they got what they expected to get all along and so it is no punishment. I reject that argument completely, as receiving death instead of eternal life is very bad. But since we annihilationists are accused of being soft on sin because we believe the sinner is completely destroyed, why don't I ask you if you are being too soft on sin by saying the sinner is merely separated from God. Isn't separation from God what the sinner really wants anyway? So separation from God would actually be (for them) a reward for sin instead of a punishment for sin. And holding this belief, how do you evangelize? Do you say "If you keep running from God, sinning up a storm, you will be separated from God"? Don't most sinners reply "Good! That's what I WANT to happen!" Doesn't it make more sense to say "The wages of sin is death, but you can have eternal life by putting your faith in Jesus Christ". The other advantage of saying this is It is precisely what the Bible says!

 

[TimothyW]

I said this:
"Let's consider some facts.

1. Rev 19:20 - And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. NASB

a. 2 human beings are "thrown ALIVE" into the lake of fire. They don't suffer physical death."

OK, let's do "stop here". Are you actually suggesting that Psa 27:20 refutes the facts I've given from Rev???? I reject that Scripture is contradictory. So, let's instead look at what the word "perish" means from the Hebrew:
אבד
’âbad
aw-bad'
A primitive root; properly to wander away, that is lose oneself; by implication to perish (causatively, destroy):—break, destroy(-uction), + not escape, fail, lose, (cause to, make) perish, spend, Xand surely, take, be undone, X utterly, be void of, have no way to flee.

Because of the facts of Rev 19:20 with 20:10 and 15, the word CANNOT mean annihilate. Period.


How about "wander away", "lose themself", "not escape", "fail", "lose", "be undone", "have no way to flee".


Well, I've never said that they don't suffer physical death. I have no idea where you got that idea from.


Which it does. And it is apparent from your mistaken comment about what you thought I said demonstrates that you really don't know anything about my view.


My view is that with the Biblical exceptions, everyone will suffer physical death. Those who don't have eternal life will be thrown into the lake of fire.

My view is Biblical. Seems to me your view confuses physical and spiritual death.

Sorry, no.
Revelation 19:20 and 20:10 and 15 do not mean that perish doesn't mean annihilate (remember that "annihilate" is YOUR word, not mine. I believe the lost will perish, they will be destroyed, and they will be no more.) According to Psalm 37:20, the wicked will perish. According to Psalm 37:10, the wicked will be no more. According to Revelation 19:20 they are thrown alive into the lake of fire. This does not mean that they REMAIN alive in the lake of fire. The fire destroys them. Let's look at another passage where people are said to be sent alive to Sheol. Numbers 16:33 says "So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly." Notice, they went down ALIVE into Sheol and they PERISHED there. So just because Rev 19:20 says that they are thrown alive into the Lake of Fire, it doesn't mean that they do not perish.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Revelation 19:20 they are thrown alive into the lake of fire. This does not mean that they REMAIN alive in the lake of fire.

Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

If God didn't mean, eternal........it would not be there.

perfect dialogue for this thread....

 

[FreeGrace]

Pain.

Huh??!

 

[JLB]

I don’t understand what it is you are trying to communicate within this 'sentence'. Is it meant to be a question, a comment or somehow meant to be a counter argument to my point?

John saw frogs coming out of the mouths of The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet, right? This we agree on.
John then says “For they are the spirits of demons…”. He doesn’t say “For they are the unclean spirits coming out of the mouths of possessed humans.” That’s what you think (what you read into the text), but that’s NOT what he says. In fact, it’s counter to what he actually does say.

I didn’t say it did. I did say, however, that John is interpreting his vision of The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet for us by his statement “For they are the spirits of demons…”
I just posted one.
Let’s not change the subject/Scripture. How does this have anything whatsoever to do with the exegesis of Rev 16:14?
I do see the foundation truth of Matt 25:41. However, I have no idea what it has to do with whether John’s Dragon, Beast and/or False Prophet are demons or humans, though.

I have zero (NADA) desire to 'explain this passage away'. Why do you accuse me of that?

Why do you change the subject, though? Are you through countering my argument for why John's Beast and False Prophet are NOT humans?

But BTW, since you bring up this verse, it’s very, very interesting that you bring up Matt 25:41 and highlight “prepared for the devil and his angels” within a discussion of Rev 16 and Rev 20’s vision of The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet.

10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet also are,…​

prepared for the devil and his angels
​

Which is spot on consistent with my view of what The Beast and The False Prophet are. Demons, not humans. Yet, counter to your view.

Ok so now you agree that those who Jesus says are cursed, and sentenced to the everlasting fire, which is the same fate as the devil and his angels.

Same for humans, same for the devil.


Ok great.

 

[FreeGrace]

Amazing. That's what led me TO Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace]

Can you establish this as a Biblical "fact"? Aren't you just really saying you think they are humans? I'd be willing to accept they're humans if you can establish 1.a as a fact.

Do you believe that fallen angels can and do possess human beings? I do, as the account in the gospels says so.

We know that Judas Iscariot was entered by satan himself.

What's the problem with understanding that the antichrist and false prophet are humans who are demon possessed?

In my previous postings, I listed three good reasons why John's vision of The Beast and The False Prophet are meant to be understood as demons. Plus, there's more reasons. But nobody has countered why those three are not valid.

Well, I didn't buy your "good" reasons. Plus, I countered with the fact of demon possession as a fact, not a "fact", and that Judas himself was possessed by satan.

So, what are the "more reasons"?

 

[FreeGrace]

Sorry, no.

[ToS 2.4. ]

Revelation 19:20 and 20:10 and 15 do not mean that perish doesn't mean annihilate (remember that "annihilate" is YOUR word, not mine.

Let's be clear. The word perish doesn't occur in Rev 19 or 20. And I believe you're the one who thinks "perish" from Psa 37 means annihilate. As I recall, you have already greatly misunderstood my view.

I believe the lost will perish, they will be destroyed, and they will be no more.) According to Psalm 37:20, the wicked will perish. According to Psalm 37:10, the wicked will be no more.

I've explained what that means. And no one has refuted any of it.

According to Revelation 19:20 they are thrown alive into the lake of fire. This does not mean that they REMAIN alive in the lake of fire.

Uh, yeah, it does mean exactly that. Because "day and night" means 24/7 and "forever and ever" means exactly that.

The fire destroys them.

I'm sure you've seen the Luke verses which reference the lake of fire which says "where their worm NEVER dies". [ToS 2.4. ]

Let's look at another passage where people are said to be sent alive to Sheol. Numbers 16:33 says "So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly." Notice, they went down ALIVE into Sheol and they PERISHED there.

Since I've already given this thread ALL the meanings of the Hebrew word for "perish", you have no point. Nearly all words have a semantic range of meanings. You seem quite stuck on just one idea. Please go back and review my post.

So just because Rev 19:20 says that they are thrown alive into the Lake of Fire, it doesn't mean that they do not perish.

Well for one thing, the word "perish" doesn't occur in either Rev 19 or 20. But the words "day and night forever and ever" DO occur there.

How about this: just explain what, exactly, the word 'perish' means to you. Thanks.

 

[Chopper]

You guys make me chuckle. Why? Because I think that you guys, MIGHT have got your heads together to come up with this "death" argument just to stir up every one who believes in eternal torment for the lost. You Tim & Chessman are not dummies! You both are very intelligent Brothers. And it's obvious to me that you know a vast amount of knowledge on what happens to "believers" and those who reject Christ Jesus....IMO, this whole argument of annihilationism of the "lost" is just a game to your guys.

I don't say these things to cast a blanket of insults , on the contrary, I respect both of you in the ways that you defend your position. You both have brilliant minds and know fully well that after all has been said and done, you believe the same as I :nod. Hey, you have the right and freedom to continue with this little game of yours, frankly, we have discussed this doctrine before, several times, and you know very well where I stand. Arguing with you two, is like

I love you both and applaud you for your knowledge of the Scriptures that you think supports your theory of annihilation of the lost. I don't buy into it because it's not really biblical. NOW, don't come back with a question, like you usually do , "it's not biblical? Show scripture to prove it's wrong." Oh well, I like playing this game with you because it drives me into the Word of God, and when I go into the Word it usually causes me to understand how right I am.

Love you guys, carry on.

 

[poetofparables]

Huh??!

Its only one of the reasons I left God, a big one, but there are many more.

 

[chessman]

Do you believe that fallen angels can and do possess human beings?

Yes. Of course I do.
I don’t think that’s what John is describing within his vision as represented by The Dragon, The Beast or The False Prophet, however. I am persuaded by my 1) (the text of Rev 16:14) that he meant them quite literally to be understood as demons by his interpretation of his vision for us there. And by my reasons 2) and 3) of my post #119.

Quick, related, question for you. Do you think that demons and/or even Satan can manifest themselves in human form on Earth at certain times? Or do they always have to present themselves through the possession of humans? Such as seems to be the case during Satan’s dialogue with Eve or his tempting of Jesus in the wilderness, etc.

We know that Judas Iscariot was entered by satan himself.

I agree. I mean that’s what the text of John’s gospel, in fact, tells us. I’m sure John knew that as well. Not sure how that demonstrates that John wasn’t describing The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet to us as Satan and his demons, however.

What's the problem with understanding that the antichrist and false prophet are humans who are demon possessed?

It’s a wrong understanding (in my opinion) of Revelation’s The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet, to understand John’s Beast and False Prophet as humans that are demon possessed. That’s what the problem is for me. Other than that, I don’t really give a rip. In fact, I don't even care if I'm proven wrong about this.

Think about it, with a fair chance at either them being humans or demons, for a minute.

Let’s just go with your assumption for a second; that is that The Beast and The False Prophet are demon possessed humans and look at some of the conflicts (I assume you don't think The Dragon is also a demon possessed human):
1) Again, John is saying that he visioned three unclean spirits coming out of the mouths Satan and his demons "For they ARE the spirits of demons"). So that’s conflict #1.
2) Can demon possessed humans cast out demons from themselves like spitting frogs out of their mouths to go and do signs and wonders in the Earth? I see no evidence of that capability and all kinds of problems with it.
3) There’s another basic conflict that I previously presented, that again no one has provided any counter argument to. It is my understanding that it’s a biblical foundational fact that ALL humans (not just all of them but two of them) must be judged in front of Christ (Heb 9:27, etc.). Agreed?

Yet, on a human possessed view (your view), neither The Beast nor The False Prophet die nor are they judged in front of Christ (as your argument goes on to conclude). I see that as a problem, Biblically speaking.

Well, I didn't buy your "good" reasons.

K.
Do you have any reasons for thinking they (The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet) are humans possessed by demons versus Satan and his angels? Other than the point I agree with you on; that humans can be possessed by demons? Also, why do you think John says the frogs are the unclean spirits of demons (visioned by the coming out of the mouths of demons) if he thought they were the unclean spirits coming out of human’s mouths?

Plus, I countered with the fact of demon possession as a fact, not a "fact", and that Judas himself was possessed by satan.

Okay, but we’re talking specifically about John’s Dragon, Beast and False Prophet. Or at least I am.
You’ve presented no counter argument for these two being humans possessed by demons as your post claimed was a 1.a. “fact”. You seem to be assuming those two (The Beast and The False Prophet) are two humans in your 1.a. posting when really there’s a lot of evidence against that view. I’m not arguing that humans cannot be possessed by demons. The question is, however, what did John mean by The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet?

Another quick question; Do you think John’s Dragon of Rev 16:14 also represents a demon possessed human? Or rather, do you think John 12:9 is John telling us that The Dragon is none other than the devil, Satan, himself? It seems quite obvious that The Dragon is Satan just as obvious as The Beast and The False Prophet are his angels.

So, what are the "more reasons"?

I’m not sure if you mean these of my post #119:

2. Plus, since The Beast and The False Prophet are cast into the LoF and remain there forever prior to the Final Judgment, then they don't appear at the Great White throne Judgment. Yet Jesus says it is appointed for all humans to die then face judgment. (Either the GWTJ or Bema Seat Judgment). I take Jesus at His Word.
3. The LoF is prepared for The Devil and His _______? Answer = His angels (i.e. demons).

Or do you mean other reasons like 4, 5, ... I have others (yet they’re a little more complicated and less straight forward than these three, admittedly), but if people taking the opposing view (The Dragon, The Beast and/or The False Prophet of John’s vision are demon possessed humans) cannot really provide good counter arguments for these three reasons, then I don’t see the point of wasting any more time on it.
Plus, I’ve never really seen any sort of good argument why they are to be understood as humans possessed by demons (other than some people think they are).

Sometimes certain people are just so set in their ways of thinking that no amount of logical argumentation based on Biblical Scriptures that oppose their view is going to change their minds on any particular subject. In a way, I admire that trait and in a way it seems stubborn.

I think you know members here like that on other subjects, too. Maybe we're all that way to some extent. I'm truly just trying to learn things here though. (and I have)

 

[TimothyW]

Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

If God didn't mean, eternal........it would not be there.

perfect dialogue for this thread....

I agree that the fire is eternal. That does not mean that those who are thrown alive into the eternal fire do not perish in it.

 

[chessman]

Oh well, I like playing this game with you because it drives me into the Word of God, and when I go into the Word it usually causes me to understand how right I am.

Love you guys, carry on.

<Like>

It (these debates) drives me into the Word of God too.
The Word of God is right. He's so, so right! I'm often wrong.

I love you too. I look up to you (and others like JLB, Freegrace and JB, etc.) that I happen to disagree with on certain topics here as well.

We all b lovers of the Lord.

Your knowledge of the Word and application of it, is admirable. When I look at your posts, I see Jesus' love within them. (More than in mine, I'm afraid).

I've actually prayed for your health, ya know.

 

[turnorburn]

Chopper has it right this thread has been hijacked by the doctrine of annihilation...

tob