Eternal hell with new creation?

[T. E. Smith]

The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Agreed, but God's tyranny demanding complete submission and worship on pain of eternal punishment thus extends past this life (unlike any human tyranny) and chases us into the grave with endless pain of an unimaginable variety. Only those who bow to the tyranny can escape.

Hey again!

In response to this argument, let me ask you: What do you think would happen to society if there were no jail cells or prisons, and no repercussions hanging over anyone's head for committing crimes?

 

[T. E. Smith]

Hey again!

In response to this argument, let me ask you: What do you think would happen to society if there were no jail cells or prisons, and no repercussions hanging over anyone's head for committing crimes?

First of all, as an anarchist I support the abolishing of police in all cases but rape and murder. Second, punishments on earth can be just but eternal punishment never is. Hell prescribes an eternal punishment for a temporal sin. An eternal punishment would require that sin be eternal, which it is not.

 

[Hidden In Him]

First of all, as an anarchist I support the abolishing of police in all cases but rape and murder. Second, punishments on earth can be just but eternal punishment never is. Hell prescribes an eternal punishment for a temporal sin. An eternal punishment would require that sin be eternal, which it is not.

Alright, since you believe in so many freedoms, what if a person willfully chooses to serve Satan in this life, and is made subject to him in the next? Should he not suffer the consequences of his actions? If people give themselves as members of Satan's kingdom rather than God's, does it not stand to reason that they become subject to Satan's rulership in eternity? They chose him of their own free will.

 

[Free]

First of all, as an anarchist I support the abolishing of police in all cases but rape and murder.

No police for human trafficking, attempted murder, domestic violence, vandalism, rioting, etc., etc., etc.?

Second, punishments on earth can be just but eternal punishment never is. Hell prescribes an eternal punishment for a temporal sin. An eternal punishment would require that sin be eternal, which it is not.

First, sin is spiritual and is committed against God, who is eternal. Regardless, God doesn't prescribe eternal punishment for a temporal sin; he prescribes eternal punishment for rejecting Christ because our very natures are sinful.

Second, what do you think a just punishment would be for those who reject Christ?

 

[for_his_glory]

I’m not sure of the destiny of humans after death in terms of those who rejected Christ/God although there are indications the spirit of man lives in some form eternally. I think this is the safer view but I’m not sure I’m right.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[T. E. Smith]

No police for human trafficking, attempted murder, domestic violence, vandalism, rioting, etc., etc., etc.?

Attempted murder should involve police, but other than that, no.

First, sin is spiritual and is committed against God, who is eternal.

I do not think this makes sin eternal.

Regardless, God doesn't prescribe eternal punishment for a temporal sin; he prescribes eternal punishment for rejecting Christ because our very natures are sinful.

Rejecting Christ is a temporal act.

Second, what do you think a just punishment would be for those who reject Christ?

Since I don't think rejecting Christ is a sin, then there would be no just punishment. Yes, I called it a sin; but I was just using Christian language since we are discussing a Christian topic.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I can say with complete confidence that Dorothy Mae is aware of these verses. So how is it helpful to just quote drop them without any explanation?

 

[T. E. Smith]

Alright, since you believe in so many freedoms, what if a person willfully chooses to serve Satan in this life, and is made subject to him in the next? Should he not suffer the consequences of his actions? If people give themselves as members of Satan's kingdom rather than God's, does it not stand to reason that they become subject to Satan's rulership in eternity? They chose him of their own free will.

Hell is not just serving under Satan.

Why would it be better to be subject to God than Satan?

 

[for_his_glory]

I can say with complete confidence that Dorothy Mae is aware of these verses. So how is it helpful to just quote drop them without any explanation?

Some scriptures are plain enough without and explanation.

Now if I gave John 11:35 Jesus wept, then an explanation needs to be given why He wept. 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 is self explanatory.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

None of these answer the question posed. None. The "resurrection of damnation" or "cast into the lake of fire" are true but does not answer the question asked.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I can say with complete confidence that Dorothy Mae is aware of these verses. So how is it helpful to just quote drop them without any explanation?

Thank you. That is one of the highest, if not thee highest, compliment I have ever received on a website. It is absolutely true and I still find you one of the most astute posters here. You have a way of seeing through the chaff.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Why would it be better to be subject to God than Satan?

In Christian teaching, that answer is fairly obvious. Let me give you another excerpt from that testimony of Hell I was sharing:

Jesus said, "Come, I want to show you something." At once we were about a half-mile up in the air, in the center of the belly of Hell, and in the center of the seventeen-mile-high block of cells. It felt like being in a well where neither top nor bottom could be seen because of the darkness. A yellow light began to fill the place. I held tight to Jesus' hand.

"Dear Lord," I asked, "why are we here?" All at once there came a hurricane-force wind and a mighty rushing sound. Great waves of fire began to race up the sides of the walls of cells, burning everything in its path. The flames reached inside each cell and brought pitiful cries of pain and distress. Though Jesus and I were not touched by the flames, fear welled up inside of me as I saw the souls of the lost running to the back of the small cells, trying to find a hiding place.

An evil sound began to rise from the left of us. I looked, and Satan was standing with his back to us, and he was all aflame. But he was not being burned; rather, it was he who caused the fire. Now he stood engulfed in the flames, enjoying the cries of these poor, lost souls. As Satan moved his arms, great balls of fire shot from him. Heartbreaking screams and great cries of pain came from the cells. The souls inside were being burned alive by this hotter than hot lake of fire, and yet they could not die. The demons, too, joined in the laughter as Satan went from cell to cell, torturing the lost.

Jesus said, "Satan feeds on evil. He glories in pain and suffering and gains power from it." I watched Satan as a reddish-yellow flame with brown edges grew all about him. A wild and gusty wind blew his garments which did not burn. The smell of burning flesh filled the air, and I realized anew that the horrors of Hell are real. Satan walked through the flames, and they could not burn him. Though I only saw his back, I could hear his evil laughter everywhere. I watched as Satan ascended in a cloud of smoke, taking the stream of fire up with him to the top of the belly of Hell. I listened as he turned and in a loud voice announced that unless all these souls worshiped him, he would give them a turn in the fun circle.

"No, please, Satan, we will worship you," they shouted in unison as they all began to bow in worship to the devil. And the more they worshiped him, the greater was his hunger for adoration. Louder and louder rang the sounds of praise until the rafters of Hell rang with the clamor.

Jesus said, "All these who occupy the cells of Hell heard the true gospel while they were alive on earth. Many times My salvation was offered to them. Many times My Spirit drew them, but they would not hearken or come unto Me to be saved." As Jesus was speaking, Satan was saying to his subjects, "Ha-ha, this is your kingdom-all the kingdom you will ever have. My kingdom covers all the earth and the world below." I heard him shout, "This is your life for eternity!" while cries of regret came from the burning cells.

Jesus said, "My salvation is free. Whoever will, let him come and be saved from this place of everlasting punishment. I will not cast him out. If you have been a witch or a warlock, even if you have a written agreement with the Devil, My power will break it, and My shed blood will save you. I will take the evil curse off your life and redeem you from Hell. Give me your heart that I may unchain you and set you free."(A Divine Revelation of Hell, P.98-101)

Now contrast this with the many testimonies of what Heaven is like from those being taken up in Spirit, which I will share in the next post.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Some scriptures are plain enough without and explanation.

Now if I gave John 11:35 Jesus wept, then an explanation needs to be given why He wept. 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 is self explanatory.

No, the scriptures you post most often do not at all answer the question. You often hide being scriptures assuming that what you think is what they say. This is easily known to be not the case as the scripture you post, does not come close to answering the question. This means you do not understand the question nor the scripture given as an answer. Jesus could quote the scripture without cut and pasting but he also taught from his understanding and they marveled at his answers. They were not Scripture....that is, until he said it and it was written down. It would be better to give some thoughts that answered the question or attempted to do so. We are commanded to love God with our minds which does not mean be able to quote what other people said.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Now contrast this with the many testimonies of what Heaven is like from those being taken up in Spirit, which I will share in the next post.

This is just one of many I could provide, as I have multiple books on the subject. But while they all share different details, all describe essentially the same place:

When I stepped inside the city, amazement again took my breath. The landscape of that in comparable city was beyond description. Surrounding me were the most beautiful, colorful flowers I had ever seen. There was unbelievable greenery and vegetation everywhere. Even the blooms of the flowers seemed to be alive to the music and the singing.

Music continued to swirl about me. I seemed to be a part of it. It is one thing to try to describe the wonders of this city; it is quite another to know that you will share the joy of it. I saw some of the exuberant citizens of heaven, and they were all dressed in robes. This Scripture came to me: I will greatly rejoice in the LORD; my soul shall be joyful in my God; for He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
(Isaiah 61:10)

The happiness and joy that beamed from their faces was beyond compare. Heaven is a real place. It is not a figment of someone’s imagination. In the Bible it is recorded that Jesus said, "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." (John 14:1-2)

Heaven is a prepared place for a prepared people. Since we as children of God have been transformed and made new by the miracle of regeneration, and since we are now new creations in Christ, it is a joy to know that the place where we will spend eternity is prepared by the Savior who saved us.

Heaven is a perfect place. Since our Savior is perfect, omnipotent, and eternal, heaven has to be a perfect place. Because He is preparing us a place there to live with Him for all eternity, our eternal home will be perfect, too. Nothing will ever mar any part of that heavenly abode. There will never be anything allowed to enter heaven to defile it or spoil it. "But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life." (Revelation 21:27)

Heaven is beyond the reach of sin and sinners of every kind and description. Satan will be forever barred from that heavenly place: "And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail drew a third of the stars [i.e. angelic hosts] of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. War broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time." Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. (Revelation 12:3-4, 7-10, 12-13)

That serpent, Satan, and his unholy cohorts will never again rear their ugly heads in the pure and holy climate of heaven! The demons cannot enter heaven. The fallen angels who rebelled against God and “who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode" (Jude 1:6) cannot return to heaven. Nothing will be lacking in heaven. No detail will be left out to keep its environment from being perfect. No matter where we go on earth, no matter where we live or how expensive our homes may be, there are obvious faults and flaws to keep them from being perfect. In contrast, God has made no mistakes in constructing the place called heaven. Its glories, its beauties, its wonders are beyond human powers of description. The indescribable splendor of that beautiful place is wondrous to behold. The combined brilliance of the light of the Son of God reflecting on walls of jasper, gates of pearl, mansions unnumbered, and the beautiful River of Life creates a scene no artist could ever adequately depict.

 

[T. E. Smith]

In Christian teaching, that answer is fairly obvious. Let me give you another excerpt from that testimony of Hell I was sharing:

Jesus said, "Come, I want to show you something." At once we were about a half-mile up in the air, in the center of the belly of Hell, and in the center of the seventeen-mile-high block of cells. It felt like being in a well where neither top nor bottom could be seen because of the darkness. A yellow light began to fill the place. I held tight to Jesus' hand.

"Dear Lord," I asked, "why are we here?" All at once there came a hurricane-force wind and a mighty rushing sound. Great waves of fire began to race up the sides of the walls of cells, burning everything in its path. The flames reached inside each cell and brought pitiful cries of pain and distress. Though Jesus and I were not touched by the flames, fear welled up inside of me as I saw the souls of the lost running to the back of the small cells, trying to find a hiding place.

An evil sound began to rise from the left of us. I looked, and Satan was standing with his back to us, and he was all aflame. But he was not being burned; rather, it was he who caused the fire. Now he stood engulfed in the flames, enjoying the cries of these poor, lost souls. As Satan moved his arms, great balls of fire shot from him. Heartbreaking screams and great cries of pain came from the cells. The souls inside were being burned alive by this hotter than hot lake of fire, and yet they could not die. The demons, too, joined in the laughter as Satan went from cell to cell, torturing the lost.

Jesus said, "Satan feeds on evil. He glories in pain and suffering and gains power from it." I watched Satan as a reddish-yellow flame with brown edges grew all about him. A wild and gusty wind blew his garments which did not burn. The smell of burning flesh filled the air, and I realized anew that the horrors of Hell are real. Satan walked through the flames, and they could not burn him. Though I only saw his back, I could hear his evil laughter everywhere. I watched as Satan ascended in a cloud of smoke, taking the stream of fire up with him to the top of the belly of Hell. I listened as he turned and in a loud voice announced that unless all these souls worshiped him, he would give them a turn in the fun circle.

"No, please, Satan, we will worship you," they shouted in unison as they all began to bow in worship to the devil. And the more they worshiped him, the greater was his hunger for adoration. Louder and louder rang the sounds of praise until the rafters of Hell rang with the clamor.

Jesus said, "All these who occupy the cells of Hell heard the true gospel while they were alive on earth. Many times My salvation was offered to them. Many times My Spirit drew them, but they would not hearken or come unto Me to be saved." As Jesus was speaking, Satan was saying to his subjects, "Ha-ha, this is your kingdom-all the kingdom you will ever have. My kingdom covers all the earth and the world below." I heard him shout, "This is your life for eternity!" while cries of regret came from the burning cells.

Jesus said, "My salvation is free. Whoever will, let him come and be saved from this place of everlasting punishment. I will not cast him out. If you have been a witch or a warlock, even if you have a written agreement with the Devil, My power will break it, and My shed blood will save you. I will take the evil curse off your life and redeem you from Hell. Give me your heart that I may unchain you and set you free."(A Divine Revelation of Hell, P.98-101)

Now contrast this with the many testimonies of what Heaven is like from those being taken up in Spirit, which I will share in the next post.

Please do not tell me this is supposed to be a genuine memoir. Whoever wrote this book already had their vision of hell in their mind, and thus came up with a story that fit it (presumably a "hallucination"). Thus it proves nothing except to those who already agree with it.

The Revolt of the Angels (https://www.gutenberg.org/files/32596/32596-h/32596-h.htm) by Anatole France aptly captures the spirit of romantic Satanism. France describes Satan's dream of glory:

And Satan found pleasure in praise and in the exercise of his grace; he loved to hear his wisdom and his power belauded. He listened with joy to the canticles of the cherubim who celebrated his good deeds, and he took no pleasure in listening to Nectaire's flute, because it celebrated nature's self, yielded to the insect and to the blade of grass their share of power and love, and counselled happiness and freedom. Satan, whose flesh had crept, in days gone by, at the idea that suffering prevailed in the world, now felt himself inaccessible to pity. He regarded suffering and death as the happy results of omnipotence and sovereign kindness. And the savour of the blood of victims rose upward towards him like sweet incense. He fell to condemning intelligence and to hating curiosity. He himself refused to learn anything more, for fear that in acquiring fresh knowledge he might let it be seen that he had not known everything at the very outset. He took pleasure in mystery, and believing that he would seem less great by being understood, he affected to be unintelligible. Dense fumes of Theology filled his brain. One day, following the example of his predecessor, he conceived the notion of proclaiming himself one god in three persons. Seeing Arcade smile as this proclamation was made, he drove him from his presence. Istar and Zita had long since returned to earth. Thus centuries passed like seconds. Now, one day, from the altitude of his throne, he plunged his gaze into the depths of the pit and saw Ialdabaoth in the Gehenna where he himself had long lain enchained. Amid the everlasting gloom Ialdabaoth still retained his lofty mien. Blackened and shattered, terrible and sublime, he glanced upwards at the palace of the King of Heaven with a look of proud disdain, then turned away his head. And the new god, as he looked upon his foe, beheld the light of intelligence and love pass across his sorrow-stricken countenance. And lo! Ialdabaoth was now contemplating the Earth and, seeing it sunk in wickedness and suffering, he began to foster thoughts of kindliness in his heart. On a sudden he rose up, and beating the ether with his mighty arms, as though with oars, he hastened thither to instruct and to console mankind. Already his vast shadow shed upon the unhappy planet a shade soft as a night of love.

Ialdabaoth is a name for God in the book. Anyways, what we see is that Satan, being worshipped, becomes a vain tyrant. He "awoke bathed in an icy sweat". Satan then comes to the realization that if he is victorious, he will just become God. He changes his mind, and says:

"Comrades," said the great archangel, "no—we will not conquer the heavens. Enough to have the power. War engenders war, and victory defeat.

"God, conquered, will become Satan; Satan, conquering, will become God. May the fates spare me this terrible lot; I love the Hell which formed my genius. I love the Earth where I have done some good, if it be possible to do any good in this fearful world where beings live but by rapine. Now, thanks to us, the god of old is dispossessed of his terrestrial empire, and every thinking being on this globe disdains him or knows him not. But what matter that men should be no longer submissive to Ialdabaoth if the spirit of Ialdabaoth is still in them; if they, like him, are jealous, violent, quarrelsome, and greedy, and the foes of the arts and of beauty? What matter that they have rejected the ferocious Demiurge, if they do not hearken to the friendly demons who teach all truths; to Dionysus, Apollo, and the Muses? As to ourselves, celestial spirits, sublime demons, we have destroyed Ialdabaoth, our Tyrant, if in ourselves we have destroyed Ignorance and Fear."

He continues:

"Nectaire, you fought with me before the birth of the world. We were conquered because we failed to understand that Victory is a Spirit, and that it is in ourselves and in ourselves alone that we must attack and destroy Ialdabaoth."

 

[for_his_glory]

None of these answer the question posed. None. The "resurrection of damnation" or "cast into the lake of fire" are true but does not answer the question asked.

I was responding to your post #258 as you said: I’m not sure of the destiny of humans after death in terms of those who rejected Christ/God although there are indications the spirit of man lives in some form eternally.

I did not see that as a question, but of something you were not sure of. If there was a question, maybe I missed it and you could ask again.

Our spirit can never die, but is subjected to having eternal life with the Father or eternal damnation being eternally separated from God in final judgement.

 

[for_his_glory]

No, the scriptures you post most often do not at all answer the question. You often hide being scriptures assuming that what you think is what they say. This is easily known to be not the case as the scripture you post, does not come close to answering the question. This means you do not understand the question nor the scripture given as an answer. Jesus could quote the scripture without cut and pasting but he also taught from his understanding and they marveled at his answers. They were not Scripture....that is, until he said it and it was written down. It would be better to give some thoughts that answered the question or attempted to do so. We are commanded to love God with our minds which does not mean be able to quote what other people said.

No, they answer all the questions, but they are not the answers you want to hear. So, if we disagree it does not mean I have no understanding of the questioned asked, nor does it mean I have no understanding of what has already been written. If I do not understand the question I will ask for clarity. I don't believe in what Preterist teach, but I do not condemn you for how you believe and not backing yourself up with scripture in what you say, so I would appreciate it if you would not condemn me for what I believe as I share the scriptures with others.

I know you have a problem with me posting scripture for everything I say and I would be a fool not to do so. A good teacher teaches from the text book and not apart from it. I don't quote what others say, but only that of what has already been written. Jesus was/is the word of God before the foundation of the world and did not have to write the scriptures as He is the scriptures as the Apostles who wrote the letters to the churches where they traveled to witnessed and testified of the teachings of Christ for all the world to learn of Him. Man put these letters into a book and called it the New Testament of Christ Jesus. What I quote are the very words of Christ. Sorry you have such a problem with that.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Please do not tell me this is supposed to be a genuine memoir. Whoever wrote this book already had their vision of hell in their mind, and thus came up with a story that fit it (presumably a "hallucination"). Thus it proves nothing except to those who already agree with it.

It's not a genuine "memoir," LoL, it's a genuine testimony, and the saints have been experiencing these visions for decades now. As I told you, there have been many of them, both on Heaven and on Hell. I believe you are trying to dismiss such testimonies because you wish only to discuss a "Christianity" that is completely devoid of supernatural experience and confirmation, but genuine Christianity is never going to be descending to that level.

You also attempt to do the same thing with "Satanism," which is why when you are confronted with actual human experience which contradicts your theories, you have no choice but to dismiss them as being "hallucinations" or a "wild stories," but those who have genuine experience of religion know it is really you who are making up the stories to deflect from having to come up with reasonable answers in debates like this.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Thank you. That is one of the highest, if not thee highest, compliment I have ever received on a website. It is absolutely true and I still find you one of the most astute posters here. You have a way of seeing through the chaff.

It just frustrates me when two Christians debate something and one of them just drops verses with no explanation. It implies, "These verses, which you are ignorant of, support my view so obviously that they don't even need further comment."

 

[hawkman]

First of all, as an anarchist I support the abolishing of police in all cases but rape and murder.

Attempted murder should involve police, but other than that, no.

Your list is getting longer I see . Human trafficking , did not make the cut . What about kidnapping and torture , would that be allowed in you new police state ?

Hell is not just serving under Satan.

Is this inside knowledge ?
Did you verify this personally ?

Why would it be better to be subject to God than Satan?

Because God loves us . Satan not so much .

 

[T. E. Smith]

Your list is getting longer I see . Human trafficking , did not make the cut . What about kidnapping and torture , would that be allowed in you new police state ?

Is this inside knowledge ?
Did you verify this personally ?


Because God loves us . Satan not so much .

Attempted rape and murder would of course be prosecuted by police like actual rape and murder. As for the rest, they would not be allowed, but police would not handle it.
I know Hell is biblically not just serving Satan because it also involves torture. Some love - serve me or suffer eternally.