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Eternal hell with new creation?

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T. E. Smith

T. E. Smith

Romantic Rationalist
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The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?
 
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journeyman said:
It says death and the grave being cast into the lake of fire is the 2nd death, because they no longer exist. It's God himself that destroys them,

O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: Hos.13:14

a fire shall devour before him Psa.50:3
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Agreed. The point I was making is that people don't suffer and endless torment
 
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Dorothy Mae said:
I don’t mean it as an accusation but merely a help as to how the other thinks. Some groups are trained in specific ways to think or discuss. Those who redefine words are not the intellectually honest ones.
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I can assure you I am not a JW. You can't put me into any modern Christian group. My beliefs are founded primarily on first century Christian beliefs. I say primarily because there are a few things they believed that are demonstrably wrong. 1st century Christianity and today's Christianity are markedly different.
 
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Butch5 said:
Agreed. The point I was making is that people don't suffer and endless torment
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That's right. Their torment is caused by having their sins exposed by the light of Christ. Then their lives are ended, along with death and the grave,

A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about. Psa.97:3

For our God is a consuming fire. Heb.12:29
 
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journeyman said:
It says death and the grave being cast into the lake of fire is the 2nd death, because they no longer exist. It's God himself that destroys them,

O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: Hos.13:14

a fire shall devour before him Psa.50:3
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The second death is exactly what the wicked want. They will have enjoyed pursuing their passions freely and no suffering afterwards. Their dream come true.
 
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Dorothy Mae said:
The second death is exactly what the wicked want. They will have enjoyed pursuing their passions freely and no suffering afterwards. Their dream come true.
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Hello Dorothy Mae.
In the first place, I never said unbelievers wouldn't suffer torment at Christs' judgement seat.
Secondly, I don't buy the, "Unbelievers just want their lives to end" claim. They don't want their lives to end now, but especially won't want their lives to end when they see the true glory of it.
 
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Dorothy Mae said:
The second death is exactly what the wicked want. They will have enjoyed pursuing their passions freely and no suffering afterwards. Their dream come true.
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Tell me where the Bible says this. I hear this so often from Christians, but never with any scriptural backing. The rich man in the parable (?) of "The Rich Man and Lazarus" wanted his brothers to be saved from hell (and he was in agony, certainly he wanted to get out too). The unbelievers are said to beg God to enter heaven, but he will tell them "I never knew you."

Their dream come true? No, not at all; we are told of "weeping and gnashing of teeth." If they got what they wanted in Hell, they wouldn't be weeping.

Not only is there no scriptural support for your view, but the scripture in fact says precisely the opposite.

*I don't want to get into a debate over the term parable. "Story", "account", "parable", whatever, it doesn't change my point.
 
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T. E. Smith said:
One of the truest things I've ever heard stated on this site.
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It is. Many Christians today don't know the history of the early church and think what they've been taught is what thr Bible teaches. However, when we look at the plethora of denominations it becomes clear that many are off base. Each denomination believes they have the truth and the others are wrong. But then each denomination has passages of Scripture that disprove something they believe showing that it is in fact wrong. Many just gloss over these issues and pretend they don't exist never looking to get down to the real issue and figure out what's going on. A serious study of early Chtistian history shows that much of the modern belief system is simply wrong. The problem is when you come into one of these forums people think what they believe is the real Christian faith so they automatically reject what doesn't fit their beliefs. You can't make headway because people don't listen because according to them they have the truth. Even in the face of overwhelming evidence people will cling to whatever doctrines they've been taught. I've coined a saying, when Scripture butts heads with church doctrine, church doctrine always wins.

Another issue is that people don't seem to realize the limitations of translation. People will throw out a passage or two and claim the Bible says xyz. Anyone who has looked at textual criticism even in the smallest degree will realize there are quite a few issues in translating the original languages into English.
T. E. Smith said:
Yeah, I didn't think you were. Whoever said you were was probably just being polemical.
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I'm far from it.
 
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Dorothy Mae said:
Hopeful,

I could be wrong but I think a poster mentioned that Butch is a JW. If so, they, like Mormons, redefine words and often often really silly explanations that make no sense. This would fit his posts, but JWs aren’t the only who do this.
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OK.
But everyone is entitled to the truth, so I will continue to engage him in the hope he will join those who have come from JWism and unto the truth before him.
 
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Hopeful said:
It is written..."And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev 20:14-15)
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Ok, it says it's the second death. That means they're dead, correct? They're not alive and suffering, correct?
 
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Hopeful said:
They already "died" once, yet exist at their judgement.
Why couldn't they still exist after their second death?
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At the judgment they've been resurrected.

John 5:26–29 (KJV 1900): For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus said all will be raised. Some to life and some to damnation. So, those thrown into the Lake of Fire have been raised and are in the body. They exist because they've been resurrected.
 
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Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Here is my question. Why are we not seeing that hell is only the grave, just as the sea is a grave where the dead will be delivered up from?

Death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire as there will be no more death or need of a grave anymore.
 
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