Eternal hell with new creation?

[T. E. Smith]

The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?

 

[journeyman]

Scripture please.

I cited scripture in posts 419 and 424. Read them.

Then compare them with Rev.19:20, where the beast is "cast into the lake of fire", with 2Thes.2:8, where the man of sin is "destroyed by the Spirit and brightness of Christs coming." They have the same effect.

Paul said,

If any man's workshall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1Cor.3:15

"Yet so as by fire" means we'll be exposed to it.

 

[journeyman]

Where do you get that idea?

Please see my response to Hopeful in post 441.

 

[Hopeful]

At the judgment they've been resurrected.

John 5:26–29 (KJV 1900): For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus said all will be raised. Some to life and some to damnation. So, those thrown into the Lake of Fire have been raised and are in the body. They exist because they've been resurrected.

Agreed.
And that "body" will end up in the lake of fire.

 

[Butch5]

Agreed.
And that "body" will end up in the lake of fire.

Agreed

 

[Hopeful]

I cited scripture in posts 419 and 424. Read them.
Then compare them with Rev.19:20, where the beast is "cast into the lake of fire", with 2Thes.2:8, where the man of sin is "destroyed by the Spirit and brightness of Christs coming." They have the same effect.

I don't see how that constitutes the righteous being exposed to the lake of fire.

Paul said,
If any man's workshall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1Cor.3:15
"Yet so as by fire" means we'll be exposed to it.

It is the works that will be "exposed", not the doer of the works.
"If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Cor 3:14-15)
How can a man be saved by fire?
Saved from what?

 

[T. E. Smith]

I don't see how that constitutes the righteous being exposed to the lake of fire.

It is the works that will be "exposed", not the doer of the works.
"If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Cor 3:14-15)
How can a man be saved by fire?
Saved from what?

A verse that has traditionally been taken to support purgatory: salvation through fire.

 

[Hopeful]

A verse that has traditionally been taken to support purgatory: salvation through fire.

I reject the stuff of catholicism.
It just accommodates more sinning.

 

[T. E. Smith]

I reject the stuff of catholicism.
It just accommodates more sinning.

Actually, unconditional forgiveness with no penalty of purgatory seems to encourage sinning.

 

[journeyman]

I don't see how that constitutes the righteous being exposed to the lake of fire.

Most believers don't, but

the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Thes.1:7-8

It is the works that will be "exposed", not the doer of the works.
"If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Cor 3:14-15)
How can a man be saved by fire?

By his presence having a purifying effect on us. Peter says his coming exposes the universe to fire 1Pet.3:7,10-12.

Saved from what?

Destruction,

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ.....Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men 2Co.5:10-11

Look at all the scripture I cited. A "lake". Have you ever been on a gigantic lake where you couldn't see the shore? Noting around you but water?

A lake of fire engulfing everything. Harmless only to people who know him.

 

[journeyman]

Actually, unconditional forgiveness with no penalty of purgatory seems to encourage sinning.

Purgatory in the hereafter doesnt exist, because purification occurs now, in this life,

Seeing ye have purified your souls 1Pet.1:22.

And how is my soul purified now?

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1Pet.3:18

After Jesus forgives me, God teaches me how my suffering will come from unbelievers, simply by living a life pleasing to him,

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 1Pet.4:1

 

[Hopeful]

Actually, unconditional forgiveness with no penalty of purgatory seems to encourage sinning.

Those who keep on sinning, (those who lied to God about their repentance from sin), are not forgiven.
It is written that "God heareth not sinners". (John 9:31)

 

[Hopeful]

Most believers don't, but

the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Thes.1:7-8

That is the end of the world.

By his presence having a purifying effect on us. Peter says his coming exposes the universe to fire 1Pet.3:7,10-12.

You must have cited the wrong chapter or something...

Destruction,

I am thankful to have escaped that.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ.....Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men 2Co.5:10-11

I am thankful I was persuaded.

Look at all the scripture I cited. A "lake". Have you ever been on a gigantic lake where you couldn't see the shore? Noting around you but water?

Yes, I have.
But the lake of fire will have no light, only darkness. (Matt 8:12, 2 Peter 2:4,17, Jude 1:6)

A lake of fire engulfing everything. Harmless only to people who know him.

I really don't think the "sheep" will have to watch what happens to the "goats".

 

[journeyman]

That is the end of the world.

Right. So Jesus said,

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Jn.12:48

You must have cited the wrong chapter or something...

I did. It's 2Pet.3

I am thankful to have escaped that.

I am thankful I was persuaded.

Me too!

Yes, I have.
But the lake of fire will have no light, only darkness. (Matt 8:12, 2 Peter 2:4,17, Jude 1:6)

Fire produces darkness from smoke when combustible things are burning. Sometimes firefighters inside a burning building can't see their hand in front of their face.

But the true teaching of the verses you cited is that after repentance, we should follow our Lord, because those who didn't follow him are in darkness even now.

I really don't think the "sheep" will have to watch what happens to the "goats".

I think we'll see how the goats destroyed themselves,

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? Eze.33:11

 

[for_his_glory]

A verse that has traditionally been taken to support purgatory: salvation through fire.

FYI, purgatory is not found in the Bible as there is no such place.

2 Maccabees is where Catholics get their idea of a purgatory and that everyone will go to be with Christ when He returns. There is no purgatory as this is just something that man dreamed up and is not of God. But this needs to be another thread.

 

[Hopeful]

Right. So Jesus said,
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Jn.12:48

If the words judge one on the last day, why would you suppose some will "pay" less than others?
The wicked ALL go to the lake of fire.

I did. It's 2Pet.3

The verses, 7, and 10-12, don't show anything like what you seem to expect...a "purifying by the fire", which the word says will destroy this earth.
Not purify it.

Me too!
Fire produces darkness from smoke when combustible things are burning. Sometimes firefighters inside a burning building can't see their hand in front of their face.

With no God there, there is no light.

But the true teaching of the verses you cited is that after repentance, we should follow our Lord, because those who didn't follow him are in darkness even now.

The same "darkness" without God.
But here we have the opportunity to turn from sin and be washed with the blood of Christ...which if men could be purified by fire later, would make the suffering and death of Jesus unnecessary.

I think we'll see how the goats destroyed themselves,

In essence, I agree.
Everyone gets the chance to follow the Shepherd.

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? Eze.33:11

I am grateful I could invoke the prophesy given to Israel.

 

[journeyman]

If the words judge one on the last day, why would you suppose some will "pay" less than others?
The wicked ALL go to the lake of fire.

Are you alluding to Lk.12:47-48? If so, our Lord is teaching on correction in this life, not the hereafter.

The verses, 7, and 10-12, don't show anything like what you seem to expect...a "purifying by the fire", which the word says will destroy this earth.
Not purify it.

Well, that's what I was saying to Mr. Smith in post 450. The appearance of our Savior will show the manifestation of it. That's the point of our faith. That's how we know the Light of God appeared to the world, by the love he showed in face of immense suffering.

With no God there, there is no light.

The people in Moses' day never saw him, but they quaked when they saw a mountain quaking.

The same "darkness" without God.
But here we have the opportunity to turn from sin and be washed with the blood of Christ...which if men could be purified by fire later, would make the suffering and death of Jesus unnecessary.

We're being purified by fire now, as Jesus gave example of how pure he is. Please understand that our Lord needed no purification himself, but only as an example of how men should be, as he is, as his Father is. The coming of Jesus will reveal who he always was and our flesh as we know it will be gone, changed, purified.

In essence, I agree.
Everyone gets the chance to follow the Shepherd.

Amen!

I am grateful I could invoke the prophesy given to Israel.

It's a wonderful thing how the Messiah teaches gentiles about God. How wonderful it is to not be partial.

 

[journeyman]

I forgot to add, Jesus' followers considered their own sufferings as light affliction. That's where the light is.

 

[Hopeful]

Are you alluding to Lk.12:47-48? If so, our Lord is teaching on correction in this life, not the hereafter.

No, I was referring to the John 12:48 you supplied.

Well, that's what I was saying to Mr. Smith in post 450. The appearance of our Savior will show the manifestation of it. That's the point of our faith. That's how we know the Light of God appeared to the world, by the love he showed in face of immense suffering.
The people in Moses' day never saw him, but they quaked when they saw a mountain quaking.

We're being purified by fire now, as Jesus gave example of how pure he is. Please understand that our Lord needed no purification himself, but only as an example of how men should be, as he is, as his Father is. The coming of Jesus will reveal who he always was and our flesh as we know it will be gone, changed, purified.
Amen!
It's a wonderful thing how the Messiah teaches gentiles about God. How wonderful it is to not be partial.

Personally, I was purified, (justified, sanctified) by the blood of Christ.
If I could have been purified by something else, Jesus' death would have been pointless/unnecessary.

 

[Hopeful]

I forgot to add, Jesus' followers considered their own sufferings as light affliction. That's where the light is.

Those who follow Jesus won't need further purification.

 

[journeyman]

No, I was referring to the John 12:48 you supplied.

Then I don't understand your question, because I don't believe the unrepentant "pay less" on judgement day.

Personally, I was purified, (justified, sanctified) by the blood of Christ.
If I could have been purified by something else, Jesus' death would have been pointless/unnecessary.

We're not being purified by something else. The blood of our sweet Savior is his Life, which is being lived out in us, thus purifying us. All we need to do is surrender,

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2Cor.7:1

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 2Pet.3:14

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1Jn.1:7