Eternal hell with new creation?

[T. E. Smith]

The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?

 

[journeyman]

Those who follow Jesus won't need further purification.

Following Jesus is purification.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom.8:1

 

[T. E. Smith]

FYI, purgatory is not found in the Bible as there is no such place.

I don't disagree.

2 Maccabees is where Catholics get their idea of a purgatory and that everyone will go to be with Christ when He returns.

That is Protestant propaganda - Catholics get their doctrine of purgatory from a lot more than just 2 Maccabees.

 

[jeff77]

Hello, good topic here. I read through most of the post from the beginning. I have just a few comments.

There was a post from Butch5(and I cannot find the quote) that says something to the effect of our soul does not live on after death. Hidden In Him posted this scripture early in the thread.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Could it be that our soul is inactive until God gives us our spirit back at the resurrection? Considering body + spirit = soul? It's not that our soul ceases to exist because if it did then there would not be a soul to resurrect.

After we die the first thing that we should become aware of is eternal life at the resurrection. Even if there is 1,000 years until then...it won't seem like any time has passed to us.

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't disagree.

That is Protestant propaganda - Catholics get their doctrine of purgatory from a lot more than just 2 Maccabees.

Have you ever read 2 Maccabees or know anything about them?

 

[for_his_glory]

Hello, good topic here. I read through most of the post from the beginning. I have just a few comments.

There was a post from Butch5(and I cannot find the quote) that says something to the effect of our soul does not live on after death. Hidden In Him posted this scripture early in the thread.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Could it be that our soul is inactive until God gives us our spirit back at the resurrection? Considering body + spirit = soul? It's not that our soul ceases to exist because if it did then there would not be a soul to resurrect.

After we die the first thing that we should become aware of is eternal life at the resurrection. Even if there is 1,000 years until then...it won't seem like any time has passed to us.

This body/flesh dies and deteriorates as it turns back to dust while in the ground. The breath/spirit goes back to God who gave it, Ecc 12:7. The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body/flesh at death and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.

Without the spirit/breath from God our soul would not be alive as spirit and soul are connected, Genesis 2:7. When we physically die our soul, as the breath, goes back to God who gave it. 1 Corinthians Chapter 15:50-58 speaks of the resurrection of the dead as those who have died that are the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus as this is the first resurrection. We will not be raised from the grave in our old physical bodies, but will be raised with new Glorified bodies which we not know what we will look like, but will be like Christ, 1John 3:1-3.


​

 

[T. E. Smith]

Have you ever read 2 Maccabees or know anything about them?

I certainly have read it. It's just as much part of the Bible as the other books. I don't regularly quote it only because I'm still not too familiar with it. Yes, I've read C.S. Lewis' writings on Purgatory, as well as the extended section in the official Catholic catechism.

 

[for_his_glory]

I certainly have read it. It's just as much part of the Bible as the other books. I don't regularly quote it only because I'm still not too familiar with it. Yes, I've read C.S. Lewis' writings on Purgatory, as well as the extended section in the official Catholic catechism.

Basically I am just saying there is no such thing as purgatory and at least we agree on that.

 

[Francis]

Dorothy Mae I don't understand what motivates people to insist that one doesn't just lie in the grave. That is what happens as far as we can tell.

The evidence points towards there being more going on. 'The screen goes black' view of death is reductionist and unimaginative, which is why it's the 'scientific' go to (btw there is NO scientific method, the existence of such a thing is a lie they told in elementary school like Santa Clause) Einstein's theory of special relativity has little at all to do with 'the scientific method' and yet had direct impact on the destiny of humanity forever. Considering that Alexander the Great was a real person who conquered half the world in a lifetime, or that we have images of our universe taken from space, or that the ground beneath our feet is spinning at 1,000 miles an hour and the entire planet is hurtling around the sun at 67,000 miles an hour...its not far fetched to speculate that what happens after death is something far more amazing than what the world is ready for or that the world would readily admit.

 

[crossnote]

The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?

It continues to befuddle me how a person can use Scripture in support of their unbelief.
Bottom line, you are saying you don't believe the Bible is God's Word, or do you? Just cut to the chase.

 

[Edward]

It continues to befuddle me how a person can use Scripture in support of their unbelief.
Bottom line, you are saying you don't believe the Bible is God's Word, or do you? Just cut to the chase.

I sort of get the feeling we wont see him again. He's been gone for 15 days. I don't know anything. Just a feeling...

 

[crossnote]

I sort of get the feeling we wont see him again. He's been gone for 15 days. I don't know anything. Just a feeling...

'Her/She', correct?

 

[Edward]

'Her/She', correct?

WHo knows? First he said he was a boy then it was girl so I dunno.

 

[crossnote]

WHo knows? First he said he was a boy then it was girl so I dunno.

Gender confusion, sign of the times

 

[keiw1]

The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?

There is no literal Eternal suffering. False teachers that do not know God teach it as literal. God is LOVE, merciful, justice--He taught all perfect justice-An eye for an eye = perfect balance on Gods justice scales, uncorruptable.--That means if a mortal lives 70-100 years as a unrepented sinner, God could not condemn them to trillions x trillions x trillions of never ending years of suffering. Only a sadist could create such a reality. The true God set before all mankind-Deuteronomy 30:19= LIFE or DEATH both will be eternal.

 

[for_his_glory]

There is no literal Eternal suffering. False teachers that do not know God teach it as literal. God is LOVE, merciful, justice--He taught all perfect justice-An eye for an eye = perfect balance on Gods justice scales, uncorruptable.--That means if a mortal lives 70-100 years as a unrepented sinner, God could not condemn them to trillions x trillions x trillions of never ending years of suffering. Only a sadist could create such a reality. The true God set before all mankind-Deuteronomy 30:19= LIFE or DEATH both will be eternal.

FYI T.E. Smith is no longer a member here.

God sets before us cursing or blessings in how, or how not we are obedient to His commands as we read in Deuteronomy Chapter 27-28 as every person choices their own destiny.

Some say it's an eternal punishment from God to be cast into the lake of fire for an eternity of torment day and night, but God does not punish, but does takes vengeance on His enemies, Jude 1:7, as they along with Satan and the false profit will be tormented in the lake of fire day and night by the choices they made and judged for them, Rev 20:10.

 

[keiw1]

FYI T.E. Smith is no longer a member here.

God sets before us cursing or blessings in how, or how not we are obedient to His commands as we read in Deuteronomy Chapter 27-28 as every person choices their own destiny.

Some say it's an eternal punishment from God to be cast into the lake of fire for an eternity of torment day and night, but God does not punish, but does takes vengeance on His enemies, Jude 1:7, as they along with Satan and the false profit will be tormented in the lake of fire day and night by the choices they made and judged for them, Rev 20:10.

His justice scales prove it is not literal, but what it really means is this--- As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom, those not allowed to enter miss each new day, miss each day of Gods love, it never ends. Likened to be an eternal torment.
Jesus was clear--He said those walking the broad and spacious path will be destroyed--not granted eternal life of suffering.

 

[for_his_glory]

His justice scales prove it is not literal, but what it really means is this--- As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom, those not allowed to enter miss each new day, miss each day of Gods love, it never ends. Likened to be an eternal torment.
Jesus was clear--He said those walking the broad and spacious path will be destroyed--not granted eternal life of suffering.

Would you not think that being tormented night and day in the lake of fire not being for eternity?

It's not eternal life, but eternal suffering for eternity and they being remembered no more by God as their names are not found written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[keiw1]

Would you not think that being tormented night and day in the lake of fire not being for eternity?

It's not eternal life, but eternal suffering for eternity and they being remembered no more by God as their names are not found written in the Lamb's book of life.

A God of Love and merci and justice is not a sadist who would create a literal eternal suffering. Its impossible.

 

[crossnote]

There is no literal Eternal suffering. False teachers that do not know God teach it as literal. God is LOVE, merciful, justice--He taught all perfect justice-An eye for an eye = perfect balance on Gods justice scales, uncorruptable.--That means if a mortal lives 70-100 years as a unrepented sinner, God could not condemn them to trillions x trillions x trillions of never ending years of suffering. Only a sadist could create such a reality. The true God set before all mankind-Deuteronomy 30:19= LIFE or DEATH both will be eternal.

Creating God in our own image (and understanding) is not a good idea.
It is better to learn of Him in His Word, our fallen reasoning will not save us.
God is also HOLY.

 

[keiw1]

Creating God in our own image (and understanding) is not a good idea.
It is better to learn of Him in His Word, our fallen reasoning will not save us.
God is also HOLY.

Only a sadist could create a literal eternal suffering. I didnt create God in any image, his word shows truth. Many things are symbolism in his written word, to keep satan and his angels in spiritual darkness and mortals who havent found the teachers Jesus appointed. It takes effort to find them in this satan ruled system.