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Eternal hell with new creation?

T. E. Smith

T. E. Smith

Romantic Rationalist
Member
The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?
 
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T. E. Smith said:
The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?
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It's not clear to me whether you've been banned, T. E. Smith, but this is an interesting and worthwhile perspective. The problem with Universalism is that Jesus spoke pretty clearly about Hell - or at least the Gospels say he did, and Paul certainly did. I've argued with lots of Universalists, and they are the ultimate proof-texters - picking a couple of verses they like while ignoring or explaining away the many, many they don't. Some fairly serious theologians argue for Universalism, however.

I have, of course, heard all the apologetic justifications for the doctrine of Hell. They really aren't convincing or satisfying. I simply say, "If there is a Hell, whatever it is, we'll see in the end how it's worthy of the perfectly wise, perfectly just, perfectly holy and perfectly loving Creator in whom we trust." Right now, from my finite human perspective, I don't see how it's worthy.

Believing in Hell (or Universalism, for that matter) isn't one of my Christian essentials. So I'm content with the "we'll see in the end" approach. If I had to bet my life savings, I'd bet that something like Universalism, or at least a broader and more inclusive understanding of what it means to be saved, is closer to the truth.
 
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keiw1 said:
Symbolism about eternal suffering--The lake of fire= destruction. By God throwing Death and Hades into the lake of fire, proves its destruction. They cannot suffer, they can be destroyed forever. You really think a God of love would condemn nothing mortals to eternal suffering? Believe Deuteronomy 30:19--its reality.
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Love is just one of His attributes. He is also a God of justice and of holiness, We can't reduce God down to just one attribute called love.
 
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wondering said:
I don't believe Rev 20 supports eternal hell.
Doesn't the Lake of Fire cause everything to die?

Or do you think That is hell?
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Not sure of your point, whichever way you slice it, the torment will be eternal...

Revelation 14:10-11 (KJV) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
 
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crossnote said:
Not sure of your point, whichever way you slice it, the torment will be eternal...

Revelation 14:10-11 (KJV) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
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Hi crossnote
I'm not too sure of my point myself.
I just haven't considered this too much.
John says the smoke lasts forever.
He certainly must know, right?
 
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Runner said:
It's not clear to me whether you've been banned, T. E. Smith, but this is an interesting and worthwhile perspective. The problem with Universalism is that Jesus spoke pretty clearly about Hell - or at least the Gospels say he did, and Paul certainly did. I've argued with lots of Universalists, and they are the ultimate proof-texters - picking a couple of verses they like while ignoring or explaining away the many, many they don't. Some fairly serious theologians argue for Universalism, however.

I have, of course, heard all the apologetic justifications for the doctrine of Hell. They really aren't convincing or satisfying. I simply say, "If there is a Hell, whatever it is, we'll see in the end how it's worthy of the perfectly wise, perfectly just, perfectly holy and perfectly loving Creator in whom we trust." Right now, from my finite human perspective, I don't see how it's worthy.

Believing in Hell (or Universalism, for that matter) isn't one of my Christian essentials. So I'm content with the "we'll see in the end" approach. If I had to bet my life savings, I'd bet that something like Universalism, or at least a broader and more inclusive understanding of what it means to be saved, is closer to the truth.
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What is closer to the truth for you?
 
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I wonder what would happen if...after Jusus's return if the entire body of Christ (us), all prayed at once for the condemned to be released?

Would God do it in His infinite mercy and love for His children? But then, what if He says if there are only 5 righteous people?! Uh Oh.
 
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wondering said:
Do you think rev. 20 states hell is forever?
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Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The second death are those who have rejected God and His Son Christ Jesus, According to John 5:28-29 we read that some are resurrected to damnation in which hell being the grave where the dead are laid they remain Spiritually dead forever as in the sense of like being forgotten in a grave as they are remembered no more and eternally separated from God.

Hope this makes sense. If not let me know and I will elaborate more on this later as I have to leave right now.
 
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Edward said:
I wonder what would happen if...after Jusus's return if the entire body of Christ (us), all prayed at once for the condemned to be released?

Would God do it in His infinite mercy and love for His children? But then, what if He says if there are only 5 righteous people?! Uh Oh.
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That's purgatory,and Judaism has that.

These would have to want to and at our death there is no chance of repentance.
 
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