Eternal life being tormented in Hell or Death, What is the wages of sin?

[WIP]

Trolling is a violation of our ToS. Let's avoid the personal comments and stick to the topic, please. We are here to build each other up, grow in our faith, learn from one another and the scriptures.

 

[TimothyW]

Within the "massive Scripture" you posted, there are only a few verses that truly seem to back up your view, The others, not so much. [Edited by staff] There have been numerous refutations of YOUR INTERPRETATION of the words mentioned above from others. There have been numerous verses which others have posted that seem to teach eternal punishment exists. Allen posted a biblical EXAMPLE of humans who are being eternally punished. You just ignore all this and keep parroting "death", "perishing", etc.

If there are two seemingly contradictory views within Scripture the proper tack is to reconcile them, not pick a side and ignore all the evidence to the contrary.

I believe that all of the scriptures that I posted support the premise that the wicked are destroyed. That's what they say, go back and re-read them. Hebrews 10:27 specifically says that the fire will consume God's enemies. You say that the verse Allen posted is an example of humans who are eternally tormented. I assume you mean the devil, the beast and the false prophet. If these are human, they are the strangest examples of humans around. One of them has seven heads, and who ever claimed that the devil was human? And you admit that "a few verses" back up my view. Well, isn't that enough? There aren't any verses that say that the wicked go to hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever. But there are many verses that directly say that the wicked will perish, will be destroyed and will be no more. It is not "My Interpretation", I am just repeating what the Bible actually says.

 

[chessman]

Within the "massive Scripture" you posted, there are only a few verses that truly seem to back up your view, The others, not so much. [Edited by staff]
.

I was kind of interested in which of the 50+ verses that have been posted contrasting eternal life to death (in our interpretation of them) did you find as a laughable interpretation and why? I know that was edited out, and probably should have been. But if you do not explain why, you laughed, we're kind of just left with an image of you laughing.

Also, What are the few that stand out as possible ("seem to") support death and why?

 

[dadof10]

I believe that all of the scriptures that I posted support the premise that the wicked are destroyed. That's what they say, go back and re-read them. Hebrews 10:27 specifically says that the fire will consume God's enemies. You say that the verse Allen posted is an example of humans who are eternally tormented. I assume you mean the devil, the beast and the false prophet.

No, just the beast and the false prophet. The devil is not human, but the beast and the false prophet are. Could you please respond to this, thanks.

If these are human, they are the strangest examples of humans around. One of them has seven heads, and who ever claimed that the devil was human? And you admit that "a few verses" back up my view.

I said a few verses SEEM to back up your view.

Well, isn't that enough? There aren't any verses that say that the wicked go to hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever.

There is an example though, listed above.

But there are many verses that directly say that the wicked will perish, will be destroyed and will be no more. It is not "My Interpretation", I am just repeating what the Bible actually says.

You are interpreting "perish" and "destroy" and "death" to mean annihilate. Do you think these words could be interpreted any other way? You keep repeating "There aren't any verses that say that the wicked go to hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever". There aren't any that say the damned are annihilated either, but you readily accept the premise.

Take a look at the word "death". If there is a "first death" and "second death" don't you think it goes without saying that the word "death" doesn't mean annihilation, or at least can be interpreted another way? If people suffer a first death, there is something left behind for the second one, right? All the verses you quote with the word "death" in them do not support your argument for this reason. "The wages of sin is death..." could mean that death came into the world because of sin. We all sin, so we all suffer a physical death. If it means "the wages of sin is annihilation", then we ALL get annihilated because we all sin. It's the same with the other words you will ONLY interpret as annihilation.

There can, and are, different definitions for the words you claim mean annihilate. There can be no other explanation for the two PEOPLE (the false prophet and the beast, not the devil) who are being eternally tormented. This is why it's such a good argument and has to be at least factored in and not just ignored.

 

[dadof10]

I was kind of interested in which of the 50+ verses that have been posted contrasting eternal life to death (in our interpretation of them) did you find as a laughable interpretation and why? I know that was edited out, and probably should have been. But if you do not explain why, you laughed, we're kind of just left with an image of you laughing.

Also, What are the few that stand out as possible ("seem to") support death and why?

I don't have that much time, Chessman. The verses with "death" in them come to mind because Scripture speaks of a "second death", which assumes the "first death" doesn't mean annihilation. Therefore, biblically, the word "death" doesn't have to mean annihilate.

 

[Butch5]

For those who are arguing for eternal punishment I have a question. The gift of God is eternal life, why are the wicked given the gift of God promised to the believer?

 

[Butch5]

I have another question. Can someone show me where Scripture says that the wages of sin is eternal torment in the flames of Gehenna?

Another question. If the punishment for sins is to suffer in eternal torment in the flames of Gehenna, who paid for the Christians sins? Jesus didn't suffer eternal torment in the flames of Gehenna, so if that is the penalty for sins then sin have not been paid for. If that is the case then it seems there is no salvation.

 

[TimothyW]

Dadof10. According to the bible the beast is not human. In that verse there are 2 nonhumans. I believe the false prophet is also not human, due to the close association with the other 2. Don't forget what type of book Revelation is. You should expect to see symbols in John's vision.

Your objection about the second death proving that the first death is not death doesn't work because I believe that the dead are raised to life before the second death. Christians are resurrected and remain alive. We don't perish like those who reject Christ will. They die a second time. This second death is "the second death".

You claimed that I believe the Bible says "the wages of sin is annihilation". I never said that. I believe that the wages of sin is death just as the Bible says. I don't redefine death to mean eternal life. I believe that death really is death.

I'm just saying what the bible says. I believe it "as written". Death is death. Eternal life is being alive forever. Perishing is becoming dead. Dead means not alive. Destruction means destruction. I'm not changing the meaning of anything. This leads me to the conclusion that the wages of sin is death and not eternal life in hell being tortured alive in fire.

 

[chessman]

No, just the beast and the false prophet. The devil is not human, but the beast and the false prophet are. Could you please respond to this, thanks.


There can be no other explanation for the two PEOPLE (the false prophet and the beast, not the devil) who are being eternally tormented. This is why it's such a good argument and has to be at least factored in and not just ignored.

If I took the time to show you where Scripture proves The Beast and The False Prophet are definitely not humans, would you believe it?

 

[JLB]

I have another question. Can someone show me where Scripture says that the wages of sin is eternal torment in the flames of Gehenna?

Another question. If the punishment for sins is to suffer in eternal torment in the flames of Gehenna, who paid for the Christians sins? Jesus didn't suffer eternal torment in the flames of Gehenna, so if that is the penalty for sins then sin have not been paid for. If that is the case then it seems there is no salvation.

Look at the account of Abraham and the rich man and Lazarus.

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores , 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass , that the beggar died , and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died , and was buried ; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said , Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said , Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted , and thou art tormented . 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed : so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot ; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said , I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said , Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent . 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded , though one rose from the dead. Luke 16:19-31


Tormented Strong's Number: 3600 Odunao

Definition

1. to cause intense pain
2. to be in anguish, be tormented
3. to torment or distress one's self

JLB

 

[Butch5]

Look at the account of Abraham and the rich man and Lazarus.

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores , 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass , that the beggar died , and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died , and was buried ; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said , Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said , Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted , and thou art tormented . 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed : so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot ; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said , I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said , Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent . 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded , though one rose from the dead. Luke 16:19-31


Tormented Strong's Number: 3600 Odunao

Definition

1. to cause intense pain
2. to be in anguish, be tormented
3. to torment or distress one's self

JLB

Hi JLB,

We've discussed this passage before. There are too many problems to accept that as a literal account. Hades is not the place of torment that is Gehenna. Hades is the grave, all people, even believers go to Hades. If that's the place of torment then believers too will be in the flames.

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB,

We've discussed this passage before. There are too many problems to accept that as a literal account. Hades is not the place of torment that is Gehenna. Hades is the grave, all people, even believers go to Hades. If that's the place of torment then believers too will be in the flames.

There is no problem with what Jesus said.

Jesus said these words; the rich man also died , and was buried ; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments

Jesus spoke these words.

Each person has a choice to believe or not believe what Jesus said.

JLB

 

[TimothyW]

There is no problem with what Jesus said.

Jesus said these words; the rich man also died , and was buried ; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments

Jesus spoke these words.

Each person has a choice to believe or not believe what Jesus said.

JLB

Jesus said that the way is wide that leads to destruction. As you say, it is up to each person to believe or not believe what Jesus said. I do. I also believe Jesus on the parable of Lazarus and the rich man and I know that he was not talking about the final judgment because the rich man's brothers were still alive. So I believe Jesus in both cases. But I don't believe in eternal torture in hell.

I don't appreciate your implication that if we don't agree with you we don't agree with Jesus. Play nice.

 

[chessman]

You are interpreting "perish" and "destroy" and "death" to mean annihilate. ...

Take a look at the word "death". If there is a "first death" and "second death" don't you think it goes without saying that the word "death" doesn't mean annihilation, or at least can be interpreted another way? If people suffer a first death, there is something left behind for the second one, right?

Providentially it has not gone without saying. We have the Biblical definition.

Matthew 10:28
New International Version (NIV)

28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

since both soul and body are destroyed in Hell, can you think of a better word to describe it than annihilation? If so, we could use that word. Of this destruction that comes after a first one (that's only the body) can you think of a better description than 2nd death to describe it?

 

[chessman]

Jesus said these words; the rich man also died , and was buried ; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments

Jesus spoke these words.

Each person has a choice to believe or not believe what Jesus said.

JLB

. Actually, technically, no He didn't. Jesus didn't speak in English to his disciples. They wouldn't have understood Him. He actually said "
86 [e]
hadē
ᾅδῃ
Hades

Evidently, by the time 1611 came around, people used the word Hades and Hell interchangeably. This, the KJV felt okay using it for the Greek. But the Bible itself does not. Nor did Jesus. Nor did the Jews of 1st Century.

 

[JLB]

Providentially it has not gone without saying. We have the Biblical definition.

Matthew 10:28
New International Version (NIV)

28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

since both soul and body are destroyed in Hell, can you think of a better word to describe it than annihilation? If so, we could use that word. Of this destruction that comes after a first one (that's only the body) can you think of a better description than 2nd death to describe it?

How long does it take for the soul to be destroyed in hell, while it is in the flames burning.

then, at some point, hell and death as well as those whose name are not written in the book of life, will be thrown into the lake of fire.

It would stand to reason, that for a person to go from hell, to the final judgment, then to be cast into the lake of fire, they would in fact not be annihilated, as you say.

So the answer would be NO.

Annihilation would not at all be an appropriate word to describe the process of a soul being destroyed in hell.

Angelic spirits such as the Devil or his angels, or human spirits, such as the false prophet, both are the same when it comes to being tormented into the lake of fire.

The word of God that illustrates this truth is;

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

"They" describes both angelic spirit and human spirit, being tormented day and night forever and ever in the lake of fire.



JLB

 

[chessman]

How long does it take for the soul to be destroyed in hell, while it is in the flames burning.

then, at some point, hell and death as well as those whose name are not written in the book of life, will be thrown into the lake of fire.

It would stand to reason, that for a person to go from hell, to the final judgment, then to be cast into the lake of fire, they would in fact not be annihilated, as you say.

So the answer would be NO.

Annihilation would not at all be an appropriate word to describe the process of a soul being destroyed in hell.

Angelic spirits such as the Devil or his angels, or human spirits, such as the false prophet, both are the same when it comes to being tormented into the lake of fire.

The word of God that illustrates this truth is;

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

"They" describes both angelic spirit and human spirit, being tormented day and night forever and ever in the lake of fire.



JLB

The Beast and the False Prophet are not humans and I can prove it via Scripture. If they were humans, then you are right about that one passage. It does say THEY will be tormented forever.

If i showed you two different ways to prove John's vision did NOT mean theses to be understood as human, would you believe it? Just that one verse, at least, cannot be used to teach ECT for humans?

 

[JLB]

The Beast and the False Prophet are not humans and I can prove it via Scripture. If they were humans, then you are right about that one passage. It does say THEY will be tormented forever.

If i showed you two different ways to prove John's vision did NOT mean theses to be understood as human, would you believe it? Just that one verse, at least, cannot be used to teach ECT for humans?

So now you are teaching that a false prophet is not human, to substantiate your claim that tormented day and night in the lake of fire actually means annihilation?

It would stand to reason, that for a person to go from hell, to the final judgment, then to be cast into the lake of fire, they would in fact not be annihilated, as you say.


JLB

 

[chessman]

So now you are teaching that a false prophet is not human, to substantiate your claim that tormented day and night in the lake of fire actually means annihilation?

It would stand to reason, that for a person to go from hell, to the final judgment, then to be cast into the lake of fire, they would in fact not be annihilated, as you say.


JLB

You changed what i said from The False to a false prophet. Then turned right around and used that falsehood to say that i have taught something that i've not. shame, shame on you. And i simply asked you if you are willing to look at objective Scriptures that prove The False Prophet is not meant to represent any human in John's vision. Which you didn't answer.

If I had an incorrect understanding of a passage (which i'm not above doing) I'd want to know it.

For example, Matt 10:28. I don't understand how it makes any difference how long burning takes to be destroyed in Hell. Destroyed means just what it sounds like. Why does it matter how long it takes?

And again, Hell is not Hades.

 

[JLB]

You changed what i said from The False to a false prophet. Then turned right around and used that falsehood to say that i have taught something that i've not. shame, shame on you. And i simply asked you if you are willing to look at objective Scriptures that prove The False Prophet is not meant to represent any human in John's vision. Which you didn't answer.

If I had an incorrect understanding of a passage (which i'm not above doing) I'd want to know it.

For example, Matt 10:28. I don't understand how it makes any difference how long burning takes to be destroyed in Hell. Destroyed means just what it sounds like. Why does it matter how long it takes?

And again, Hell is not Hades.

It would stand to reason, that for a person to go from hell, to the final judgment, then to be cast into the lake of fire, they would in fact not be annihilated, as you say.

A false prophet who is called the false prophet is a human.

All the word twisting in the world will not change that fact.

The false prophet and the devil are both thrown into the lake of fire and tormented forever.

Likewise those whose names are not written in the book of life are also thrown into the lake of fire and tormented.

Those who follow the false prophet and the beast and the devil will likewise all suffer the same fate together.

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Revelation 14:10-11

Shame on you for twisting and distorting the straight forward truth that the word teaches, from the book of revelation.

WARNING!!! - and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


JLB