Eternal life being tormented in Hell or Death, What is the wages of sin?

[chessman]

I see you are upset and asking me a question a second time that i already answered for you (i don't know how long the Devil's destruction on Earth will take or his followers at that time), ignoring my question to you ( you realize this is a pre-judgement vision?) and telling me not to post Scripture that uses the "smoke that rises forever and ever" phrase in a way opposite from your interpretation.

So I'll just bow out of our personal conversation and thank you for your evidence for ECT.

 

[JLB]

I see you are upset and asking me a question a second time that i already answered for you (i don't know how long the Devil's destruction on Earth will take or his followers at that time), ignoring my question to you ( you realize this is a pre-judgement vision?) and telling me not to post Scripture that uses the "smoke that rises forever and ever" phrase in a way opposite from your interpretation.

So I'll just bow out of our personal conversation and thank you for your evidence for ECT.

Any scriptures that refer to the lake of fire in the book Of Revelation are great.


Thanks, JLB

 

[reba]

Eternal life being tormented in Hell or Death, What is the wages of sin?


This is the topic

 

[TimothyW]

Please answer my question from the scripture I posted.

Please don't try to distract from the scripture that I posted.


JLB

I've already addressed your verse numerous times.
I've posted over 50 verses that specifically support my position and you haven't addressed any of them.

I know that you think conditional immortality is a foul heresy, but since I've given so much scriptural evidence for it, don't you think you should address it?
Even if you believe conditional immortality is a heresy, there is no reason we can't discuss this calmly and rationally. If you did that, you would make more headway in your battle against it.

 

[WIP]

For the wages of sin is an eternal timeout. No...that's not it...What is the wages of sin?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Agreeing with what the Bible says is the wages of sin is not "trying desperately to lessen or lighten the consequences" of sin.

I think that we, as Christians, should agree with what the Bible says.
People think I'm weird for believing that.

It matters a lot because of what it says about the nature of God. Is God a God who set up a place of eternal torment? Or is God a God who rescues us from the inherent consequences of our sin?
In any matter, destruction doesn't lessen the consequences at all. Does the doctrine of eternal torment lessen the consequences of sin by claiming that a person can sin and not be destroyed? (who was it that said of sin, "Surely you will NOT die?) Whether the wages of sin is death or eternal conscious torment, a person should surrender themselves to God. But isn't it vitally (literally!) important to understand what the scriptures say? If the scriptures said "For the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment in H.E. Double Hockey-sticks, but the gift of God is that a person in Christ can escape the torture", Then I would believe that completely. So, shouldn't a person (such as Mr JLB) believe the Bible when it says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"?

But I think that is what we do….in an abstract kind of way. In our world view it’s easier to accept a physical death than it is to accept a lifetime of torture and torment without death. Given the choice, who among us would choose a lifetime of excruciatingly painful torture over a quick and painless death? Isn’t that sometimes part of the motivation for suicide? A person who has become distraught and depressed over what is perceived as insurmountable strife, hurt, and pain decides death is preferable to continued suffering.

In a similar way I think we transfer a similar line of thinking into an acceptance of our transgressions against God in order to relieve ourselves of the feelings of guilt. In a twisted sort of way we can accept the consequences a little easier when we isolate eternal torment (suffering) from eternal separation (death) from God. For the Christian, are these not one and the same? My thought is neither is any more acceptable. Separation from God is torment in and of itself.

I might be getting too close to hijacking this thread so I'll let it be at that.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.Revelation 14:10

How long does this scripture indicate the torment to last.


JLB

Newsflash! Jesus and his angel will not be present in Heaven because FOR ALL ETERNITY he will be busy administering/watching the torture of those that worshipped the beast.

 

[JLB]

I've already addressed your verse numerous times.
I've posted over 50 verses that specifically support my position and you haven't addressed any of them.

I know that you think conditional immortality is a foul heresy, but since I've given so much scriptural evidence for it, don't you think you should address it?
Even if you believe conditional immortality is a heresy, there is no reason we can't discuss this calmly and rationally. If you did that, you would make more headway in your battle against it.

Discussing this calmly and scripturally is what I have been doing.

I don't think there is much to rationalize about what is said in this verse.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Revelation 14:9-11

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone.

We agree on the torment with fire and brimstone.

The only part you seem to disagree on is - the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever;

Smoke indicates that something is burning.

You would have us believe that smoke indicates nothing is burning.


JLB

 

[tagan]

Please use scripture for your thoughts.


Thanks.


JLB

We were just talking about how some verses say eternal fire, and other verses say something different.
I think the verses have already been presented

THANKS!

 

[Butch5]

Their bodies have died.

Their spirit man has gone to death, death itself has been assigned to the lake of fire.

Those that have been assigned to death will join death in the lake of fire.

They will be tormented in the lake of fire.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14

... anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

You don't want to be cast into the lake of fire.

It won't be good.

Heaven = Good.

Lake of fire = Bad.

All the Greek words and explanations, as well as "theories" will not stop you from burning, if you yourself are cast into the lake of fire.


JLB

There is no spirit man to torment. Therefore they are alive. The passage doesn't say they're dead.

 

[Butch5]

Here is what the scripture concerning the lake of fire says -

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation.

The warning from the angel of God, concerning those who worship the beast or receive his mark.

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

The result of those who refuse to heed the warning. They shall be tormented in the lake of fire.

...He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone


11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

those that are tormented in the lake of fire, have no rest day or night.


Please share what scriptures you have about the lake of fire.


JLB

JLB,

Are you suggesting that The Lamb and the Holy angels are in the Lake of Fire. The passage says those who receive the mark will be tormented in the presence of the Lamb and the Holy angels.

These passages don't mention the Lake of Fire, why are you assuming this is in the Lake if Fire.

Also, I disagree with your premise. Your argument presumes that man has a spirit that lives on after physical death, this is not what the Scriptures teach. That idea entered into the church several hundred years after Christ. The idea comes from Greek Philosophy (Plato) and also from Gnosticism.

 

[JLB]

There is no spirit man to torment. Therefore they are alive. The passage doesn't say they're dead.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:13-14

They are dead.

The sea gave up the dead who were in it...

anyone is a reference to a person, not a body, but a person.

anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

The argument that man has a spirit that lives on in the Lake of fire is based on a presumption that man has a spirit. There is one spirit in man and that is God's. Unless someone can make a case for any other spirit in man the argument carries no weight.

 

[Butch5]

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:13-14

They are dead.

The sea gave up the dead who were in it...

anyone is a reference to a person, not a body, but a person.

anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


JLB

They are bodies because they were resurrected to stand judgment. You're argument is based on a presumption that you simply cannot prove from the Scriptures.

28 Don't be surprised at this; because the time is coming when all who are in the grave will hear his voice
29 and come out- those who have done good to a resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to a resurrection of judgment. (Joh 5:28-29 CJB)

It is the body that goes into the grave and that's what is resurrected and judged.

 

[JLB]

The argument that man has a spirit that lives on in the Lake of fire is based on a presumption that man has a spirit. There is one spirit in man and that is God's. Unless someone can make a case for any other spirit in man the argument carries no weight.

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

... and forms the spirit of man within him:

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9

if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.


JLB

 

[jeff77]

I really like this subject. I started a similar thread about a year ago. A lot of scripture has already been posted and some might say that it could support either side. Other than scripture people say that they sometimes come to their conclusion that hell is not eternal because it does not fit the character/nature of God. Knowing that God provides everybody with the freedom to choose between redemption and rebbellion, it doesn't seem to fit the just nature of God to create them with a choice and then annihilate them because of their choices.

 

[TimothyW]

Discussing this calmly and scripturally is what I have been doing.

I don't think there is much to rationalize about what is said in this verse.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Revelation 14:9-11

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone.

We agree on the torment with fire and brimstone.

The only part you seem to disagree on is - the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever;

Smoke indicates that something is burning.

You would have us believe that smoke indicates nothing is burning.

JLB

I've already addressed what that verse says, over and over.
Could you begin to address the mountain of scripture I gave you in defense of my position?
I know that it is a lot of scripture and altogether is it a bit overwhelming. Can we take it verse by verse?
Please tell me why you don't think this passage describes the destruction of unrepentant sinners:
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14 NASB
Jesus is saying straight out and plain that one way leads to destruction and the other way leads to life. How much more clear could He have made it that unrepentant sinners are destroyed and those who repent and turn to him receive eternal life? The passage you gave doesn't say that unrepentant sinners go to Hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever, but the passage I showed you clearly states that one way leads to destruction and the other way leads to life. You also misrepresented the doctrine of Conditional Immortality when you said "You would have us believe that smoke indicates nothing is burning". On the contrary, we believe that the sinner is destroyed and the Revelation passage uses the imagery of smoke ascending to describe this destruction.

So please, address the scripture I've given you as I've addressed your verse. Why do you think Jesus doesn't mean what He says in Matthew 7:13 and 14?

 

[TimothyW]

But I think that is what we do….in an abstract kind of way. In our world view it’s easier to accept a physical death than it is to accept a lifetime of torture and torment without death. Given the choice, who among us would choose a lifetime of excruciatingly painful torture over a quick and painless death? Isn’t that sometimes part of the motivation for suicide? A person who has become distraught and depressed over what is perceived as insurmountable strife, hurt, and pain decides death is preferable to continued suffering.

In a similar way I think we transfer a similar line of thinking into an acceptance of our transgressions against God in order to relieve ourselves of the feelings of guilt. In a twisted sort of way we can accept the consequences a little easier when we isolate eternal torment (suffering) from eternal separation (death) from God. For the Christian, are these not one and the same? My thought is neither is any more acceptable. Separation from God is torment in and of itself.

I might be getting too close to hijacking this thread so I'll let it be at that.

I don't believe that God's punishment depends on whichever punishment we would like to have less. We can know what the punishment for sin is because the Bible tells us that it is death. Also, the Bible never once says that the punishment for sin is to have eternal life in Hell being tormented alive after death. We aren't given the choice between an eternity of torture or death. The wages of sin is death, and we are not given the choice to change that, even if we can imagine a worse punishment than death. Perhaps death is better than a lifetime of suffering, but it doesn't follow from that that God set up a place of eternal suffering. Neither death nor eternal conscious suffering in Hell are preferable to eternal life with Christ. But the Bible says that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ. There is no third option, eternal life outside of Christ, in Hell being tortured alive forever. The Bible simply does not say that. And whether it is easier to accept the consequence of sin doesn't change what the consequence of sin is. The wages of sin is death.

 

[JLB]

I've already addressed what that verse says, over and over.
Could you begin to address the mountain of scripture I gave you in defense of my position?
I know that it is a lot of scripture and altogether is it a bit overwhelming. Can we take it verse by verse?
Please tell me why you don't think this passage describes the destruction of unrepentant sinners:
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14 NASB
Jesus is saying straight out and plain that one way leads to destruction and the other way leads to life. How much more clear could He have made it that unrepentant sinners are destroyed and those who repent and turn to him receive eternal life? The passage you gave doesn't say that unrepentant sinners go to Hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever, but the passage I showed you clearly states that one way leads to destruction and the other way leads to life. You also misrepresented the doctrine of Conditional Immortality when you said "You would have us believe that smoke indicates nothing is burning". On the contrary, we believe that the sinner is destroyed and the Revelation passage uses the imagery of smoke ascending to describe this destruction.

So please, address the scripture I've given you as I've addressed your verse. Why do you think Jesus doesn't mean what He says in Matthew 7:13 and 14?

Life = equals joined with God.

Destruction = apart from God in the lake of fire being tormented.

The only question that remains is how long does this torment last?




JLB

 

[TimothyW]

Life = equals joined with God.

Destruction = apart from God in the lake of fire being tormented.

The only question that remains is how long does this torment last?
JLB

Does "Life" equal "joined with God"? Does the Bible say this anywhere? I think "life" means "the state of being alive", conscious, not dead.
Does "destruction" equal "apart from God in the lake of fire being tormented"? Where does the Bible says this? Isn't this merely an assumption on the part of people who believe that the final punishment is being in the lake of fire being tormented alive forever? Should we redefine the words in the Bible so that they match up with the theology we want, or should we read the words of the bible and get out theology from what the Bible says? I'm saying that "destruction" does NOT mean everlasting NON-destruction in the lake of fire being tormented. If you want destruction to mean non-destruction, you are going to have to prove that from the Bible. You haven't done this. Destruction means "being destroyed". Once a person goes to this destruction, the second death, they remain destroyed forever. If the question is "How long do they remain destroyed?", the answer is forever.

 

[jeff77]

If destruction = being destroyed that to me could mean in the process of being destroyed, but still alive. That shows me that a person could be thrown into the lake of fire and be in a state of continuous destruction, but never die.