Eternal life being tormented in Hell or Death, What is the wages of sin?

[TimothyW]

If destruction = being destroyed that to me could mean in the process of being destroyed, but still alive. That shows me that a person could be thrown into the lake of fire and be in a state of continuous destruction, but never die.

But is that what the Bible says, or is that a justification of the belief that destruction equals nondestruction?
What the Bible says is that the lake of fire is the second death. It takes these mental gymnastics to cause that to mean eternal life in hell.

 

[Butch5]

The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

... and forms the spirit of man within him:

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9

if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

JLB

Yes, the Spirit of Christ. You guys aren't talking about the Spirit of Christ, you're talking about a spirit in man that suffers eternally in the Lake of fire. Please show me where Scripture teaches that man has a spirit that suffers in the Lake of fire. Grabbing a passage or two isn't making a case or showing where Scripture teaches something. I can grab passages from all over and say they mean this or that. It doesn't meant that's what the Scriptures teach. The creation account in Genesis tells us how God created man.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

There it is. The dust of the ground and the breath/spirit of life, the two became a living soul. That's what a man is. There is nothing else there. So, when the Scriptures talk about the spirit/breath in a man it is God's spirit/breath. It's the life force that God has put in all men. Man isn't some spiritual being that is wearing flesh. That as I said is from Greek Philosophy. So, does man have more than one spirit/breath in him?

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Ecc 3:18-21 KJV)

Both man and beast have "one" ruach, spirit/breath. Just one. Notice where they go when they die. "All are of the dust, and all return to the dust. The Ruach, spirit/breath that God put in them returns to God. There is nothing left to live on.

Ezekiel give an account of the resurrection in Chapter 37.
KJV Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Eze 37:1-14 KJV)

I highlighted the word Ruach in red in this passage. Everyh word in red is the Hebrew word Ruach. Notice God doesn't say I'll bring your bodies out of the ground and reunite them with you spirit. He says I'll breing your bodies out of the grave and puit "MY" ruach in you and you will live. It is God's ruach that give man life. Without it he would not exist. Again we see the same thing as we saw in Genesis a body and God's spirit/breath.

 

[WIP]

I don't believe that God's punishment depends on whichever punishment we would like to have less. We can know what the punishment for sin is because the Bible tells us that it is death. Also, the Bible never once says that the punishment for sin is to have eternal life in Hell being tormented alive after death. We aren't given the choice between an eternity of torture or death. The wages of sin is death, and we are not given the choice to change that, even if we can imagine a worse punishment than death. Perhaps death is better than a lifetime of suffering, but it doesn't follow from that that God set up a place of eternal suffering. Neither death nor eternal conscious suffering in Hell are preferable to eternal life with Christ. But the Bible says that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ. There is no third option, eternal life outside of Christ, in Hell being tortured alive forever. The Bible simply does not say that. And whether it is easier to accept the consequence of sin doesn't change what the consequence of sin is. The wages of sin is death.

My point is, does it really matter? Whether the Bible says we are eternally separated or become non-existant, in both cases we endure eternal separation from God Almighty. Is there a point to arguing which is which? As Christians, can we even imagine anything worse? I can't.

 

[TimothyW]

My point is, does it really matter? Whether the Bible says we are eternally separated or become non-existant, in both cases we endure eternal separation from God Almighty. Is there a point to arguing which is which? As Christians, can we even imagine anything worse? I can't.

Okay, If there is no point, then we don't need to discuss it.

However, I was looking through the threads on Christian Forums, there was one about carving pumpkins, one about the christian fish sign, one about tattoos, etc.
What is wrong with reading the Bible and trying to determine from the Bible what happens to people when they die? If someone says "God burns them alive forever", am I not allowed to say "I don't think that the Bible says that". I suppose I could just talk about whether the Bible says we should put a Jesus Fish on an SUV, but I'm really not that interested in that topic. I just don't respond to topics that I'm not interested in or that I don't think are important enough to talk about. Perhaps you could view this thread in that way. If you aren't interested in whether God set up a place of torture or He rescues those who have fallen under the penalty of sin from death, you don't need to participate. I think the topic is important because of what it says about God.

 

[JLB]

Okay, If there is no point, then we don't need to discuss it.

However, I was looking through the threads on Christian Forums, there was one about carving pumpkins, one about the christian fish sign, one about tattoos, etc.
What is wrong with reading the Bible and trying to determine from the Bible what happens to people when they die? If someone says "God burns them alive forever", am I not allowed to say "I don't think that the Bible says that". I suppose I could just talk about whether the Bible says we should put a Jesus Fish on an SUV, but I'm really not that interested in that topic. I just don't respond to topics that I'm not interested in or that I don't think are important enough to talk about. Perhaps you could view this thread in that way. If you aren't interested in whether God set up a place of torture or He rescues those who have fallen under the penalty of sin from death, you don't need to participate. I think the topic is important because of what it says about God.

Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Revelation 14:9-11

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...

Those who worship the beast and take his mark shall be tormented.

Torment is not instant. Torment means to torture.

Torment or torture requires that the one being tormented or tortured is aware of the torment.

Torment or torture requires a period of time.

What in these verse's indicates that the torment ceases?


JLB

 

[TimothyW]

One verse in the book of revelation that doesn't even say what you want it to say does not trump the 50 passages that I posted that say exactly what I am saying. I've shown you the Greek word that is translated torment. I've explained all of this to you before.

 

[JLB]

One verse in the book of revelation that doesn't even say what you want it to say does not trump the 50 passages that I posted that say exactly what I am saying. I've shown you the Greek word that is translated torment. I've explained all of this to you before.

What in these verse's indicates that the torment ceases?

 

[WIP]

Okay, If there is no point, then we don't need to discuss it.

However, I was looking through the threads on Christian Forums, there was one about carving pumpkins, one about the christian fish sign, one about tattoos, etc.
What is wrong with reading the Bible and trying to determine from the Bible what happens to people when they die? If someone says "God burns them alive forever", am I not allowed to say "I don't think that the Bible says that". I suppose I could just talk about whether the Bible says we should put a Jesus Fish on an SUV, but I'm really not that interested in that topic. I just don't respond to topics that I'm not interested in or that I don't think are important enough to talk about. Perhaps you could view this thread in that way. If you aren't interested in whether God set up a place of torture or He rescues those who have fallen under the penalty of sin from death, you don't need to participate. I think the topic is important because of what it says about God.

It seems you might be missing my point or intentionally avoiding it. That's okay. There's also nothing wrong with raising your questions and digging deeper into scripture. I didn't intend to suggest there was.

 

[JLB]

One verse in the book of revelation that doesn't even say what you want it to say does not trump the 50 passages that I posted that say exactly what I am saying. I've shown you the Greek word that is translated torment. I've explained all of this to you before.

Torment Strong's Number: 929 - Basanismos

Definition

1. to torture, a testing by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2. torment, torture
   1. the act of tormenting
   2. the state or condition of those tormented

From Strongs 928 -

Strong's Number: 928 - Basanizo

Definition

1. to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2. to question by applying torture
3. to torture
4. to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
5. to be harassed, distressed
   1. of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind

King James Word Usage - Total: 12
torment 8, pain 1, toss 1, vex 1, toil 1

In the context of Revelation 14:9-11, it is clear that this term does not refer to testing metals.

The context speaks of those being tormented. the state or condition of those tormented.

to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment

to be harassed, distressed

Again, I ask you.

Where in these verse does there indicate a cease to the torment?
He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."


JLB

 

[dadof10]

Still no rebuttal? Did you miss where the passage you quoted didn't say that it referred to everyone but only 3 people? If they are people, which you haven't proven?

I didn't think I had to.

"And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image."

Did you miss the mountain of scripture that I posted proving that the wages of sin really is death? Did you even read it? They are simply not people. The devil is not human, and the false prophet represents the false religious system.

How can a religious system be captured? How can a religious system "do signs"? Can a religious system be thrown into hell and tormented? Your interpretation is laughable. The facts are that Scripture shows two people, the Beast and the false prophet, who are being eternally tormented. Here is what you wrote to JLB.

"If you showed me even one verse that backs up your doctrine, I would accept it."

"and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:10)

Well, there you go.

 

[TimothyW]

[Deleted by staff]

I didn't think I had to.

"And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image."



How can a religious system be captured? How can a religious system "do signs"? Can a religious system be thrown into hell and tormented? Your interpretation is laughable. The facts are that Scripture shows two people, the Beast and the false prophet, who are being eternally tormented. Here is what you wrote to JLB.

"If you showed me even one verse that backs up your doctrine, I would accept it."

"and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:10)

Well, there you go.

Thank you, now I know that the DEVIL, THE BEAST with seven heads and ten horns who is in no way symbolic, and the FALSE PROPHET will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

As for the rest of us, the Bible says "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Did you forget that I asked for a verse that said "the wicked will go to Hell when they die where they will live forever in torment"? The verse you gave does not support that doctrine.

Torment Strong's Number: 929 - Basanismos

Definition

1. to torture, a testing by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2. torment, torture
   1. the act of tormenting
   2. the state or condition of those tormented

From Strongs 928 -

Strong's Number: 928 - Basanizo

Definition

1. to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2. to question by applying torture
3. to torture
4. to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
5. to be harassed, distressed
   1. of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind

King James Word Usage - Total: 12
torment 8, pain 1, toss 1, vex 1, toil 1

In the context of Revelation 14:9-11, it is clear that this term does not refer to testing metals.

The context speaks of those being tormented. the state or condition of those tormented.

to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment

to be harassed, distressed

Again, I ask you.

Where in these verse does there indicate a cease to the torment?
He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

JLB

You are having trouble understanding Basanizo, so your question is inappropriate. The result of the testing (Basanizo) determines whether a person receives eternal life or goes to their second death.

Jesus said that the body and soul would be destroyed in Gehenna. Where in Matthew 10:28 does Jesus indicate that the Body or the Soul will not be destroyed in Gehenna?

 

[JLB]

I think your point is, "we like our religion just the way it is and don't appreciate you rocking the boat on the topic of Hell, so let's not talk about this".

Is that correct?

Thank you, now I know that the DEVIL, THE BEAST with seven heads and ten horns who is in no way symbolic, and the FALSE PROPHET will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

As for the rest of us, the Bible says "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Did you forget that I asked for a verse that said "the wicked will go to Hell when they die where they will live forever in torment"? The verse you gave does not support that doctrine.

You are having trouble understanding Basanizo, so your question is inappropriate. The result of the testing (Basanizo) determines whether a person receives eternal life or goes to their second death.

Jesus said that the body and soul would be destroyed in Gehenna. Where in Matthew 10:28 does Jesus indicate that the Body or the Soul will not be destroyed in Gehenna?

Ok.

How long will these people who are being "tested", by being thrown into the lake of fire.

Since now you have introduced the idea of a testing period, and changed your reasoning from one that says, they are instantly destroyed and killed, to one of "testing", then please explain to us in this thread, just how long this period of testing last's from the very scripture that states they are tested.

The result of the testing (Basanizo) determines whether a person receives eternal life or goes to their second death.

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Revelation 14:10-11

It seems from this scripture that:

The one who receives the mark will be "tested" with fire and brimstone.
The one who receives the mark, the smoke of their "testing" ascends forever and ever.
How long does this scripture tells us the "testing" period will last, to determine whether a person receives eternal life.

I always thought that was determined while a person was living, whether they accepted Jesus Christ as Lord?

This all seems new to me.

Please explain.


Thanks JLB

 

[TimothyW]

It seems obvious to me that the testing will take place on the Day of Judgment, just as the Bible says.

I need to say something else. I am not asking ANYONE to change their beliefs. We are just discussing what the Bible says. The Bible says that Jesus will return and He will judge the world on that day. The Bible says that everyone will be resurrected on that day. The Bible says that some will perish and some will have eternal life. A person's set of beliefs do not merely consist of "What the Bible Says", other factors are always included. That's not a bad thing, it's good. Consider everything and believe the things you believe are true.

 

[dadof10]

[Deleted by staff]

Thank you, now I know that the DEVIL, THE BEAST with seven heads and ten horns who is in no way symbolic, and the FALSE PROPHET will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

You're welcome. Now we know there is a biblical example of two persons who are being tormented eternally. Your entire argument revolves around the false premise that "eternal" ONLY pertains to the saved. What these two examples show, is that it pertains to the damned as well.

As for the rest of us, the Bible says "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Did you forget that I asked for a verse that said "the wicked will go to Hell when they die where they will live forever in torment"? The verse you gave does not support that doctrine.

Yes it does. Because the words you choose to accept aren't in Scripture, doesn't mean the doctrine is not taught in another way. Again, the Beast and the false prophet are obviously human beings and they are obviously being eternally tormented. Why is this not enough for you?

 

[JLB]

It seems obvious to me that the testing will take place on the Day of Judgment, just as the Bible says.

I need to say something else. I am not asking ANYONE to change their beliefs. We are just discussing what the Bible says. The Bible says that Jesus will return and He will judge the world on that day. The Bible says that everyone will be resurrected on that day. The Bible says that some will perish and some will have eternal life. A person's set of beliefs do not merely consist of "What the Bible Says", other factors are always included. That's not a bad thing, it's good. Consider everything and believe the things you believe are true.

Ok Brother. You have a free will to believe the things that you believe are true.

I would certainly counsel you to weigh things that you think are true against what the scriptures say.

God Bless you.


JLB

 

[TimothyW]

You're welcome. Now we know there is a biblical example of two persons who are being tormented eternally. Your entire argument revolves around the false premise that "eternal" ONLY pertains to the saved. What these two examples show, is that it pertains to the damned as well.



Yes it does. Because the words you choose to accept aren't in Scripture, doesn't mean the doctrine is not taught in another way. Again, the Beast and the false prophet are obviously human beings and they are obviously being eternally tormented. Why is this not enough for you?

Because of the weight of all of the scripture that says that the penalty for sin is death, destruction, perishing, etc etc etc.
I am not willing to toss 99.99% of the Bible in the dumpster just so that I can accept your interpretation of ONE verse of Scripture contained in a Book that I KNOW contains ALOT of symbolism.
What I am saying is directly taught in scripture. The penalty for sin is death. Romans 6:23, Whoever believes will not PERISH, John 3:16. The soul who sins shall die, Ezekiel 18:4. I could go on and on. In fact, I have. Check the massive scripture post earlier in this thread.

 

[TimothyW]

Ok Brother. You have a free will to believe the things that you believe are true.

I would certainly counsel you to weigh things that you think are true against what the scriptures say.

God Bless you.


JLB

Thank you for the blessing. May God bless you as well. He has blessed me beyond anything I could have hoped for and I'm thankful to Him for that.

I have, and I am continuing to weigh what I believe is true against what the scriptures say, and this is what has led me to discard the doctrine of eternal conscious torment, a doctrine I once held. I decided to check all of my beliefs against what the Bible actually says, and the doctrine of ECT falls drastically short of having scriptural support. Some doctrines I once held, I still hold on to since they have scriptural support, for example - The Divinity of Christ. But I test every doctrine against what the Bible says. I don't want to hold an untested doctrine, even if it is a cherished doctrine. I'm not afraid to test everything, and the doctrines that are true are stronger because they have been tested and held fast.

 

[JLB]

Because of the weight of all of the scripture that says that the penalty for sin is death, destruction, perishing, etc etc etc.
I am not willing to toss 99.99% of the Bible in the dumpster just so that I can accept your interpretation of ONE verse of Scripture contained in a Book that I KNOW contains ALOT of symbolism.
What I am saying is directly taught in scripture. The penalty for sin is death. Romans 6:23, Whoever believes will not PERISH, John 3:16. The soul who sins shall die, Ezekiel 18:4. I could go on and on. In fact, I have. Check the massive scripture post earlier in this thread.

Brother, I know the wages of sin is death.

That is not what we are debating. We are debating the fact that when a person dies, their existence does not cease.

There is the first death and there is the second death.

At the first death, you are still existing, otherwise there would be no such thing as the second death.

Likewise the second death is not of the flesh but of the soul.

Look at the account of Abraham and the rich man and Lazarus.

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores , 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass , that the beggar died , and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died , and was buried ; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said , Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said , Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted , and thou art tormented . 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed : so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot ; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said , I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said , Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent . 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded , though one rose from the dead. Luke 16:19-31


Tormented Strong's Number: 3600 Odunao

Definition

1. to cause intense pain
2. to be in anguish, be tormented
3. to torment or distress one's self

JLB

 

[JLB]

Thank you for the blessing. May God bless you as well. He has blessed me beyond anything I could have hoped for and I'm thankful to Him for that.

I have, and I am continuing to weigh what I believe is true against what the scriptures say, and this is what has led me to discard the doctrine of eternal conscious torment, a doctrine I once held. I decided to check all of my beliefs against what the Bible actually says, and the doctrine of ECT falls drastically short of having scriptural support. Some doctrines I once held, I still hold on to since they have scriptural support, for example - The Divinity of Christ. But I test every doctrine against what the Bible says. I don't want to hold an untested doctrine, even if it is a cherished doctrine. I'm not afraid to test everything, and the doctrines that are true are stronger because they have been tested and held fast.

I don't agree with your conclusion in this matter.

But you have a great attitude towards God and His word.

I know He will bless you and keep you.


JLB

 

[dadof10]

Because of the weight of all of the scripture that says that the penalty for sin is death, destruction, perishing, etc etc etc.
I am not willing to toss 99.99% of the Bible in the dumpster just so that I can accept your interpretation of ONE verse of Scripture contained in a Book that I KNOW contains ALOT of symbolism.
What I am saying is directly taught in scripture. The penalty for sin is death. Romans 6:23, Whoever believes will not PERISH, John 3:16. The soul who sins shall die, Ezekiel 18:4. I could go on and on. In fact, I have. Check the massive scripture post earlier in this thread.

Within the "massive Scripture" you posted, there are only a few verses that truly seem to back up your view, The others, not so much. [Edited by staff] There have been numerous refutations of YOUR INTERPRETATION of the words mentioned above from others. There have been numerous verses which others have posted that seem to teach eternal punishment exists. Allen posted a biblical EXAMPLE of humans who are being eternally punished. You just ignore all this and keep parroting "death", "perishing", etc.

If there are two seemingly contradictory views within Scripture the proper tack is to reconcile them, not pick a side and ignore all the evidence to the contrary.