Eternal life being tormented in Hell or Death, What is the wages of sin?

[TimothyW]

What? I agree with the scripture that says exactly the same thing I am saying. I don't know what you are getting at. Revelation 20:14 doesn't even begin to say what you are claiming it says. If you were correct, then Revelation 20:14 would have said "The lake of fire means that the wicked are tormented alive forever in it". But it doesn't say that. It says what I am saying, that the lake of fire is the second death. This is not a coincidence, since I got my doctrine from reading the Bible and believing what it says.

 

[JLB]

I did.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. (NIV)

Being cast into the lake of fire is the second death, just as anyone would expect being tossed into a burning fiery lake of fire would be. That'll kill a person dead. And "dead" does not mean "alive forever".
Aside from this, Revelation 20:14 specifically says that the lake of fire is the second death. I don't know why you are resisting the belief that the lake of fire really is the second death. Especially since this lines up perfectly with Romans 6:23 which says "For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal LIFE in Christ Jesus our lord." AND the lake of fire being the second death ALSO agrees with John 3:16 which says specifically that the only two options are to PERISH or have ETERNAL LIFE.

The scriptures teach us a persons spirit, whether the devil, the false prophet, or anyone whose name is not found in the book of life, is cast into the lake of fire and is tormented.

A spirit being is tormented in the lake of fire.

By saying tormented, it is clear that the spirit being continues to exist on beyond what natural flesh and bone exists.

Do you agree with the scripture when is says ... anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Yes you agree.

If there is eternal life, then it is reasonable from these scriptures that there is in fact eternal death.

The scriptures are clear. Torment in the lake of fire is the result of worshiping the beast and taking his mark.

as it is written -

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."


JLB

 

[TimothyW]

The scriptures teach us a persons spirit, whether the devil, the false prophet, or anyone whose name is not found in the book of life, is cast into the lake of fire and is tormented.

A spirit being is tormented in the lake of fire.

By saying tormented, it is clear that the spirit being continues to exist on beyond what natural flesh and bone exists.

Do you agree with the scripture when is says ... anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Yes you agree.

If there is eternal life, then it is reasonable from these scriptures that there is in fact eternal death.

The scriptures are clear. Torment in the lake of fire is the result of worshiping the beast and taking his mark.

as it is written -

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."


JLB

I agree that Revelation says "Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."
I do not agree with you that anyone who is thrown into the lake of fire will have eternal life in the fire being burned alive forever. The Bible simply does not say that. Okay?
I agree that there is eternal life for those who are in Christ, they will live forever. There is no eternal life outside of Christ. Those who reject Christ will not have eternal life. I agree that there is eternal death for those who reject Christ. I do not agree with you that eternal death is actually eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever. It can't be, since it is DEATH, not LIFE.

And I agree that the Book of Revelation says that the SMOKE of their Torment ascends forever, but I do not agree that this says that their torment continues on forever, SINCE IT DOESN'T SAY THAT!!!

You ADMIT that Revelation 20:14 says that the lake of fire is the second death. I am saying that the lake of fire is the second death, not eternal conscious torment, just as the Bible says.

All you have to do to get me to believe that the wicked will go to Hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever after they are dead is post the Bible verse that says this.
When you post verse after verse that agrees with what I am saying, you are not convincing me to abandon my belief and go with your belief instead. I believe what the Bible says. I do not believe what you are saying.
All you have to do to get me to believe that the wicked will go to Hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever after they are dead is post the Bible verse that says this.
DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

 

[JLB]

I agree that Revelation says "Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."
I do not agree with you that anyone who is thrown into the lake of fire will have eternal life in the fire being burned alive forever. The Bible simply does not say that. Okay?
I agree that there is eternal life for those who are in Christ, they will live forever. There is no eternal life outside of Christ. Those who reject Christ will not have eternal life. I agree that there is eternal death for those who reject Christ. I do not agree with you that eternal death is actually eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever. It can't be, since it is DEATH, not LIFE.

And I agree that the Book of Revelation says that the SMOKE of their Torment ascends forever, but I do not agree that this says that their torment continues on forever, SINCE IT DOESN'T SAY THAT!!!
[/quote/]

Is their torment that creates the smoke physical or spiritual?

 

[gr8grace]

What? I agree with the scripture that says exactly the same thing I am saying. I don't know what you are getting at. Revelation 20:14 doesn't even begin to say what you are claiming it says. If you were correct, then Revelation 20:14 would have said "The lake of fire means that the wicked are tormented alive forever in it". But it doesn't say that. It says what I am saying, that the lake of fire is the second death. This is not a coincidence, since I got my doctrine from reading the Bible and believing what it says.

What do you make of this word in the original language in rev 20:14?

eimi 1510 present active indicative 3s ---verb to be/endure 18.....Most usage is "to Exist"

Rev 20:14~~Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death(eimi,to be,to endure,to exist), the lake of fire.

 

[chessman]

What do you make of this word in the original language in rev 20:14?

eimi 1510 present active indicative 3s ---verb to be/endure 18.....Most usage is "to Exist"

Rev 20:14~~Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death(eimi,to be,to endure,to exist), the lake of fire.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but rather just asking the question; Where did you get that the Greek is eimi in Rev 20:14's "death"? I show it as:
thanatos: death
Original Word: θάνατος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: thanatos
Phonetic Spelling: (than'-at-os)
Short Definition: death
Definition: death, physical or spiritual.

http://biblesuite.com/greek/2288.htm

I show no occurrence of eimi in Rev 20:14

 

[gr8grace]

I'm not saying you are wrong, but rather just asking the question; Where did you get that the Greek is eimi in Rev 20:14's "death"? I show it as:
thanatos: death
Original Word: θάνατος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: thanatos
Phonetic Spelling: (than'-at-os)
Short Definition: death
Definition: death, physical or spiritual.

http://biblesuite.com/greek/2288.htm

I show no occurrence of eimi in Rev 20:14

Sorry Chessman I see how it looks in my post.

Eimi is a separate word from thanatos. I tried to post the whole verse parsed out but it comes up a complete mess!

Greek ConC/Wrd==**Parsing ============ ==== Trans. of REV 20: 14 T/ord
kai 2532 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- and 1
o 3588 mas artl nom s ------- the 2
qavatos 2288 mas ---- nom s noun--- death 3
kai 2532 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- and 4
o 3588 mas artl nom s ------- the 5
adns 0086 mas ---- nom s noun--- hades 6
ballw 0906 aor pas ind 3p ---verb to cast 7
eis 1519 ---- ---- acc -- prep--- unto 8
o 3588 fem artl acc s ------- the 9
limvn 3041 fem ---- acc s noun--- lake 10
o 3588 neu artl gen s ------- the 11
pur 4442 neu ---- gen s noun--- fire 12
outos 3778 mas ---- nom s pronoun this 13
o 3588 mas artl nom s ------- the 14
qavatos 2288 mas ---- nom s noun--- death 15
o 3588 mas artl nom s ------- the 16
deuteros 1208 mas adj nom s ------- second 17
eimi 1510 pres act ind 3s ---verb to be/endure 18...commonly used as "exist"
o 3588 fem artl nom s ------- the 19
limvn 3041 fem ---- nom s noun--- lake 20
o 3588 neu artl gen s ------- the 21
pur 4442 neu ---- gen s noun--- fire 22

This comes from:
*26th ed. Nestles, Allen Text, American Bible Society; New York
**Gramcord Institute, 2218 NE Brookview Dr,; Vancouver WA 98686

 

[chessman]

Sorry Chessman I see how it looks in my post.

Eimi is a separate word from thanatos. I tried to post the whole verse parsed out but it comes up a complete mess!

I see. I thought it was something like that. thanks for clarifying.

 

[chessman]

The Devil is a spirit being, with no physical body.

Of course he is. We know this from all the other clear Scriptures that say just that very thing (1 Kings 22:22, 1 Sam 16:14, Mat 12:24, John 13:27, Acts 5:3, Eph 2:2, etc.).

However, according to John’s vision alone, you wouldn’t really know that the Devil is spirit, would you? In John’s vision of the future the Devil was a dragon and a serpent and yes thrown into a Lake of Fire (with smoke and all).

However, John himself just comes right out and tells us that the dragon/serpent in his vision in reality represented the Devil/Satan. That is exactly what Rev 20:2 means (Rev20:2). Nobody thinks John is saying that Satan will literally become a dragon in the future.

Revelation 20:2 (ESV) 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,…​

If it weren’t for the fact that John actually parenthetically tells us what these animals represented in his vision (and this had been reliably kept as Scripture for all these years), I’m sure there would be all kinds of wild speculation about which president this “dragon” represented (like helicopters are imagined in Rev). But the point is, nobody with any real aim for the truth thinks the dragon and the serpent John described earlier in his vision is anything other than the Devil himself (Satan of old) as talked about elsewhere in Scripture. So, my point is John clarifies his vision for us. No secret interpretation needed (at least for who the dragon is).

So yes, he’s a spirit in real life. But is the “Lake of Fire” a body of water with flames coming out of it literally? Of course not. Lake of Fire = the second death. Plain and simple. John clarifies this point for us, just like he did with the dragon.

Is it literally a puddle of water somewhere in space filled with flames/fire, or in the inner core of the Earth, or rather is it just like John says it is? He saw it in his vision as some kind of Lake of Fire and even saw the Dragon being thrown into it, sure. Yet, John clarifies for us just exactly what the “Lake of Fire” represented within his vision. Lake of Fire = Second death

Revelation 20:14b (ESV) This is the second death, the lake of fire.​

This statement he is making, is not his vision, it’s his interpretation and clarification of the vision. It’s actually very clarifying to this whole book. It clarifies how John’s vision lines up perfectly and harmoniously (just like it had the same Author) with all the other verses like # 53 from Timothy W’s list (that you erroneously accused him of not producing, yet he clearly has listed them in two long posts):

2 Cor 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.​

Since Paul was perfectly familiar with (and knowing full well he was about to experience “physical death”, it’s quite obvious that he means something other than just simply physical death. At least spiritual death or more likely BOTH as second physical death and a final, eternal, everlasting spiritual death as well. We all experience that 1st physical death, even Jesus, so that cannot be what he meant to contrast here between the lost and the saved final fate.

 

[TimothyW]

What do you make of this word in the original language in rev 20:14?

eimi 1510 present active indicative 3s ---verb to be/endure 18.....Most usage is "to Exist"

Rev 20:14~~Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death(eimi,to be,to endure,to exist), the lake of fire.

Here is Revelation 20:14 in the original Greek, it doesn't say eimi, it doesn't say "to endure, to exist".
καὶ ὁ θάνατος καὶ ὁ Ἅιδης ἐβλήθησαν εἰς τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρός. οὗτος ὁ θάνατος ὁ δεύτερός ἐστιν, ἡ λίμνη τοῦ πυρός.
Here is a literal translation:
And the death and the Hades are-thrown into the lake the fire. This the death the second is, the lake the fire.
In other words, the regular translations are correct.

 

[TimothyW]

Is their torment that creates the smoke physical or spiritual?

It is βασανισμοῦ, testing. This refers to the final judgment. When they are destroyed as a result of this testing or judgment, the smoke of that that destruction will rise forever. This is a common Hebraism, used in the Old Testament to refer to complete destruction. As in, "The smoke of Edom's destruction rises forever".

 

[chessman]

, the smoke of that that destruction will rise forever. This is a common Hebraism, used in the Old Testament to refer to complete destruction. As in, "The smoke of Edom's destruction rises forever".

"Holy smoke", man. Are you sure you're not just "blowing smoke". You mean Eternal Concise Torment teaching just "went up in smoke"?

 

[gr8grace]

Here is Revelation 20:14 in the original Greek, it doesn't say eimi, it doesn't say "to endure, to exist".

Here is Revelation 20:14 in the original Greek, it doesn't say eimi, it doesn't say "to endure, to exist".
καὶ ὁ θάνατος καὶ ὁ Ἅιδης ἐβλήθησαν εἰς τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρός. οὗτος ὁ θάνατος ὁ δεύτερός ἐστιν, ἡ λίμνη τοῦ πυρός.
Here is a literal translation:
And the death and the Hades are-thrown into the lake the fire. This the death the second is, the lake the fire.
In other words, the regular translations are correct.

Here is a literal translation:
And the death and the Hades are-thrown into the lake the fire. This the death the second is, the lake the fire.
In other words, the regular translations are correct.

[/quote]

Here is Revelation 20:14 in the original Greek, it doesn't say eimi, it doesn't say "to endure, to exist".
καὶ ὁ θάνατος καὶ ὁ Ἅιδης ἐβλήθησαν εἰς τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρός. οὗτος ὁ θάνατος ὁ δεύτερός ἐστιν, ἡ λίμνη τοῦ πυρός.
Here is a literal translation:
And the death and the Hades are-thrown into the lake the fire. This the death the second is, the lake the fire.
In other words, the regular translations are correct.

You must of overlooked it, because its even in the Greek you posted.......ἐστιν.

and I can even give you 2 more quick references other than the one already posted if you would like, that verify that you do have the correct Greek posted. Just the wrong literal translation of rev 20:14

Some will translate ἐστιν as esti #2076 in the concordance but it is still indicative of Eimi #1510....

1. to be, to exist, to happen, to be present.

 

[chessman]

1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be") – am, is. 1510(eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey "straight-forward" being (existence, i.e. without explicit limits).

1510 /eimí ("is, am") – in the present tense, indicative mood – can be time-inclusive ("omnitemporal," like the Hebrew imperfect tense). Only the context indicates whether the present tense also has "timeless" implications. For example, 1510 (eimí) is aptly used in Christ's great "I am" (ego eimi . . . ) that also include His eternality (self-existent life) as our life, bread, light," etc. See Jn 7:34, 8:58, etc.

In other words, Jesus IS the I AM
Similarly, the Lake of Fire is the second death.

 

[JLB]

Of course he is. We know this from all the other clear Scriptures that say just that very thing (1 Kings 22:22, 1 Sam 16:14, Mat 12:24, John 13:27, Acts 5:3, Eph 2:2, etc.).

However, according to John’s vision alone, you wouldn’t really know that the Devil is spirit, would you? In John’s vision of the future the Devil was a dragon and a serpent and yes thrown into a Lake of Fire (with smoke and all).

However, John himself just comes right out and tells us that the dragon/serpent in his vision in reality represented the Devil/Satan. That is exactly what Rev 20:2 means (Rev20:2). Nobody thinks John is saying that Satan will literally become a dragon in the future.

Revelation 20:2 (ESV) 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,…​

If it weren’t for the fact that John actually parenthetically tells us what these animals represented in his vision (and this had been reliably kept as Scripture for all these years), I’m sure there would be all kinds of wild speculation about which president this “dragon” represented (like helicopters are imagined in Rev). But the point is, nobody with any real aim for the truth thinks the dragon and the serpent John described earlier in his vision is anything other than the Devil himself (Satan of old) as talked about elsewhere in Scripture. So, my point is John clarifies his vision for us. No secret interpretation needed (at least for who the dragon is).

So yes, he’s a spirit in real life. But is the “Lake of Fire” a body of water with flames coming out of it literally? Of course not. Lake of Fire = the second death. Plain and simple. John clarifies this point for us, just like he did with the dragon.

Is it literally a puddle of water somewhere in space filled with flames/fire, or in the inner core of the Earth, or rather is it just like John says it is? He saw it in his vision as some kind of Lake of Fire and even saw the Dragon being thrown into it, sure. Yet, John clarifies for us just exactly what the “Lake of Fire” represented within his vision. Lake of Fire = Second death

Revelation 20:14b (ESV) This is the second death, the lake of fire.​

This statement he is making, is not his vision, it’s his interpretation and clarification of the vision. It’s actually very clarifying to this whole book. It clarifies how John’s vision lines up perfectly and harmoniously (just like it had the same Author) with all the other verses like # 53 from Timothy W’s list (that you erroneously accused him of not producing, yet he clearly has listed them in two long posts):

2 Cor 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.​

Since Paul was perfectly familiar with (and knowing full well he was about to experience “physical death”, it’s quite obvious that he means something other than just simply physical death. At least spiritual death or more likely BOTH as second physical death and a final, eternal, everlasting spiritual death as well. We all experience that 1st physical death, even Jesus, so that cannot be what he meant to contrast here between the lost and the saved final fate.

Sorry Bro.

No puddle of water to it.

Lake as in molten fire that spews out of the earth from time to time, is what is being presented.

A spirit being being tormented by being cast into this lake of fire, is what the bible teaches us.

John explains this to us.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

... he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. parabolic language

...He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. parabolic language explained

Tormented with fire and brimstone is in fact the literal result of worshiping the beast and receiving his mark.


JLB

 

[TimothyW]

All you have to do to get me to believe that the wicked will go to Hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever after they are dead is post the Bible verse that says this.

Why is this concept so difficult? Either the Bible says the wicked will go to Hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever while they are dead or it doesn't.
If the Bible says this, it should be an easy thing to point it out. If the Bible doesn't say this, then there is no reason to believe it.

Don't post a verse that doesn't say that the wicked go to Hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever while they are dead and then try to tell me that the verse means that. The technical term for that is "selling phony bologna".

 

[jeff77]

To experience the 2nd death one would have to still exist in some way from the 1st death. So could someone still exist in some way after the 2nd death?

 

[TimothyW]

To experience the 2nd death one would have to still exist in some way from the 1st death. So could someone still exist in some way after the 2nd death?

There is resurrection after the first death. There is no resurrection from the second death.

 

[JLB]

There is resurrection after the first death. There is no resurrection from the second death.

Is their torment that creates the smoke physical or spiritual?

 

[TimothyW]

Is their torment that creates the smoke physical or spiritual?

Is the wages of sin death? What does your Bible say?
Is "death" the same thing as "eternal life"?
Is "eternal life" the same thing as "death"/

I've already explained that the word that is translated "torment" is βασανισμοῦ and the primary meaning of βασανισμοῦ is testing. This testing is the final judgment.
This testing will be physical, since the people who are resurrected for judgment will be alive again. Your false dichotomy is not helping you. A person can be both physical and spiritual.
The testing determines the punishment or reward, either eternal life or the second death. Those who receive eternal life will have physical eternal life. They are also spiritual. Those who go to their second death will physically die, since that is what death means. They will be physically dead. They will also be "spiritually dead", since the dead have no spirit. The Greek word for "spirit" and "breath" are the same word, "pneumos".

According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment.
Please open your Bible and turn to Romans 6:23
Do you see where it says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"?

I'm not trying to trick you, that is what the Bible says. The Bible does not say that the wicked will go to Hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever while they are dead.
If the Bible did say that, you would have posted the verse by now. You can't, because the Bible doesn't say that. I believe the Bible. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. The Bible does not say that the wages of sin is eternal conscious torture in Hell. You are simply in error, and you can't convince me to join you in your error. Satan says "Surely you will never die". I don't agree with Satan.