Eternal Security of the Believer !

[TruthSeeker2012]

TruthSeeker2012

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


Are the above verses the true Word of God? Yes or no

Do yo say you have no sin? Yes or No

Yes, the verses above are the true Word of God, but I do not believe your interpretation of them is correct.

In reality I have sin and am a sinner, but LEGALLY, from God's perspective and viewpoint, I am clothed with Jesus' sinless perfection and stand as if I HAD NEVER SINNED (Justified).

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

I am not saying a sinning person will inherit kingdom of God. I am saying struggle of fleeing from sins have success and failure and this birth pain will eventually lead to a new creation in Christ as a born again or born in Spirit. It is very true that people who are born of God NEVER sins and he that sins is of the devil. Being born again is not a switch which happens in a day or just by believing in Christ. It could even happen in several decades, but it is a work of God not man. Every time I fail in the struggle to flee my sins to be born again, God will provide His grace and help me out through His Spirit in the process of sanctification.

So, what happens if any person who is in the process of being born again, like me dies?

As in 1John 1:9, I repent and confess my sins and I ask forgiveness. So, God will cleanse me from all unrighteousness. Further, I will forgive anyone who had done anything against me as in Luke 6:37. Finally, as in John 3:15, I will have eternal life because I believe in Him and He is my only hope. So, I am justified by grace.

Struggling in sin Vs rejecting God
Struggling in sin and failing in it is very different from rejecting God and sinning. The one who struggles believes in God and calls for His help to battle against his flesh by placing his hope on Christ. The one rejects does not believe in God and has no hope.

(John 6:37) "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

If a person who is struggling in sin rejects God, then he too has no hope and will not inherit eternal life.

1. I am a sinner Felix, yet I have faith in Jesus as my Lord and Saviour. Do you believe I am LOST until a day in the future if I can become perfectly sinless?

In other words, can a sinner be SAVED TODAY, even though they continue to be a sinner? Yes or No?

2. Are you without sin? Yes or No?

Ecclesiastes 7:20 Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

3. How long does it take for a person to be BORN AGAIN?

4. Your theology sounds more like Eastern or Indian theology and not based on Scripture!

 

[felix]

1. I am a sinner Felix, yet I have faith in Jesus as my Lord and Saviour. Do you believe I am LOST until a day in the future if I can become perfectly sinless?

In other words, can a sinner be SAVED TODAY, even though they continue to be a sinner? Yes or No?

2. Are you without sin? Yes or No?

Ecclesiastes 7:20 Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

3. How long does it take for a person to be BORN AGAIN?

4. Your theology sounds more like Eastern or Indian theology and not based on Scripture!

The question about Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved is not about sinning alone but losing faith in Christ and rejecting God after becoming partakers of Holy Spirit.

You are truly not saved if Christ cannot find any good fruit in you.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

The question about Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved is not about sinning alone but losing faith in Christ and rejecting God after becoming partakers of Holy Spirit.

You are truly not saved if Christ cannot find any good fruit in you.

Is it IMPOSSIBLE for a born again Christian to be SAVED NOW AND ALWAYS SAVED and have ETERNAL SECURITY? Yes or No?

Secondly, you have completely misunderstood Scripture and you have it BACKWARDS!!! Read John 15:1-5, it teaches that it's JESUS producing the FRUIT THROUGH US and without JESUS WE CAN DO NOTHING... so you have it BACKWARDS... because if you are saved Jesus produces fruit IN and THROUGH YOU, but you cannot produce genuine fruit unless Jesus is ALREADY in your heart!

According to you, a Christian must produce fruit on their OWN before Jesus can think you are worthy to be saved and to remain saved. You have it completely BACKWARDS and your comments reveal your lack of biblical understanding.

And in addition, the FRUIT IS LOVE. Read Gal 5, notice it's SINGULAR, not PLURAL! And GOD IS LOVE, so once God comes into your heart you have LOVE IN YOUR HEART! Felix, you have misunderstood the Scripture BACKWARDS!

 

[Saltwater]

Is it IMPOSSIBLE for a born again Christian to be SAVED NOW AND ALWAYS SAVED and have ETERNAL SECURITY? Yes or No?

Secondly, you have completely misunderstood Scripture and you have it BACKWARDS!!! Read John 15:1-5, it teaches that it's JESUS producing the FRUIT THROUGH US and without JESUS WE CAN DO NOTHING... so you have it BACKWARDS... because if you are saved Jesus produces fruit IN and THROUGH YOU, but you cannot produce genuine fruit unless Jesus is ALREADY in your heart!

According to you, a Christian must produce fruit on their OWN before Jesus can think you are worthy to be saved and to remain saved. You have it completely BACKWARDS and your comments reveal your lack of biblical understanding.

And in addition, the FRUIT IS LOVE. Read Gal 5, notice it's SINGULAR, not PLURAL! And GOD IS LOVE, so once God comes into your heart you have LOVE IN YOUR HEART! Felix, you have misunderstood the Scripture BACKWARDS!

Hi there TruthSeeker2012,

How about we include v6 of John15 as well so we can get the full picture?

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Comments re vs 1 & 6:looks like the believer can do something that stops the fruit appearing. In order to produce even more fruit some pruning of the believer is carried out (v2).

The believer not producing fruit (via Jesus presence v5) is removed from the vine v1&2 = loss of salvation? - per v6 thrown into the fire & burned (lake of fire/fiery furnace imagery?)

 

[felix]

Is it IMPOSSIBLE for a born again Christian to be SAVED NOW AND ALWAYS SAVED and have ETERNAL SECURITY? Yes or No?

Secondly, you have completely misunderstood Scripture and you have it BACKWARDS!!! Read John 15:1-5, it teaches that it's JESUS producing the FRUIT THROUGH US and without JESUS WE CAN DO NOTHING... so you have it BACKWARDS... because if you are saved Jesus produces fruit IN and THROUGH YOU, but you cannot produce genuine fruit unless Jesus is ALREADY in your heart!

According to you, a Christian must produce fruit on their OWN before Jesus can think you are worthy to be saved and to remain saved. You have it completely BACKWARDS and your comments reveal your lack of biblical understanding.

And in addition, the FRUIT IS LOVE. Read Gal 5, notice it's SINGULAR, not PLURAL! And GOD IS LOVE, so once God comes into your heart you have LOVE IN YOUR HEART! Felix, you have misunderstood the Scripture BACKWARDS!

(Rev 22:12) " And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward [is] with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

Can you please explain the Scripture verse:

(Heb 6:4-8) For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put [Him] to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, [it is] rejected and near to being cursed, whose end [is] to be burned.

You are saved through faith and not of works. However, faith without works is dead. Did you understand what it means? it means, we are saved by grace through faith not works of the law. Faith without works (not producing good fruits of the spirit), is dead.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

..The believer not producing fruit (via Jesus presence v5) is removed from the vine v1&2 = loss of salvation? - per v6 thrown into the fire & burned (lake of fire/fiery furnace imagery?)

And what is the FRUIT? Well let's have a look as the Bible tells us in Galatians 5:22. Notice the fruit is LOVE, it's SINGULAR and NOT PLURAL...so the FRUIT IS LOVE AND LOVE ALONE! And in John 13:35, Jesus said we can know His disciples by their LOVE!

SO there you have it..... LOVE is the FRUIT and many religious legalistic people have NO LOVE, only RULES AND REGULATIONS AND DEMANDS!

 

[felix]

And what is the FRUIT? Well let's have a look as the Bible tells us in Galatians 5:22. Notice the fruit is LOVE, it's SINGULAR and NOT PLURAL...so the FRUIT IS LOVE AND LOVE ALONE! And in John 13:35, Jesus said we can know His disciples by their LOVE!

SO there you have it..... LOVE is the FRUIT and many religious legalistic people have NO LOVE, only RULES AND REGULATIONS AND DEMANDS!

(Gal 5:22-23) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

(Rev 22:12) " And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward [is] with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

Can you please explain the Scripture verse:

(Heb 6:4-8) For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put [Him] to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, [it is] rejected and near to being cursed, whose end [is] to be burned.

You are saved through faith and not of works. However, faith without works is dead. Did you understand what it means? it means, we are saved by grace through faith not works of the law. Faith without works (not producing good fruits of the spirit), is dead.

1. I noticed you ran and hid from my question..why? Too frightened to answer it?

Is it IMPOSSIBLE for a born again Christian to be SAVED NOW AND ALWAYS SAVED and have ETERNAL SECURITY? Yes or No?

2. Can a person be saved by FAITH + GRACE ALONE AND NO WORKS? Yes or No?

3. The FRUIT IS LOVE, see Gal 5:22.

4. NOTICE carefully in Rev 22:12, it says WORK, not WORKS! Do you know WHY Felix? Any ideas? And did you know the Bible explains what that WORK is. Did you know that? Any ideas?

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

(Gal 5:22-23) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

You have failed to interpret the verse correctly!! You indicated that it's FRUITS but it's not, it's FRUIT! Go into the Koine Greek if you have to, yet all English translations also say the same thing.. the FRUIT IS LOVE! SINGULAR, NOT PLURAL!

I am surprised you didn't know this Felix seeing you are infallible in Scripture as you claim! Those things are an EXTENSION of LOVE, but the FRUIT IS LOVE!!! Notice it doesn't say FRUITS, it says FRUIT!

I am really surprised you had never understood this Felix.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

(Rev 22:12) " And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward [is] with Me, to give to every one according to his work...

Felix, you claimed to have PERFECT interpretation of all Scripture, yet you failed to understand and interpret Rev 22:12. I must confess that is very surprising.

There is a very false belief that Rev 22:12 refers to personal "WORKS". Well, this is false! It never says: "reward every man according to his works."

IT SAYS: "reward every man according to his work".

Notice its SINGULAR, not PLURAL. It says WORK, not WORKS!

Who was the author of Revelation? John. Lets ask John what he understands by the word "work". Please note one important thing ... John quoted Jesus here. It was Jesus himself that said we will be judged by their work.

But please note that Jesus did not say that we would be judged by our works - plural but work singular!!! This is critical! Why did Jesus use the word in the singular rather than the plural? Because we will be judged by one work - and lets ask Jesus what that work is?

John 6:28-29 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

THE WORK THAT WE WILL BE JUDGED BY IS "DID YOU PUT FAITH IN JESUS!!!"

So Jesus uses the word WORK in John 6:29, and he clearly says that our work that will cost us heaven is whether or not we accepted Jesus or not!!!!!

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

The wrath of God falls on people after the judgment - when they have been judged by their "work". Their work was whether or not they have believed in Jesus or not!!

So its not about personal "works" as that is legalism.. Jesus clearly explains what that "WORK" refers to, and as I said, it's "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Felix, it seems you have a LOT to learn!

 

[Saltwater]

The question about Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved is not about sinning alone but losing faith in Christ and rejecting God after becoming partakers of Holy Spirit.

You are truly not saved if Christ cannot find any good fruit in you.

Hello Felix,

It's great to say goodday to another Aussie!!!

Your fruit comment is well said & is backed up by Jhn15:2 linked with v6.

The link between sin leading to unbelief (losing faith in Christ and rejecting God after becoming partakers of Holy Spirit.) is in Heb3:12-15.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,†lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.â€

Comments: v13 unrepented sinning in a Christians life leads to a hardening of the heart against God & obedience to His word.
v14 - we must meet the condition of "holding the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end' in order to remain saved. The "if phrases" scattered throughout the NT are not to be ignored!!
v15 - we can harden our hearts against God so the best "remedy" is obedience to Rom6:11-13 & Rom 8:12-13 iHn1:1-7-9 when dealing with sin in ourlives.

Thanks for the good comments posted by you.

God bless

 

[felix]

1. I noticed you ran and hid from my question..why? Too frightened to answer it?

Is it IMPOSSIBLE for a born again Christian to be SAVED NOW AND ALWAYS SAVED and have ETERNAL SECURITY? Yes or No?

Do you think I hid? Come on.. The whole reason I quoted Heb 6:4-8 is for that question. Born again is becoming partakers of Holy Spirit. Being cursed and end is to be burned doesn't look like inhering eternal life. Since you blame me for 'Eastern Mystism and a bit of Hinduism' which I have no idea what it says, I changed my style of responding to you by just quoting the verse so that if you disagree and blame them, you blame the Holy Spirit - not me.

2. Can a person be saved by FAITH + GRACE ALONE AND NO WORKS? Yes or No?

What does WORKS refer to?
Clarification required:

1. Works of the law?
2. Fruits of Spirit

3. The FRUIT IS LOVE, see Gal 5:22.

Fruit or fruits it doesn't matter (as the same is translated as fruits in Rev 22:2), it still consists of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

4. NOTICE carefully in Rev 22:12, it says WORK, not WORKS! Do you know WHY Felix? Any ideas? And did you know the Bible explains what that WORK is. Did you know that? Any ideas?

Because that's English Translation crap.

Jesus couldn't do mighty works or work?

• (Mark 6:5) Now He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed [them.]
• (Matt 13:58) Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

...unrepented sinning in a Christians life leads to a hardening of the heart against God & obedience to His word...

1. So you have repented of all your sins and never sin anymore? Yes or No?

2. John 6:28-29 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Have you done this WORK? Yes or No?

 

[Saltwater]

1. So you have repented of all your sins and never sin anymore? Yes or No?

2. John 6:28-29 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Have you done this WORK? Yes or No?

Hi there TruthSeeker2012

Uh oh! I'm in trouble!

portion of my quote you are referring to - "unrepented sinning in a Christians life leads to a hardening of the heart against God & obedience to His word..."

Sorry TruthSeeker2012 but I must be as thick as two bricks in a chimney stack!!!

Could you please explain to me how your question 1 is relevant to my quote?
With regards to question 2 which work are you referring to? "that we may work the works of God?" or "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent"

Hint re question 2 answer- please have a look at the info listed under my name!!

Any reason why you left v6 out of your Jhn15:1-5 post?

Looking forward to some clarification of your comments!!!

 

[felix]

1. So you have repented of all your sins and never sin anymore? Yes or No?

2. John 6:28-29 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Have you done this WORK? Yes or No?

This is where God's grace and mercy comes into place. God can still hold you responsible for a small sin, if your heart is against Him but pardon a grave sin if your heart is towards Him (just like David). God's mercy and grace is not a rule book which God must follow but purely His decision out of love for people who love Him. For by 'grace' you are saved.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

This is where God's grace and mercy comes into place. God can still hold you responsible for a small sin, if your heart is against Him but pardon a grave sin if your heart is towards Him (just like David). God's mercy and grace is not a rule book which God must follow but purely His decision out of love for people who love Him. For by 'grace' you are saved.

Your comments are not based on Jesus' teachings or Scripture, but on Eastern Mysticism and Hinduism! You teach err and comments like "God can still hold you responsible for a small sin" shows me that you have never understood what God has done about sin and how God views the redeemed, and how the legal imputation of Christ covers the sinner.

 

[Saltwater]

This is where God's grace and mercy comes into place. God can still hold you responsible for a small sin, if your heart is against Him but pardon a grave sin if your heart is towards Him (just like David). God's mercy and grace is not a rule book which God must follow but purely His decision out of love for people who love Him. For by 'grace' you are saved.

Hi there Felix,

Sorry Felix but this belief of yours re little sins/big sins, heart for/against Him does not dwell within the Bible. God does not show favouritism per Rom2:11.
In His mercy & grace tempered by justice He does give us time to repent of our sins per Rev2:21. Also there are differing degrees of sin (try a word search for "great sin" in your NKJV).

God will pardon our sin when we confess our sins per 1Jhn1:7-9. If we do not keep short accounts of our sin we face the danger of drifting away from God per Heb2:1-3 & then developing an unbelieving heart per Heb 3:12-15. The dangerous thing about drifting is if you do not keep your eyes on a landmark you are not aware you are drifting off course.

For Christians our landmark is the Word of God per Heb2:1.

Hope this clarifies things for you?

 

[felix]

Hi there Felix,

Sorry Felix but this belief of yours re little sins/big sins, heart for/against Him does not dwell within the Bible. God does not show favouritism per Rom2:11.
In His mercy & grace tempered by justice He does give us time to repent of our sins per Rev2:21. Also there are differing degrees of sin (try a word search for "great sin" in your NKJV).

Yes there are different sins eg, I remember discussion in another thread about 1John 5:16-17, where some sins do not lead to death.

(Jas 4:6b) God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.
(1Pet 4:8) And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins."

When God said the following:
(Ezek 33:12) " Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: 'The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of [his righteousness] in the day that he sins.'

A man can live for Christ his entire life, yet before he dies, if he rejects God, as in Ezek 33:12, he will not be saved. But according to John 5:21, the Father and the Son gives life to whom He wills.

You forgot Romans 9. God does show favoritism, yet His judgement is righteous (Rev 16:7)

(Rom 9:18-20) Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed [it,] "Why have you made me like this?"

I agree with the rest of your post.

 

[savedbygrace57]

John 10:27-29

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

It's impossible that one of Christ's Sheep can perish, die in their sins, because Christ has already died in their stead for their sins 1 Cor 15:3, and He was raised again for their Justification Rom 4:25. He has already accomplished their Eternal Redemption for them Heb 9:12, and now is seated in heaven at the right hand of God making intercession for them. Heb 7:25; Rom 8:34

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.