H
Hitch
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"I saw satan laughing with delight the day"; All the believers were fooled by promises of rapture.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
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ex pre-tribulation rapture Christians?
- Thread starter Scotth1960
- Start date
Sinthesis
Member
- Feb 23, 2009
- 5,188
- 264
There is tribulation in general, which you have been promised to suffer as a Christian in the world. There are also particular tribulations. 70AD was a particular tribulation prophesied in the Bible. In this way it is distinct from the plethora of tribulations suffered by populations throughout history which are only generally foretold.
n2thelight
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- Jun 27, 2007
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Post deleted by me,reposted on another elsewhere
Last edited by a moderator:
AKJVReader
Member
- Mar 21, 2011
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50 REASONS FOR PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE...Historical Argument
1. While posttribulationism appeared as early as 2 Thessalonians 2, many in the early church believed in the imminency of the Lord's return, which is an essential doctrine of pretribulationism. ...2. The detailed development of the pretribulational truth during the past few centuries does not prove that the doctrine is new or novel. Its development is similar to that of other major doctrines in the history of the church. Hermeneutics 3. Pretribulationism is the only view that allows literal interpretation of all Old and New Testament passages on the Great Tribulation. 4. Pretribulationism distinguishes clearly between Israel and the church and their respective programs. Nature of the Tribulation 5. Pretribulationism maintains the scriptural distinction between the Great Tribulation and tribulation in general that precedes it. 6. The Great Tribulation is properly interpreted by pretribulationists as a time of preparation for Israel's restoration (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11). It is not the purpose of the Tribulation to prepare the church for glory. 7. None of the Old Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30: 4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2). 8. None of the New Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Matt. 13:30; 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18). 9. In contrast to midtribulationism, the pretribulational view provides an adequate explanation for the beginning of the Great Tribulation in Revelation 6. Midtribulationism is refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the Great Tribulation begins long before the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11. 10. The proper distinction is maintained between the prophetic trumpets of Scripture by pretribulationism. There is no proper ground for the pivotal argument of midtribulationism that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet in that there is no established connection between the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11, the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, and the trumpet of Matthew 24:31. They are three distinct events. 11. The unity of Daniel's seventieth week is maintained by pretribulationists. By contrast, postribulationism and midtribulationists destroy the unity of Daniel's seventieth week and confuse Israel's program with that of the church. Nature of the Church 12. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the second coming of Christ after the Tribulation. 13. The church is not appointed to wrath (Rom. 5:9: 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:9). The church therefore cannot enter "the great day of their wrath" (Rev. 6:17). 14. The church will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:1-9, which includes the Tribulation. 15. The possibility of a believer escaping the Tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36. 16. The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from "the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth" (Rev. 3:10). 17. It is characteristic of divine dealing to deliver believers before a divine judgment is inflicted on the world as illustrated in the deliverance of Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (2 Peter 2:5-9). 18. At the time of the translation of the church, all believers go to the Father's house in heaven (John 14:3) and do not immediately return to the earth after meeting Christ in the air as postribulationists teach. 19. Pretribulationism does not divide the body of Christ at the Rapture on a works principle. The teaching of a partial rapture is based on the false doctrine that the translation of the church is a reward for good works. It is rather a climactic aspect of salvation by grace. 20. The Scriptures clearly teach that all, not part, of the church will be raptured at the coming of Christ for the church (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:17). 21. As opposed to a view of a partial rapture, pretribulationism is founded on the definite teaching of Scripture that the death of Christ frees from all condemnation. 22. The godly remnant of the Tribulation are pictured as Israelites, not members of the church as maintained by the posttribulationists. 23. The pretribulational view, as opposed to posttribulationism, does not confuse general terms like elect and saints, which apply to the saved of all ages, with specific terms like church and those in Christ, which refer to believers of this age only. Doctrine of Imminency 24. The pretribulational interpretation teaches that the coming of Christ is actually imminent. 25. The exhortation to be comforted by the coming of the Lord (1 Thess. 4:18) is very significant in the pretribulational view and is especially contradicted by most posttribulationists. 26. The exhortation to look for "the glorious appearing" of Christ to His own (Titus 2:13) loses its significance if the Tribulation must intervene first. Believers in that case should look for signs. 27. The exhortation to purify ourselves in view of the Lord's return has most significance if His coming is imminent (1 John 3:2-3). 28. The church is uniformly exhorted to look for the coming of the Lord, while believers in the Tribulation are directed to look for signs. The Work of the Holy Spirit 29. The Holy Spirit as the restrainer of evil cannot be taken out of the world unless the church, which the Spirit indwells, is translated at the same time. The Tribulation cannot begin until this restraint is lifted. 30. The Holy Spirit as the restrainer must be taken out of the world before "the lawless one," who dominates the tribulation period, can be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-8). 31. If the expression "except there come a falling away first" (KJV) is translated literally, "except the "departure" come first," it would plainly show the necessity of the Rapture taking place before the beginning of the Tribulation. Necessity of an Interval Between the Rapture and the Second Coming 32. According to 2 Corinthians 5:10, all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven, an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth. 33. If the twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church as many expositors believe, it would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the Tribulation. 34. The coming of Christ for His bride must take place before the Second Coming to the earth for the wedding feast (Rev. 19:7-10). 35. Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary occupations such as farming and building houses, and they will bear children (Isa. 65:20-25). This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming to the earth, as posttribulationists teach. 36. The judgment of the Gentiles following the Second Coming (Matt. 25:31-46) indicates that both saved and unsaved are still in their natural bodies. This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming. 37. If the translation took place in connection with the Second Coming to the earth, there would be no need of separating the sheep from the goats at a subsequent judgment, but the separation would have taken place in the very act of the translation of the believers before Christ actually sets up His throne on earth (Matt. 25:31). 38. The judgment of Israel (Ezek. 20:34-38), which occurs subsequent to the Second Coming, indicates the necessity of regathering Israel. The separation of the saved from the unsaved in this judgment obviously takes place sometime after the Second Coming and would be unnecessary if the saved had previously been separated from the unsaved by translation. Contrast Between the Rapture and the Second Coming 39. At the time of the Rapture the saints meet Christ in the air, while at the Second Coming Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to meet the saints on earth. 40. At the time of the Rapture the Mount of Olives is unchanged, while at the Second Coming it divides and a valley is formed to the east of Jerusalem (Zech. 14:4-5). 41. At the Rapture living saints are translated, while no saints are translated in connection with the second coming of Christ to the earth. 42. At the Rapture the saints go to heaven, while at the Second Coming to the earth the saints remain in the earth without translation. 43. At the time of the Rapture the world is unjudged and continues in sin, while at the Second Coming the world is judged and righteousness is established on the earth. 44. The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance before the day of wrath, while the Second Coming is followed by the deliverance of those who have believed in Christ during the Tribulation. 45. The Rapture is described as imminent, while the Second Coming is preceded by definite signs. 46. The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the New Testament, while the Second Coming with its attendant events is a prominent doctrine of both Testaments. 47. The Rapture concerns only the saved, while the Second Coming deals with both saved and unsaved. 48. At the Rapture Satan is not bound, while at the Second Coming Satan is bound and cast into the abyss. 49. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the Rapture, while many signs must be fulfilled before the Second Coming. 50. No passage dealing with the resurrection of saints at the Second Coming ever mentions translation of living saints at the same time.
1. While posttribulationism appeared as early as 2 Thessalonians 2, many in the early church believed in the imminency of the Lord's return, which is an essential doctrine of pretribulationism. ...2. The detailed development of the pretribulational truth during the past few centuries does not prove that the doctrine is new or novel. Its development is similar to that of other major doctrines in the history of the church. Hermeneutics 3. Pretribulationism is the only view that allows literal interpretation of all Old and New Testament passages on the Great Tribulation. 4. Pretribulationism distinguishes clearly between Israel and the church and their respective programs. Nature of the Tribulation 5. Pretribulationism maintains the scriptural distinction between the Great Tribulation and tribulation in general that precedes it. 6. The Great Tribulation is properly interpreted by pretribulationists as a time of preparation for Israel's restoration (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11). It is not the purpose of the Tribulation to prepare the church for glory. 7. None of the Old Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30: 4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2). 8. None of the New Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Matt. 13:30; 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18). 9. In contrast to midtribulationism, the pretribulational view provides an adequate explanation for the beginning of the Great Tribulation in Revelation 6. Midtribulationism is refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the Great Tribulation begins long before the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11. 10. The proper distinction is maintained between the prophetic trumpets of Scripture by pretribulationism. There is no proper ground for the pivotal argument of midtribulationism that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet in that there is no established connection between the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11, the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, and the trumpet of Matthew 24:31. They are three distinct events. 11. The unity of Daniel's seventieth week is maintained by pretribulationists. By contrast, postribulationism and midtribulationists destroy the unity of Daniel's seventieth week and confuse Israel's program with that of the church. Nature of the Church 12. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the second coming of Christ after the Tribulation. 13. The church is not appointed to wrath (Rom. 5:9: 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:9). The church therefore cannot enter "the great day of their wrath" (Rev. 6:17). 14. The church will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:1-9, which includes the Tribulation. 15. The possibility of a believer escaping the Tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36. 16. The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from "the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth" (Rev. 3:10). 17. It is characteristic of divine dealing to deliver believers before a divine judgment is inflicted on the world as illustrated in the deliverance of Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (2 Peter 2:5-9). 18. At the time of the translation of the church, all believers go to the Father's house in heaven (John 14:3) and do not immediately return to the earth after meeting Christ in the air as postribulationists teach. 19. Pretribulationism does not divide the body of Christ at the Rapture on a works principle. The teaching of a partial rapture is based on the false doctrine that the translation of the church is a reward for good works. It is rather a climactic aspect of salvation by grace. 20. The Scriptures clearly teach that all, not part, of the church will be raptured at the coming of Christ for the church (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:17). 21. As opposed to a view of a partial rapture, pretribulationism is founded on the definite teaching of Scripture that the death of Christ frees from all condemnation. 22. The godly remnant of the Tribulation are pictured as Israelites, not members of the church as maintained by the posttribulationists. 23. The pretribulational view, as opposed to posttribulationism, does not confuse general terms like elect and saints, which apply to the saved of all ages, with specific terms like church and those in Christ, which refer to believers of this age only. Doctrine of Imminency 24. The pretribulational interpretation teaches that the coming of Christ is actually imminent. 25. The exhortation to be comforted by the coming of the Lord (1 Thess. 4:18) is very significant in the pretribulational view and is especially contradicted by most posttribulationists. 26. The exhortation to look for "the glorious appearing" of Christ to His own (Titus 2:13) loses its significance if the Tribulation must intervene first. Believers in that case should look for signs. 27. The exhortation to purify ourselves in view of the Lord's return has most significance if His coming is imminent (1 John 3:2-3). 28. The church is uniformly exhorted to look for the coming of the Lord, while believers in the Tribulation are directed to look for signs. The Work of the Holy Spirit 29. The Holy Spirit as the restrainer of evil cannot be taken out of the world unless the church, which the Spirit indwells, is translated at the same time. The Tribulation cannot begin until this restraint is lifted. 30. The Holy Spirit as the restrainer must be taken out of the world before "the lawless one," who dominates the tribulation period, can be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-8). 31. If the expression "except there come a falling away first" (KJV) is translated literally, "except the "departure" come first," it would plainly show the necessity of the Rapture taking place before the beginning of the Tribulation. Necessity of an Interval Between the Rapture and the Second Coming 32. According to 2 Corinthians 5:10, all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven, an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth. 33. If the twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church as many expositors believe, it would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the Tribulation. 34. The coming of Christ for His bride must take place before the Second Coming to the earth for the wedding feast (Rev. 19:7-10). 35. Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary occupations such as farming and building houses, and they will bear children (Isa. 65:20-25). This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming to the earth, as posttribulationists teach. 36. The judgment of the Gentiles following the Second Coming (Matt. 25:31-46) indicates that both saved and unsaved are still in their natural bodies. This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming. 37. If the translation took place in connection with the Second Coming to the earth, there would be no need of separating the sheep from the goats at a subsequent judgment, but the separation would have taken place in the very act of the translation of the believers before Christ actually sets up His throne on earth (Matt. 25:31). 38. The judgment of Israel (Ezek. 20:34-38), which occurs subsequent to the Second Coming, indicates the necessity of regathering Israel. The separation of the saved from the unsaved in this judgment obviously takes place sometime after the Second Coming and would be unnecessary if the saved had previously been separated from the unsaved by translation. Contrast Between the Rapture and the Second Coming 39. At the time of the Rapture the saints meet Christ in the air, while at the Second Coming Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to meet the saints on earth. 40. At the time of the Rapture the Mount of Olives is unchanged, while at the Second Coming it divides and a valley is formed to the east of Jerusalem (Zech. 14:4-5). 41. At the Rapture living saints are translated, while no saints are translated in connection with the second coming of Christ to the earth. 42. At the Rapture the saints go to heaven, while at the Second Coming to the earth the saints remain in the earth without translation. 43. At the time of the Rapture the world is unjudged and continues in sin, while at the Second Coming the world is judged and righteousness is established on the earth. 44. The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance before the day of wrath, while the Second Coming is followed by the deliverance of those who have believed in Christ during the Tribulation. 45. The Rapture is described as imminent, while the Second Coming is preceded by definite signs. 46. The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the New Testament, while the Second Coming with its attendant events is a prominent doctrine of both Testaments. 47. The Rapture concerns only the saved, while the Second Coming deals with both saved and unsaved. 48. At the Rapture Satan is not bound, while at the Second Coming Satan is bound and cast into the abyss. 49. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the Rapture, while many signs must be fulfilled before the Second Coming. 50. No passage dealing with the resurrection of saints at the Second Coming ever mentions translation of living saints at the same time.
Why would you have to flee the mountains if your not in Judea?
Its says let them who are in Judea flee.
This verse is represented completely in Rev 12:13-17
"Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
Judea flees and the dragon goes to make war againts the rest of her offspring, which are saints (keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ)
"Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy againts God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. It was granted to him to make war with the saints and overcome them."
"I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgement was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for thier witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not recieved his mark on thier foreheads or on thier hands"
As for the rapture....its foolishness, the body is completed at once at His coming, not partiality, the hand given new and the toes, but the arms and the legs must wait...the whole body is gathered together at once.
"those who are Christ's at His coming" 1 Cor 15:20-28
Sinthesis
Member
- Feb 23, 2009
- 5,188
- 264
Do you think Paul, sitting in his cell, ever wondered why he wasn't loved enough to just get whisked up out of there?
Or perhaps do you believe that Paul knew what Christ had endured on earth for us and thought, therefore, that the trials he faced in the body in the service of Christ were insignificant against the everlasting rewards promised?
Or perhaps do you believe that Paul knew what Christ had endured on earth for us and thought, therefore, that the trials he faced in the body in the service of Christ were insignificant against the everlasting rewards promised?
Nope, thats why scripture even shows saints as prisoners singing songs ext while in captivity, persecution was never veiwed as a punishment, nor as a judgement from God, and they used every situation to bring glory to the Lord.
No matter what came before them they had faith that through Christ they had ovecome the world.
One day I was studying the Bible and I understood 2 Peter 3:10 God through the Holy Spirit taught me that the rapture is indeed heresy and not only that I thank God for delivering me out of that false beliefs system. It was a blessing when I found out what really is the Second Coming about.