Bible Study FAITH, And the Knowledge of God's Righteousness

[ezrider]

Jethro
I think what ez is saying is that you might be helping your neighbor because you feel you Have To just so as to follow the law but it is not really in your heart to do so.

If you're doing it from your heart, then you are doing it by faith, obedience as to faith...

I hope EZ comments on this. I find that spiritual language is not easy to understand!

Wondering

Yes, thank you for putting it in those simple words. The same logic goes toward forgiveness of sins. Many only forgive the sins of someone else because they are commanded to do so. Not because it is in there heart to do so, but only because the commandment tells them so.

Now some seem to think that can't show can't mercy to indwelling sin and evil. But the mercy that comes from the heart is not granted to the sin and evil, but because of the sin and evil. The compassion that comes from the heart does not look at the sin, but looks to the Spirit.

 

[ezrider]

I know what he's saying. I understand the widespread Protestant understanding of the law he is sharing here. He's arguing what most Protestants believe.....that following the law is a sin.

I have a problem with this statement Jethro. You see, I am not sharing any Protestant doctrine. In fact, I don't know what the Protestant doctrine is. I don't know the theology of Luther or Calvin. I couldn't tell you what a Baptist believes, or how their beliefs are different from a Pentecostal. And truthfully. I don't care. I have never been to a seminary. I have not studied any devotionals or the works of other men. I have none of that, so please do not try and lump me in with the theology of someone else, or you will be making many false assumptions about what I believe. So, NO, you really don't know what I am saying after all.

I am not sharing the works and traditions of men for my inspiration as around here do. I am only sharing the word as I understand it from my heart and from the scriptures as the Spirit of the Lord has instructed me.

So No, I am not arguing what most Protestants believe. You see, I never said following the law is a sin. Nothing even remotely close. The strength of sin is the Law, but the law itself is not sin. What you do not want to address is the trap and snare that the law can become to you. What is the trap of the Law?

 

[ezrider]

Meanwhile, the saved born-again person who is no longer in the flesh (by virtue of him being born again--Romans 8:9 NASB) looks to the law and can keep it because the authority and power of the flesh once alive and well within him is dead/crucified through the Holy Spirit that dwells within him as the result of his faith in the forgiveness of God.

What makes a person born again? Because they read the words in a book? You have been a member of this forum for quite some time now, so tell me: There are those who claim they are born again Christians who spend the majority of their time here posting daily in the Current Events and Politics Forums. Do the "Born Again" Christians who mostly post in that forum show forth the fruits of the flesh or the Fruits of the Spirit?

 

[ezrider]

Jethro
I think what ez is saying is that you might be helping your neighbor because you feel you Have To just so as to follow the law but it is not really in your heart to do so.

If you're doing it from your heart, then you are doing it by faith, obedience as to faith...

I hope EZ comments on this. I find that spiritual language is not easy to understand!

Wondering

Faith, Law, and our own perceptions. Our own perceptions are often narrow and very shortsighted. The law has a tendency to narrow our perceptions, resulting in own our shortsightedness. FAITH provides us with the means to see beyond those narrow perceptions, to look beyond our own shortsightedness.

Perceptions: As you are aware, my father passed away one week prior to Christmas Eve, and I flew back to New York for his funeral, and we laid him to rest the day before Christmas Eve. But being back there at the funeral services, it was like seeing my dad for the first time. You see, I remembered my dad screaming and hollering at me all the time. I remember my day arguing with my mother all the time. I used to joke I moved west of the Rockies so their voices would echo back off the mountains. I remember my dad whipping my behind, until the day I decided I would fight back. But that was my perception.

But at my dad's funeral, I saw him for the first time. I had so many people come up to me, that I didn't even know, to tell me about my dad. I listened to their stories and I saw their grief. You see, my dad was not a religious man, I don't recall him going to church, and he never spoke of God, but he loved his neighbors more than he did himself.

My dad was a dairy farmer. He was a tiller of the soil, and he was a shepherd of the flocks. And while they were not sheep, I was raised among the calves in the stall. When I was young, my dad would rotate the crops between corn, wheat, clover and alfalfa. When I asked him why he rotated the crops, it was not because the Bible told him to do so. It was because he understood it was the natural way to sustain the topsoil without depleting the nutrients of the soil. Alfalfa fields were plowed under to put nitrogen back into the soil to grow the corn (There is a lesson there in the necessity of the rotten fruit in growing the good fruit).

My dad was engaged and involved in the community. Organizing a dairy co-operative for the farmers in the surrounding counties and serving as their president for many years. My dad was a volunteer fireman, being one of the original founding members back in '52. He dedicated his life to serving the community and to serving others. I had neighbors come up and tell me how my dad would always drop by with an extra basket of tomatoes, or beans, or squash from his garden to drop off, just to visit and see how they were doing.

I saw my dad for the first time. His funeral was a testament to me. While I never knew him to speak of God, the love and respect that was bestowed upon him certainly showed me the faith he lived by.


Oh, by the way, saying that my dad never spoke of God is not entirely true. I heard the words God damn it and Jesus Christ quite often as a kid. Just not in the context most often accepted.

.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I know that you know the scriptures. What is the strength of sin?

The strength of sin is the law:

"56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 15:56-57 NASB bold mine)

But that is only true for natural, unsaved people who's flesh is still alive:

"5For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. (Romans 7:5 NASB bold mine)

But saved people have been set free from the power of the flesh (afforded by the commandment) to bind us to sin

6But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6 NASB bold mine)

People who are aroused to sin by the law are either 1) still bound to sinful flesh and are simply not born again or 2) are born again but unaware of, or untrained in the fact that the law no longer has the hook of their flesh available to it to make them sin. The irresistible authority of the law to make a person sin has ended for the born again person because, just like when a husband dies and the wife is no longer under the authority of the law to keep her bound in faithful obedience to her now deceased husband (Romans 7:1-7 NASB), so it is that when our flesh died with Christ on the cross, the law of Moses could no longer enforce our old, faithful relationship with the flesh.

I prefer to think the latter is true of most people in the church who are languishing in their old lives. They simply don't know about, or are unskilled at walking in the victory that our new husband Christ has given us by setting us free from the authority of the law to keep us bound to the desires of the flesh by crucifying the flesh with him on the cross (Galatians 2:20 NASB, Galatians 5:24 NASB). It's not a popular doctrine in the church today. Instead, misguided teachings that rationalize our continued relationship with old husband 'flesh' are what are being preached in abundance.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You think you are being careful to say WHEN you keep the law; but there is NO WHEN. You either KEEP ALL of the law or you KEEP NONE of it. The scriptures confirm this for you.

Don't get confused. No boast of being able to keep every law of Moses at all times is being made. When Jesus says, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matthew 5:48 NASB) he's saying, "act in any one situation perfectly by responding in the perfection of the Father's love".

When I am walking in the Spirit in any one situation, I am indeed at that time in that circumstance keeping the law. For example, when I reject the temptation to show favoritism I am indeed keeping the law of Moses to not show favoritism (Deuteronomy 19:15 NIV). In that moment, I am responding in the perfection of God. What happens ten minutes later in a different situation in the face of another temptation could be quite different.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What you do not want to address is the trap and snare that the law can become to you. What is the trap of the Law?

The law has two dangers: It can arouse in a person the very sin it is intended to prohibit. But, since I am born again, and I know better, the law can not make me sin because my flesh was crucified with Christ on the cross when I believed (Galatians 5:24 NASB, Romans 7:1-7 NASB).

The other danger would be to think the law is a way to make oneself righteous in God's sight. But that's not going to happen because that teaching surely is abundant in the Protestant church today. Using the works of the law to solicit merit with God towards justification is simply not a problem in the church today. It is among unbelievers who don't know better, though.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do the "Born Again" Christians who mostly post in that forum show forth the fruits of the flesh or the Fruits of the Spirit?

I almost posted this in my previous post (glad I waited):

If I'm born again (I'm speaking on behalf of all born again people) and I'm still in a pattern of sin unbecoming of a son of God, it isn't because the law still has the power to make me sin. It's because I'm either ignorant of the truth that the law no longer has my flesh available to it through which to make me sin (because that flesh died with Christ on the cross), or because I am still in the process of learning and becoming skilled at resisting the voice of the flesh that speaks from the grave calling me to entertain it's desires.

 

[ezra]

Right. There's no such thing as losing your salvation and then getting it back. Once you lose your salvation you can't get it back (Hebrews 6:6 NASB). Confession of sin by the Christian for sin signifies their ongoing faith in Christ--the ongoing faith that keeps Christ interceding on their behalf in the heavenly temple and clean from the guilt of their sin (1 John 1:9 NASB).

then what does 1 john 1:9 say If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
one would have to completely renounce Christ and never return and in that case i have doubts they was ever saved to start with. but to say you loose it and never can get it back.is not the nature of Christ . the rest of the op you all can hash out

 

[smaller]

Right. There's no such thing as losing your salvation and then getting it back. Once you lose your salvation you can't get it back (Hebrews 6:6 NASB).

People tend to see whatever is in their own heart. That's how scripture is set up. Heb. 4:12. Do I see Heb. 6 as you do? Not even remotely close to the same. And from our exchanges you know, scripturally, factually, exactly why. You just choose to ignore my reasoning. I've not only examined your reasoning, but held it, until I rigorously QUESTIONED every aspect of the validity of what I believed and what I'd been sold in the "whole" theology arena.

Believe it or not there are better sights to be had than what traditional orthodoxy and teevee christianity has sold us all.

Confession of sin by the Christian for sin signifies their ongoing faith in Christ--the ongoing faith that keeps Christ interceding on their behalf in the heavenly temple and clean from the guilt of their sin (1 John 1:9 NASB).

How we view that is obviously and again, different. I don't believe the believer has sin held to their account to start with. 2 Cor. 5:19. The "primary" reason for confession is to remind OURSELVES that we are dealing with spiritual adversaries in our own hearts. It's NOT like God in Christ doesn't know whatever it is that needs to be confessed. God actually DOES KNOW our every thought, even BEFORE we think them. That's what GOD KNOWS. That notion that God NEEDS TO HEAR IT from us is ludicrously ignorant. And God is not in need of some "formulamatic exercises" to be performed in order to "forgive us." Again, a ludicrously ignorant notion, as if we make the God of all creation dance on our little ritual strings. Such notions make me ill because they are such lies.

Right. The sinner is made clean from the guilt of his sin, not transformed into a creature with no capacity to sin, nor transformed into a creature that is removed from future temptations of the flesh

The point of reality that has failed you entirely in our conversations hasn't changed Jethro. And it's a problem that "most of us" have between ourselves, which is a basic utter failure to be honest about the facts of having sin indwelling our flesh and evil present with us, JUST LIKE PAUL DID. Romans 7:17-21.

We can all smear on as much religious pastes, mind tricks, positive affirmations, confesions, repentance, follow teachers and teachings, BUT not one bit of any of it will change the reality of having sin indwelling the flesh and evil present with us.

But you see, those workings are not interested in "honesty." Never have been, never will be. Those workings will play any game but honesty.

(I've never even heard a Christian make the claim that Christ does that for them). Former believers who no longer have faith in Christ's ministry in heaven to keep them clean of guilt no longer have that ministry operating on their behalf and are lost and can not come back to repentance.

What? Is Jesus some kind of "talisman" to keep us clean of guilt? Again, where people come up with these notions is beyond me. It's certainly no claim of scripture. Scripture puts us all quite PRECISELY into guilt, right up to the top of our eyeballs and beyond:

Romans 3:
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

That's the conclusion I accept. Yep! No question whatsoever about that! No 'talisman' of Jesus is going to avoid the facts. At some point we learn to press past that to see WHY.

It isn't unloving or condemning to tell people what the Bibles says will happen to former believers.

Oh, yes, I know. You call that LOVE. I don't. Sorry. I've had enough engagements with brainwashed zombies of sectarianism who came to my doorstep to CONDEMN ME and mine to hell. I no longer tolerate such "phony christians" in my home. Just because I don't bow to the charismaniac O' the day on teevee or agree with the formula or incantations of the week that will make me rich or give me a perfect body or kiss the pope's ring, all mostly done to make us all feel better about ourselves doesn't make me and mine condemned to hell. But yes, I know, you call that LOVE, that I must believe like Jethro, or else. Half the believers I've ever met have their "or else GUN" cocked and loaded at their hip, ready to blast me to eternal hell at the slightest chance.

It's not you, but God. That' what your mind tells you anyway. Hey, guess what? It's not God. It's your mind.

There is better to be had, IF you are so led.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

one would have to completely renounce Christ and never return and in that case i have doubts they was ever saved to start with.

Maybe they were never saved to begin with, maybe they were. But one thing's for sure.....they are lost (that is, if God has given them over to their unbelief so as to block the path of repentance back to the Sacrifice).

It's clear to me that we've been trained by the church to automatically think that the fallen 'believer' simply did not ever believe in the first place. But I think the Bible talks more about staying in the faith then it does about making sure you're in it in the first place, yet few sermons seem to cover that subject. And I mean on both sides of the fence.

but to say you loose it and never can get it back.is not the nature of Christ .

Hebrews 6:6 NASB shows us that it is indeed in the nature of God to close the door of repentance to the one who refuses to repent. Perhaps the author is keying off of this:

"30“ ‘But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes the Lord and must be cut off from the people of Israel. 31Because they have despised the Lord’s word and broken his commands, they must surely be cut off; their guilt remains on them.’ ”" (Numbers 15:30-31 NIV bold mine)

and/ or this...

"19When such a person hears the words of this oath and they invoke a blessing on themselves, thinking, “I will be safe, even though I persist in going my own way,” they will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry. 20The Lord will never be willing to forgive them; his wrath and zeal will burn against them." (Deuteronomy 29:19-20 NIV bold and underline mine)

And let's not misunderstand.....the lack of repentance is the outward manifestation of his lack of faith. And it is the lack of faith that ends a person's saving, covenant relationship with God, not necessarily his actions, for God has provided a sacrifice to deal with our evil deeds. Those can be dealt with.

But it's our lack of faith in the sacrifice that God has provided that causes God to not forgive us. You can't be forgiven through a sacrifice that you do not avail yourself of because you have no faith--or no more faith--in that sacrifice. But I do firmly believe God is patient and long suffering and will give space and time to the ex-believer to come back to their senses and trust in the Sacrifice again so he can forgive them through that Sacrifice. Now, that is in the nature of God. But once it''s over, it's over. The sin of blasphemy, once you're turned over to it, is unforgivable (Matthew 12:32 NASB, Numbers 15:30 NASB). But I do not think for a minute that it is in the nature of God to receive someone without a sacrifice.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

ou just choose to ignore my reasoning.

Stop debating and attacking and just stick to sharing your view on scripture.

 

[smaller]

Stop debating and attacking and just stick to sharing your view on scripture.

It's position comparative. Nothing more and certainly nothing personal.

 

[ezrider]

then what does 1 john 1:9 say If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
one would have to completely renounce Christ and never return and in that case i have doubts they was ever saved to start with. but to say you loose it and never can get it back.is not the nature of Christ . the rest of the op you all can hash out

This is NOT an OSAS thread. There are a hundred plus one threads on OSAS over in the Apologetics forum. You can take that conversation over to one of those threads. As to the rest of the OP, I'm not surprised you have no comments or anything to offer. The topic reaches into the spiritual nature and seeking God's Righteousness. I'm just don't know what such an authority on all the sins and evils of "Hellary" and the rest demoncrats can offer when it come to the spiritual matters of the op being hashed out .

 

[ezrider]

Maybe they were never saved to begin with, maybe they were. But one thing's for sure.....they are lost (that is, if God has given them over to their unbelief so as to block the path of repentance back to the Sacrifice).

Just a reminder. This is not a thread on OSAS. Please do not try and make this another OSAS thread. The Topic of the thread is FAITH, and how the Righteousness of GOD is revealed from faith TO FAITH.

 

[ezrider]

The strength of sin is the law:

"56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 15:56-57 NASB bold mine)

But that is only true for natural, unsaved people who's flesh is still alive:

I have emphasized your comment, and I must say that YOU have added this BUT condition to the scripture that the scripture itself has NOT declared. The strength of sin is the law. There is NO BUT about it. While you may be "Born Again", you still remain in the flesh, with all the shortcomings the flesh has to offer; whether you are "saved" or "unsaved." You can not escape the effects of the flesh until you put off this body made of clay. So while you still draw breath here on this earth, escaping it is just not possible.

Your flesh is as much alive as is the flesh of the unsaved person. Your flesh is a much dead through the work of the cross as is the flesh of those you consider unsaved. The saved and the unsaved wear their body of death just the same. Some are aware of it. Some are NOT. And some are want to deny their death, thinking that the salvation offered through Christ will save them from their death. It does not. The saved and the unsaved alike have already been judged according to the sins of the flesh, and ALL have been found guilty unto death. The saved and the unsaved alike share this judgement upon the flesh, and the strength of sin remains upon it.

The salvation through Jesus Christ does not save anyone from their death, but rather brings them to the knowledge of their own death by sin. His salvation saves them from their SECOND DEATH, IF they have moved on and become free from obedience to the law of sin unto death and on to the revelation of Jesus Christ and the Righteousness of God through faith unto Faith.

 

[ezrider]

People who are aroused to sin by the law are either 1) still bound to sinful flesh and are simply not born again or 2) are born again but unaware of, or untrained in the fact that the law no longer has the hook of their flesh available to it to make them sin. The irresistible authority of the law to make a person sin has ended for the born again person because, just like when a husband dies and the wife is no longer under the authority of the law to keep her bound in faithful obedience to her now deceased husband (Romans 7:1-7 NASB), so it is that when our flesh died with Christ on the cross, the law of Moses could no longer enforce our old, faithful relationship with the flesh.

All people in the flesh are aroused to sin by the law, whether they are born again or not.

While I do not disagree with you when you say that our flesh was crucified with Christ, can you explain in your own words how YOUR FLESH as died with Christ? Can you explain in your own words how the Law of Moses can no longer enforce the old relationship of condemnation in the flesh?

 

[ezrider]

The law has two dangers: It can arouse in a person the very sin it is intended to prohibit.

Not sure I would consider that a danger, being that the scripture identifies one of the intended purposes the law was given was so that sin might appear exceedingly sinful.

The other danger would be to think the law is a way to make oneself righteous in God's sight.

.

Ah, yes. Your very close, but not quite there yet. The danger in the law is NOT that one might try and make themselves righteous in God's sight. But there is a danger when we look to the law for righteousness.

 

[ezra]

This is NOT an OSAS thread. There are a hundred plus one threads on OSAS over in the Apologetics forum. You can take that conversation over to one of those threads. As to the rest of the OP, I'm not surprised you have no comments or anything to offer. The topic reaches into the spiritual nature and seeking God's Righteousness. I'm just don't know what such an authority on all the sins and evils of "Hellary" and the rest demoncrats can offer when it come to the spiritual matters of the op being hashed out .

ummm excuse me but who put you in charge of the forum? not real sure what or who your addressing this to all the way if it be me.. you need just speak up and i will gladly hash your indifference with me out. i am a big boy and can handle what ever grievance you have with me. let me set you straight this has NOTHING TO DO with osas . if your implying that i dont know any thing about the spiritual nature and seeking God's Righteousness. i also have no idea what hellary and the democrats has to do with this. so POINT blank you have a problem with me address it.

 

[ezra]

I'm not surprised you have no comments or anything to offer.

lol trust me i have plenty to offer . just not casting my pearls before the swine .. sorry to offend you ..