Bible Study FAITH, And the Knowledge of God's Righteousness

[Jethro Bodine]

Your asking me to confirm that when you say you keep the "law" love your neighbor as yourself, that you are indeed being obedient to the "law". Yes, you have said it yourself. You keep the law, you are obedient to the law.

But you had made the distinction between the two here:

We either walk in obedience unto Faith, or we walk in obedience to the law

Exactly what is the distinction between the two in your quote above? I don't see any. And now it seems you do not either. Explain.

 

[smaller]

You thought wrong. What you fail to see is the fallacy of your own presumptions.

Just showed how the "either or" doesn't work and can't work. Nothing personal. Just because we don't like to look at the details in scripture about the "law of sin" and the reality of indwelling sin and evil present with us doesn't mean it's going away or changing.

If we ignore the law of gravity we still can't jump a mile high in the air, regardless.

Similar principle that you've been toying with from the git go on this subject.

It's not like I haven't heard the litany. It's actually a very common mindset in the charismatic sects. Just look at the "good stuff" only, or you'll JINX yourself. It's almost like a, oh, what do you call it? A superstition.

 

[smaller]

Oh, you can pile on all the scriptures you want that point out the law of sin in operation: But there is no one here denying the operation of the law if sin, you just can't seem to accept that. But then you say there is no alternative to the law of sin being in operation. While there is no prevention to the operation of the law of sin in the flesh, there most certainly IS an ALTERNATIVE. Perhaps that is the part of the truth that was eaten by the scavengers before the leftover carcass was found along the way side.

The "mindset" you've proposed from the start, and it's one I've seen floated in the sphere of christianity many times, is that if we don't partake of the knowledge of good/evil, we'll avoid trouble. i.e. DON'T EAT and the problems will go away.

It's a sister variant to another slant in the realm that claims Adam fell asleep in the Garden and there is no record that he ever woke up, so, likewise, we're all in a dream state as well.

Some of this stuff just gets a little ridiculous. There is no "uneating" of the infamous fruit postured in the scriptures.

Do I really need to post the scripture from the book of Romans that says where sin abounds, Grace abounds all the more?

I would certainly HOPE that you're not proposing to sin more in order to have more Grace? Paul kind of puts that kibosh on that angle in Romans 6:1.

If I posted that scripture, would it actually mean anything to you?

I think part of the difficulty when it comes to the matters of indwelling sin and evil present is this: It DOES require us to bring ourselves into GUILT (Romans 3:19) and even worse, CONDEMNATION, (Romans 8:3).

And of course the FLESH and MIND seem to buckle and crumble apart at such scriptural proposals. I understand that it does make us "feel good" about ourselves when we think of God in Christ as only our Perfect Lover and Perfect Friend.

But, the case of scriptural reality doesn't really make that case at all, whatsoever. It's almost an exact opposite track.

The quest really is to "kill" us. Romans 7:13, Col. 3:3. And no, we really don't like to hear about that at all. No Mam. That will never do.

For it is evident from your many posts that you can't seem to move beyond the "where sin abounds."

Follow Paul to his own end game on the matter. 1 Tim. 1:15 shows Paul, post salvation, standing before us all as not only a mere common sinner, but the chief of sinners. I know. Hard to believe sometimes, but there it is, black type on white paper.

Is that the end of all the knowledge you have to share? Are you even interested in the GRACE of the LORD, and how that GRACE abounds the MORE than does sin.

Part of my personal disdain is the lack of "truthful discourse and exchanges of scriptural facts" among believers in general. And the "reasoning" behind that is kind of exemplified in your posture. Like I said, I had to "deal with the LIES" that the claim brings because it's a common and prevalent LIE in charismania. And people get sorely manipulated by such one sided slants.

It's the "just tell me the good stuff" mentality, and let's pass on what we don't like or what represents "real reality."

What it really says though is DON'T LOOK AT THE WORD, and that is a mindset that I don't think serves any Bible student or any of us for that matter, well a'tall. Just not a good place to go.

I already fully understand the working of sin and where sin abounds. I do not need to pursue it's knowledge any longer.

As noted prior, whether you did or didn't what IS written about it is there to take in and it's also not changing. The disclosures actually DO have very legitimate purposes, believe it or not.

If I were to continue to seek the knowledge of sin and the workings of evil in the flesh, it would provide nothing more to convince me otherwise of the rightful conclusion its working has already drawn.

You seem to think that by ignoring the discourses and only looking at the good stuff, the knowledge of sin and the working of evil in the flesh are going bye bye. That ain't the case, as Paul shows us. There really are more interesting things going on. For example, Eph. 6:11-12, which is at the HEART of the matters. Yes, there is actually a little battle happening for every one of us.

And it happens to be a battle with a VERY REAL "NO MORE I." Romans 7:17 & 20, Romans 7:23, Romans 7:25

The working of sin still has power and operation under the law, for those who have not yet to accept the right conclusion of condemnation. But for those who have accepted that rightful conclusion under the operation of the law, then there is no more working that it can provide.

Yeah, well, that's just entertainment. Mild amusement. You wouldn't be the first person to claim they don't sin and are sinless.

I tend to view scriptures more as a line of critical questioning. For example, it intrigued me GREATLY to actually HEAR what Paul has to say, and even more importantly, HOW he "got to his conclusions."

For example, we don't hear from the pulpits very often (I don't recall EVER hearing the fact in what is a countless number of sermons by now in my life) that Paul was the "chief of sinners" after salvation. I just find that claim incredibly, immensely, interesting myself. So, as few as even see it, even fewer understand how he actually GOT there.

When we look at a scripture from Paul, about Paul himself, from his own hand, in an example such as 2 Cor. 12:7, we can actually see NO MORE I, right there.

And even more interesting is when we see NO MORE I as Paul did in 2 Cor. 12:7, for ourselves.

I call it the BIG GULP moment. Most believers are still being pawned to provide 'COVER' for "NO MORE I" and they don't even realize what they are doing.

Unfortunate side effect of the problem.

 

[ezrider]

When I keep the law "love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18 NASB) because I have faith in Christ, how is that not also being obedient to the law?

You say you keep the LAW "love your neighbor as yourself". Therefore you say you are obedient to the LAW.

Love your neighbor as yourself. Great Wisdom to live by. But what separates you from a follower of Mohamed, or Confucius, or Buddha? All preach the golden rule.

From teachingvalues.com

Christianity
All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
Matthew 7:1

Confucianism
Do not do to others what you would not like yourself. Then there will be no resentment against you, either in the family or in the state.
Analects 12:2

Buddhism
Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.
Udana-Varga 5,1

Hinduism
This is the sum of duty; do naught onto others what you would not have them do unto you.
Mahabharata 5,1517

Islam
No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself.
Sunnah

Judaism
What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellowman. This is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary.
Talmud, Shabbat 3id

Taoism
Regard your neighbor’s gain as your gain, and your neighbor’s loss as your own loss.
Tai Shang Kan Yin P’ien

Zoroastrianism
That nature alone is good which refrains from doing another whatsoever is not good for itself.
Dadisten-I-dinik, 94,5

http://www.teachingvalues.com/goldenrule


So you say you are obedient the Law of Love your neighbor. Does that make you obedient to Islam? Are you obedient to Taoism? Or Buddhism? What is it that distinguished your obedience to Christ?

 

[ezrider]

But you had made the distinction between the two here:

Exactly what is the distinction between the two in your quote above? I don't see any. And now it seems you do not either. Explain.

Yes, there is a distinction between the two. As I have quoted the scriptures in this thread.

Romans 6:16-19
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Some people refuse to see the either/or scenario that Paul addresses, even though it would stare them in the face.

But ye were the servants of sin, yielding your members, your flesh servants to uncleanness and to iniquity UNTO INIQUITY. So the Sins of the Flesh leads unto a GREATER SIN. Iniquity unto Iniquity.


So you say that you KEEP THE LAW of "Love your Neighbor as yourself," that you are Obedient to the LAW. Then I say you are a hypocrite. I say that you do not keep the law love your neighbor. I say there is still hate in your heart. So if you say as you do that you KEEP THE LAW of Love your neighbor as your self: then PROVE it.

(Jethro, please understand that my comment is not intended with malice, nor it is not meant to be taken in a personal way. It is a response to your claim.)

 

[ezrider]

When I keep the law "love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18 NASB) because I have faith in Christ, how is that not also being obedient to the law?

What does that faith mean to you? Do you understand that there are those who have faith in Christ unto the resurrection of damnation, and then there are those who have faith in Christ unto the resurrection of life everlasting. Both have a faith in Christ. One enters in by the narrow way, the other enters in through the broad way.

As the title of this thread suggests and the scriptures presented in the OP, the righteousness of God is revealed by faith. But not just faith. The righteousness of God is revealed from faith, TO FAITH. What does that scripture imply about faith? What does "From faith" "TO FAITH" means to you? Can you explain one faith from the other FAITH?

Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 

[ezra]

There were three different types of Law in Judaism:
Civil Law
Ceremonial Law
Moral Law

For example, the worship laws that Jethro Bodine mentioned in Ephesians 2 are Ceremonial Laws and they were indeed abolished in the sense that they were no longer necessary for persons to follow God because they are external practices, which God is not concerned with.

However, Jesus did not abolish the moral law but fulfilled it. In Him we are made righteous before God since He, as our representative, has accomplished what we could not... perfect obedience which is acceptable to God.

very good explanation the law has its place. but it can never keep us from sinning . it points toward sin. i believe james says if we break one part of the law .we are guilty of breaking all . then again paul did say
Romans 7:12
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You say you keep the LAW "love your neighbor as yourself". Therefore you say you are obedient to the LAW.

Paul says it like this:

"22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." (Galatians 5:22-23 NASB)

When we walk in the fruit of the Spirit there is no outstanding debt of law remaining against you.

Love your neighbor as yourself. Great Wisdom to live by. But what separates you from a follower of Mohamed, or Confucius, or Buddha? All preach the golden rule.
[...]
So you say you are obedient the Law of Love your neighbor. Does that make you obedient to Islam? Are you obedient to Taoism? Or Buddhism?

If those religions have that command in them then of course anyone who keeps that command has satisfied that tenant of their religion.

What is it that distinguished your obedience to Christ?

The fact that I'm actually able to do it is what distinguishes it.
The promise of Christianity is that through the forgiveness of sin, God will give the forgiven person the indwelling Holy Spirit, who will then lead that person into the righteous life of the fruit of the Spirit. This is best, and most exclusively evident in regard to how we treat those who oppose us and hurt us, for even the pagans love those who love them:

"44“But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46“For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47“If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:44-48 NASB)

The distinguishing mark of Christian love is the treatment of it's enemies. That is the perfect and complete manifestation of God's love. Only through the Spirit will a person grow up into that perfection. Meanwhile, people of other Spirit-less religions will dwell in the love they have for those who love them as if that was somehow from God, or admirable in the eyes of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, there is a distinction between the two. As I have quoted the scriptures in this thread.

Romans 6:16-19
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Some people refuse to see the either/or scenario that Paul addresses, even though it would stare them in the face.

You said this:
"We either walk in obedience unto Faith, or we walk in obedience to the law"

The passage above that you quoted does not address that difference. The obedience unto death (Romans 6:16 NASB) is the obedience to sin, not obedience to the law. If a person is being obedient to the law they are not condemned by that obedience. They are condemned if they are obedient to sin:

"16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification." (Romans 6:16-19 NASB)

So you say that you KEEP THE LAW of "Love your Neighbor as yourself," that you are Obedient to the LAW.

I was careful to say WHEN I keep the law "Love your neighbor as yourself" I am being obedient to the law.
It's ridiculous to say a person is not keeping the law of Moses when they do indeed keep the command to love your neighbor as yourself. "Love your neighbor as yourself" IS the law of Moses.

So you say that you KEEP THE LAW of "Love your Neighbor as yourself," that you are Obedient to the LAW. Then I say you are a hypocrite. I say that you do not keep the law love your neighbor. I say there is still hate in your heart. So if you say as you do that you KEEP THE LAW of Love your neighbor as your self: then PROVE it.

(Jethro, please understand that my comment is not intended with malice, nor it is not meant to be taken in a personal way. It is a response to your claim.)

If there was hate in my heart then I wouldn't do loving things toward my neighbor:

43“For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit.
45“The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good" (Luke 6:43,45 NASB)
"first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also." (Matthew 23:26 NASB)

Our actions indicate what's in our heart. God's love can not be feigned because a person will not live the sacrificial life of God's love (as opposed to the pagan's 'love those who love you' love) if it is not first in their heart by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I said:
I keep the law "love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18 NASB) because I have faith in Christ"

What does that faith mean to you?

The faith that loves is the faith the believes Christ has forgiven your sins. A faith which then solicits the indwelling Holy Spirit who causes that person to then reciprocate the love they have received towards others. This is illustrated in the woman who wiped Jesus' feet with her tears:

"her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.” 48Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” " (Luke 7:47-48 NASB)

That's why love is the signifying mark of the Christian. It shows that you have received God's love in the forgiveness of your sins. The human love of the pagans does not signify that. Everyone by nature loves those who love them. It is God's sacrificial love (seen particularly in how it treats it's enemies) that is the mark in the flesh--the circumcision--that signifies that you are in covenant with God through the shed blood of Christ. And when you are walking in that love there is no law of Moses that stands against you to condemn you. You are fulfilling the law, not breaking it so as to be condemned by it (Romans 13:8-10 NASB):

"he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.9For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOUSHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOTCOVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOURNEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8-10 NASB capitals and italics in original)

"4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8:4 NASB)

"the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." (Galatians 5:22-23 NASB bold mine)

 

[GodsGrace]

very good explanation the law has its place. but it can never keep us from sinning . it points toward sin. i believe james says if we break one part of the law .we are guilty of breaking all . then again paul did say
Romans 7:12
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Yes Ezra. Of course, if we break one law we've broken all the law. God is righteous and perfect.
We cannot please Him so we trust in His Beloved Son for our salvation.
He has made the moral law, which we cannot hope to keep, fulfilled for us. This does not mean that we ever stop trying!

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

You said this:
"We either walk in obedience unto Faith, or we walk in obedience to the law"

The passage above that you quoted does not address that difference. The obedience unto death (Romans 6:16 NASB) is the obedience to sin, not obedience to the law. If a person is being obedient to the law they are not condemned by that obedience. They are condemned if they are obedient to sin:

"16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification." (Romans 6:16-19 NASB)



I was careful to say WHEN I keep the law "Love your neighbor as yourself" I am being obedient to the law.
It's ridiculous to say a person is not keeping the law of Moses when they do indeed keep the command to love your neighbor as yourself. "Love your neighbor as yourself" IS the law of Moses.


If there was hate in my heart then I wouldn't do loving things toward my neighbor:

43“For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit.
45“The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good" (Luke 6:43,45 NASB)
"first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also." (Matthew 23:26 NASB)

Our actions indicate what's in our heart. God's love can not be feigned because a person will not live the sacrificial life of God's love (as opposed to the pagan's 'love those who love you' love) if it is not first in their heart by the Holy Spirit.

Jethro
I think what ez is saying is that you might be helping your neighbor because you feel you Have To just so as to follow the law but it is not really in your heart to do so.

If you're doing it from your heart, then you are doing it by faith, obedience as to faith...

I hope EZ comments on this. I find that spiritual language is not easy to understand!

Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think what ez is saying is that you might be helping your neighbor because you feel you Have To just so as to follow the law but it is not really in your heart to do so.

If you're doing it from your heart, then you are doing it by faith, obedience as to faith...

I know what he's saying. I understand the widespread Protestant understanding of the law he is sharing here. He's arguing what most Protestants believe.....that following the law is a sin. But following the law is only sinful when you don't keep it. (and when you try to be justified by it, but let's not complicate the discussion just yet). But somehow in the church just reading the law and then doing what it says became a sin, as if doing that automatically and categorically equates to not walking by the Spirit.


We are exposed as sinners by the law not because we looked to it and tried to keep it, but because we can't keep it.

A natural, unsaved person still in the flesh attempts to keep the law, and fails, and dies spiritually. His sin is not that he looked to the commandment to keep the commandment (that's ludicrous), but that he did not keep the commandment, and so he dies spiritually and sin is aroused to life.

Meanwhile, the saved born-again person who is no longer in the flesh (by virtue of him being born again--Romans 8:9 NASB) looks to the law and can keep it because the authority and power of the flesh once alive and well within him is dead/crucified through the Holy Spirit that dwells within him as the result of his faith in the forgiveness of God.

 

[smaller]

So you say that you KEEP THE LAW of "Love your Neighbor as yourself," that you are Obedient to the LAW. Then I say you are a hypocrite. I say that you do not keep the law love your neighbor.

You are absolutely correct in that assessment. By his own mouth he does not "keep." A simple view of his relationship to, oh, say, his sights or who he thinks are "fallen believers" shows openly that intentions of the heart are in exact opposition to the law he is supposedly "keeping." It's quite easy to spot the hypocrites. Takes about 1/2 a second. Or less.

The very first thing any supposed "law keeper" will figure out is that indwelling sin and evil present can not "law keep." Never has. Never will. Romans 7.

From that point someone who is at least HONEST will arise from the ashheap and "divide" from those workings, NOT in denial of having to deal with them by dishonest hypocrisy.

I know for example that "some of you" here will get this at some point.

And, for the record, as far as it is allowed to be spoken of here, I condemn no one who has called upon Jesus to save them. To me, for me, in my own heart, ALL SUCH are "eternally secure" in Christ, period, end of conversation. That is my extension of "proof" of compliance to Romans 13:8-12.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I condemn no one who has called upon Jesus to save them.

Nobody does.
It's the person who has yet to call upon Jesus to save them, or has abandoned their faith in Jesus that is lost.
No Christ trusting Christian, even the one who is least successful at crucifying the flesh, is lost. He has to stop trusting in Christ to become lost.

"33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us." (Romans 8:33-34 NASB)

Christians are beyond condemnation because they have Christ interceding on their behalf in heaven. But a person loses Christ's intercession on their behalf when they no longer believe in Christ to do that for them.

"9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9 NASB)

Former believers don't confess their sins in the hope of being forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness. Why would they? They no longer believe in Christ to do that for them. They will die in their uncleanness and are lost because they no longer have Christ to save them from their sins.

 

[smaller]

Nobody does.
It's the person who has yet to call upon Jesus to save them, or has abandoned their faith in Jesus that is lost.

Faith and 'terms/conditions' as defined by you is what that translates to.

No Christ trusting Christian, even the one who is least successful at crucifying the flesh, is lost. He has to stop trusting in Christ to become lost.

I'm just looking at your end game. Not every believer falls into that trap nor do they have to according to the same scriptures. Romans 8:35-39, 1 Cor. 13:8, Heb. 3:15 etc.

Former believers don't confess their sins in the hope of being forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness.

And that would be you inserting your own sifting of the scriptures and making that formula mandatory. Others will read the same scriptures and realize no matter how many times confessions are made they are not saved repeatedly nor are any made sinless or without evil present with them no matter how many times confessions are made or how often confessions are made. Romans 7.

Some, like me for example, see such practices as you propose as phony nonsense via twisting the matters beyond all recognition. IN your world confession is another law and another work.

Why would they? They no longer believe in Christ to do that for them. They will die in their uncleanness and are lost because they no longer have Christ to save them from their sins.

And that's just Jethro eliminating Jesus from the equations and nothing more than that.

The "end game" however is on you. You can't love them as you claim, and MUST rather condemn them, as your positions force you into that place.

 

[ezra]

I know what he's saying. I understand the widespread Protestant understanding of the law he is sharing here. He's arguing what most Protestants believe.....that following the law is a sin. But following the law is only sinful when you don't keep it. (and when you try to be justified by it, but let's not complicate the discussion just yet). But somehow in the church just reading the law and then doing what it says became a sin, as if doing that automatically and categorically equates to not walking by the Spirit.


We are exposed as sinners by the law not because we looked to it and tried to keep it, but because we can't keep it.

A natural, unsaved person still in the flesh attempts to keep the law, and fails, and dies spiritually. His sin is not that he looked to the commandment to keep the commandment (that's ludicrous), but that he did not keep the commandment, and so he dies spiritually and sin is aroused to life.

Meanwhile, the saved born-again person who is no longer in the flesh (by virtue of him being born again--Romans 8:9 NASB) looks to the law and can keep it because the authority and power of the flesh once alive and well within him is dead/crucified through the Holy Spirit that dwells within him as the result of his faith in the forgiveness of God.

the law is there no way to get away from it. the law in informative Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Others will read the same scriptures and realize no matter how many times confessions are made they are not saved repeatedly...

Right. There's no such thing as losing your salvation and then getting it back. Once you lose your salvation you can't get it back (Hebrews 6:6 NASB). Confession of sin by the Christian for sin signifies their ongoing faith in Christ--the ongoing faith that keeps Christ interceding on their behalf in the heavenly temple and clean from the guilt of their sin (1 John 1:9 NASB).

...nor are any made sinless or without evil present with them no matter how many times confessions are made or how often confessions are made.

Right. The sinner is made clean from the guilt of his sin, not transformed into a creature with no capacity to sin, nor transformed into a creature that is removed from future temptations of the flesh (I've never even heard a Christian make the claim that Christ does that for them). Former believers who no longer have faith in Christ's ministry in heaven to keep them clean of guilt no longer have that ministry operating on their behalf and are lost and can not come back to repentance.

The "end game" however is on you. You can't love them as you claim, and MUST rather condemn them, as your positions force you into that place.

It isn't unloving or condemning to tell people what the Bibles says will happen to former believers. In fact, it's the loving thing to do to warn believers to stay in their faith, or else be lost. That's what various authors of the Bible do. And we certainly don't accuse them of being unloving and condemning.

What I think we shouldn't do is judge when and where God has given the former believer over to their decision to leave their faith in Christ. That we can not judge, because we can not know if God is truly done with a person. None of us can know with certainty when the former believer has passed the point of no return. Only God knows that. In any discussion I have with people who have fallen into unbelief I am careful to not tell them they can never come back. I simply don't know, and can't know if God is done trying to woe them back to faith in Christ. I can only know what their fate is if he is done trying to do that.

 

[ezrider]

You said this:
"We either walk in obedience unto Faith, or we walk in obedience to the law"

The passage above that you quoted does not address that difference. The obedience unto death (Romans 6:16 NASB) is the obedience to sin, not obedience to the law.

Come on now Jethro, let us not strain at the gnat. I know that you know the scriptures. What is the strength of sin?

 

[ezrider]

I was careful to say WHEN I keep the law "Love your neighbor as yourself" I am being obedient to the law.

You think you are being careful to say WHEN you keep the law; but there is NO WHEN. You either KEEP ALL of the law or you KEEP NONE of it. The scriptures confirm this for you.

It is written that the whole of the law can be summed up in the commandment you shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and love thy neighbor as thyself. So when you say that you keep the law of love thy neighbor as thyself, then what you are declaring is that you keep the whole of the law. Anyone that says they can keep the whole of the law is a liar and a hypocrite.