Bible Study FAITH, And the Knowledge of God's Righteousness

[Jethro Bodine]

Then, when someone, anyone comes along and says they are legally obedient

You've never once obeyed a commandment in the law? Really?

And the real topper is when someone claims to love their neighbors as themselves but the blatant reality shows the exact opposite, well, what can a person do but point out the obvious contradiction for what it is?

fwiw I DO NOT exempt my own sorry hide from the examples either.

I find it interesting that you have never once loved your neighbor as yourself.
Interesting.

 

[ezrider]

Yeah, the Holy Spirit who is inside of me is greater than the power of my fleshly desires. It's like he makes them powerless as if he slew them.


Yeah.
Because the Holy Spirit has put the flesh to death (see above), I no longer have to obey the flesh by force of law (you know, that 'law making me sin' thing).

You still haven't really expressed in your own words how the power of the Holy Spirit has put your flesh to death. Try painting the picture of how YOU perceive the work of the Holy Spirit within YOURSELF to bring you to the conclusion of your own death. How does that conclusion then make you free. Just don't say its like having a death certificate. I understand that, and that is just referencing a scripture for your answer. I don't want your scriptural answer. I want to hear you express in your own words what it means to YOU to know your death in Christ.

 

[ezrider]

Oh, I see now. You're judging a certain someone (I mean, that's what it's called when us regular believers call hyper-grace people out concerning their sin).

I have judged no one. Their own words judge themselves.

But to this hyper-grace of yours, I told you I am not of any church doctrine. Is there a church that teaches the Grace through Faith without the covering of blood? Because that is where my FAITH has come to. I walk by FAITH under GRACE without the need to further cover my sins in the blood of Christ. After all, a blood sacrifice was a requirement under the law, and I am not under the law.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I want to hear you express in your own words what it means to YOU to know your death in Christ.

I have peace and contentment that drains the power out of my sinful fleshly impulses.

I walk by FAITH under GRACE without the need to further cover my sins in the blood of Christ. After all, a blood sacrifice was a requirement under the law, and I am not under the law.

How does your religion uphold the lawful requirement for blood?
If you say you do not need blood for the forgiveness of sin then you do not have saving faith. Your faith is in something else that can not save.

"we have now been justified by his blood" (Romans 5:9 NASB)
"25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith." (Romans 3:25 NASB)

Now what's different about the blood of Christ vs. the blood of animals is that the blood of Christ doesn't have to be reapplied on the altar. It remains there and is not consumed. The blood, and High Priest Jesus himself, are always present before the Father to make intercession on your behalf.

Just because the blood doesn't have to be reapplied doesn't mean you don't have to have it there on your behalf through your continuing faith. You do in fact need the continuing covering of the blood. It's just that you do not have to reapply it on the altar every time you sin. You simply make your appeal to the blood that is already there on your behalf through your faith.

 

[smaller]

You've never once obeyed a commandment in the law? Really?

Never, not one single time in all of human history, has the evil present with man, the indwelling sin, obeyed a single commandment. Romans 7:17-21.

No, not one time has this ever happened.

IF anyone other than God in Christ Himself "obeyed" any command, they did so just as Paul did, with "evil present" with them.

This is the basis of the Gospel of Grace and Mercy in Christ.

I find it interesting that you have never once loved your neighbor as yourself.
Interesting.

I wish I could speak more frankly about how your position "really" treats neighbors but that much truth doesn't fly. Indwelling sin and evil present gets very riled up, sometimes even violent, when exposed and shaken.

 

[ezrider]

I have peace and contentment that drains the power out of my sinful fleshly impulses.

If a man approached you famished and athirst wandering in the desert and asked you for a cup of living water to wet the tongue of a parched soul, would you hand him a cup of sand? Or perhaps vinegar and gall? I find your answers to this question rather empty and lacking any substance.

 

[ezrider]

How does your religion uphold the lawful requirement for blood?

I hold to a FAITH under GRACE. Not to a faith under the Law that requires the covering of blood for my sins. I am free from the law of sin. Then I am free indeed. I walk according to the obedience unto FAITH. I am dead to the law of sin and death, and I am free from its requirement for blood. Perhaps if you still feel the need for the blood to cleanse your sins, then you still remain obedient to the works of the law?

 

[ezrider]

If you say you do not need blood for the forgiveness of sin then you do not have saving faith. Your faith is in something else that can not save.

Yes, I say I no longer need the blood for the forgiveness of sin, but you would be INCORRECT in saying that my FAITH is not a saving FAITH. But you right, my Faith is in something else other than just the blood of Christ, something greater, which has the true power to save.



Oh, and just for clarification, we have moved beyond the notion that I am supposedly talking about some church hyper-grace doctrine, haven't we? Does this mean you might listen more intently to try and understand the FAITH I speak of, or will you continue to try and defend the faith that you understand? You never did express what FAITH the scripture is referring to when it says the Righteousness of God is revealed from faith TO FAITH. Heck, you have a hard time explaining in simple words how you are dead in Christ and what that means to you.

 

[ezrider]

You simply make your appeal to the blood that is already there on your behalf through your faith.

Then you are making your appeal to the blood under the requirements of the law, and as the scriptures do declare, you are crucifying Christ to yourself again, and putting him to open shame.

You said that your flesh is dead to sin. If it is dead to sin, then what covering does death require? Are you living unto DEATH? Or are you living unto FAITH in CHRIST?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I find your answers to this question rather empty and lacking any substance.

God's comfort inside of me makes it so I don't HAVE to entertain the sinful desires of my flesh.
If I do entertain the sinful desires of my flesh it is because I have chosen to do so, for whatever the reason. But one thing's for sure, as a Christian, the reason is NEVER because I HAVE to by force of the law. NEVER. I have been set free from that. The law no longer has the power and authority to do that to me.

For someone who likes to talk about 'not being under the law' this should be resonating quite loudly with you, unless you simply have a faulty understanding of what it means to not be under the law. Which I suspect you do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then you are making your appeal to the blood under the requirements of the law, and as the scriptures do declare, you are crucifying Christ to yourself again, and putting him to open shame.

Nope.
The blood is already there. I'm not making a new and different and subsequent sacrifice. I'm relying on the one sacrifice that has already been made and which is always on the altar in heaven on my behalf through my faith in that sacrifice.

14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
18Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.
(Hebrews 10:14,18 NASB)

The author is not saying we don't need a sacrifice of blood in this New Covenant. In fact, he says quite the opposite: "without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness"-Hebrews 9:22 NASB.

The author is saying the required sacrifice of blood only has to be made one time, for all time. Which it has. And that one time, for all time sacrifice which has already been made is presently interceding in heaven for every soul who has faith in that sacrifice. It's always there. That's why it isn't necessary to make a subsequent sacrifice for subsequent sin. That's what it means for there to be "no longer any offering for sin" (vs.18 above). You don't have to do that since the one time, for all time sacrifice is still on the altar. All you need to do is continue to make your appeal to that ever present Sacrifice through your continuing faith in it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then you are making your appeal to the blood under the requirements of the law

Look how the author of Hebrews likens the Sacrifice of Jesus to that made according to the law of Moses:

"the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest as an offering for sin, are burned outside the camp. 12Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate." (Hebrews 13:11-12 NASB italics in original)

The sacrifices of the law of Moses were made in similitude to the Sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus is the fulfilling and satisfying of the sacrifices required in the law of Moses, not the destruction of them (he said he did not come to do that-Matthew 5:17 NASB). Jesus is the fulfillment of the ceremonial law, not the trampling of it. And since he is the fulfillment of it, having satisfied it's requirements with his own blood and body, we simply don't need to do them anymore. They are not destroyed. They are simply not needed anymore, and so they have been set on the sidelines of history as procedures and timetables to bring man close to God that we don't need anymore, because we have been brought near to God through a better and lasting covenant, the blood and body of Christ.

The point being, the New Covenant is not a blood-less, sacrifice-less covenant. The very reason the old covenant has the requirement for blood is because it is a picture and illustration of the true and eternal sacrifice of the body and blood of Jesus. We most certainly do need blood sacrifice in this New Covenant to be forgiven. What's different is we don't fulfill that requirement in the old WAY of the written code, but rather in the new WAY of the Spirit by faith in the blood and body of Jesus (Romans 7:6 NIV).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Oh, and just for clarification, we have moved beyond the notion that I am supposedly talking about some church hyper-grace doctrine, haven't we?

No, because I'm pretty sure a basic belief of the 'free grace' 'hyper-grace' movement is this idea that it is not necessary to make any appeal to God for the forgiveness of sin after you are born again. Which 1 John 1:9 refutes quite soundly. Cleansing from sin guilt continues after being born again. Christ's sacrifice is always there to deal with the uncleanness of subsequent sin for the born again believer. And it is continually secured through our continuing faith in that Sacrifice.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You never did express what FAITH the scripture is referring to when it says the Righteousness of God is revealed from faith TO FAITH.

Justification/ salvation is utterly of faith. It is by faith through and through, from beginning to end, inside and out. As opposed to there being any element of works playing a role in justification/ salvation.

The only way for fallen man to be made righteous is through the forgiveness of the transgression that makes him unrighteous. And we lay hold of that forgiveness through our trust and confidence that the blood of Christ will secure that for us. God sees the condemned sinner casting all faith and hope on the efficacy of the blood to secure his forgiveness, and rejecting all efforts of works to secure peace with God as futile and worthless, and God sees to it that the Sacrifice is indeed applied to that person according to their faith: “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” (Luke 7:50 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Heck, you have a hard time explaining in simple words how you are dead in Christ and what that means to you.

No hard time for me. I know exactly what's going on inside of me. I shared the experience quite clearly.
I suspect what is making what I say seem hard is you can not relate to the experience, perhaps?

Could it be that instead of people having some measure of victory over sin, they have crafted a gospel that rationalizes sin in a person. This seems to be the motivation behind the various hyper-grace beliefs. They don't experience victory over sin so they change the gospel to suit that defeat.

I have noticed that the people who try to make the expectation for righteous behavior 'go away' are probably struggling with either sexual sin, or substance abuse. But I'm convinced the real gospel is quite able to deliver a person from the bondage of those things. There is no need for the 'free grace' and 'hyper-grace' distortions of the real gospel which seek to redefine sin, or make sin a non-issue altogether.

 

[ezra]

No hard time for me. I know exactly what's going on inside of me. I shared the experience quite clearly.
I suspect what is making what I say seem hard is you can not relate to the experience, perhaps?

Could it be that instead of people having some measure of victory over sin, they have crafted a gospel that rationalizes sin in a person. This seems to be the motivation behind the various hyper-grace beliefs. They don't experience victory over sin so they change the gospel to suit that defeat.

I have noticed that the people who try to make the expectation for righteous behavior 'go away' are probably struggling with either sexual sin, or substance abuse. But I'm convinced the real gospel is quite able to deliver a person from the bondage of those things. There is no need for the 'free grace' and 'hyper-grace' distortions of the real gospel which seek to redefine sin, or make sin a non-issue altogether.

we can not have eternal life with out the blood AND NOR CAN we have eternal life with out the resurrection yes all this equals Grace but one has to have the right ingredients to have this Grace. it is a package deal made at Calvary. there is no wonder so many folks are confused .to much strange fire theology

 

[ezra]

No hard time for me. I know exactly what's going on inside of me. I shared the experience quite clearly.
I suspect what is making what I say seem hard is you can not relate to the experience, perhaps?

Could it be that instead of people having some measure of victory over sin, they have crafted a gospel that rationalizes sin in a person. This seems to be the motivation behind the various hyper-grace beliefs. They don't experience victory over sin so they change the gospel to suit that defeat.

I have noticed that the people who try to make the expectation for righteous behavior 'go away' are probably struggling with either sexual sin, or substance abuse. But I'm convinced the real gospel is quite able to deliver a person from the bondage of those things. There is no need for the 'free grace' and 'hyper-grace' distortions of the real gospel which seek to redefine sin, or make sin a non-issue altogether.

 

[ezrider]

God's comfort inside of me makes it so I don't HAVE to entertain the sinful desires of my flesh.

Come on Jethro, I can do this all day long. How does God comfort inside you make it so. Have you no depth to the in your own understanding that you can not express? You said your flesh is dead in Christ through his crucifixion. I have asked you to try and explain how you understand this concept in your own words. I know the words of the Bible. You repeating them to me does not give me any insight into your own personal understanding.

Pretend I am blind, and we are standing in Yosemite Valley. I have already heard how the artist saw the valley, others have described his pictures to me. But I am not interested in the pictures, I want you to describe to me what you see and how it makes you feel, Paint the picture for me.

For someone who likes to talk about 'not being under the law' this should be resonating quite loudly with you, unless you simply have a faulty understanding of what it means to not be under the law. Which I suspect you do.

I understand what it means to be under the law and not under the law. The scriptures resonate with me, but your explanation of them I find rather shallow.

 

[ezrider]

All you need to do is continue to make your appeal to that ever present Sacrifice through your continuing faith in it.

If your flesh is dead and you are free from sin, then why must you continue to make an appeal? Only one who is NOT FREE from sin would feel compelled to make an appeal. If I am free from sin indeed, then there is nothing to appeal.


Hebrews 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
.

 

[ezrider]

The sacrifices of the law of Moses were made in similitude to the Sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus is the fulfilling and satisfying of the sacrifices required in the law of Moses,

This is a true statement. The sacrifices of the law of Moses were made in the similitude to the sacrifice of Jesus: For those who remain obedient unto death. For those who remain obedient to the law of sin. These still seek the covering of blood for their sins. These come forth to the resurrection of damnation.

But there was a different sacrifice done by Moses, that was also made in the similitude to the sacrifice of Christ. When God confirmed the Covenant of Death he had made with Moses, Moses sacrificed a Bull ONE time, and its blood consecrated the Covenant. Likewise, the one time sacrifice of Jesus and His Blood confirmed the New Covenant, the one promised to Abraham, the Covenant of Faith. And those under the Covenant of Faith, entered into that covenant through His Blood one time only. They are called forth unto obedience unto faith. They are called forth to the resurrection of life.

John 5:28:29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Daniel 12:2-4
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

.