Bible Study FAITH, And the Knowledge of God's Righteousness

[Jethro Bodine]

What is the predominant method within the Churches to preach the salvation of Christ. Do they not continue to preach the sin, the wrath of God and eternal damnation as their reason for needing Christ?

I hope so.
Our sin and the wrath of God and eternal damnation for that sin surely is the reason we need salvation. That is what we are being saved from.

I like that. It fits right in with one of my favorite sayings. Why does the grass always appear greener on the other side of the fence? Because there is more bull crap on the other side of the fence.

I grew upon a dairy farm. Know the benefits of manure. Spread it in the fields for fertilizer. All organic.

But that does get to a point, which does bring us back on of the lessons in this thread. We were given the Law so that we might know good and evil, and the knowledge of sin and death. But that is as far as the law extends. We were given FAITH IN CHRIST absent from the law so that we might learn to grow in GRACE and MERCY. If there was no "evil" in the world and there was only good, then how would we ever learn mercy and grace so the we may become perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect. Perfect in Grace and Mercy.

We have to be careful to not consider the law the manure.
The manure is the evil within us that is provoked by the law while we were still in the flesh before being born again.
In the analogy, the law could be the shovel with which the manure is stirred up and turned over.
And the stain of the manure that gets exposed by the law can then be brought before God and removed by His grace.
After which, we then uphold and fulfill the righteousness of the law, not cast it down (Romans 3:31 NASB, Romans 8:4 NASB).

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't need to post. Parker covered it already.
Evil is not a 'thing' that is created. It's simply a person, or angel, choosing to act contrary to the character of God. God has allowed that.

Parker has explained nothing - except salvation economy.

I'm surprised that no one can grasp what I'm saying - or at least this is what it seems to me.
A thread like this went on for pages on another forum.

Three of the top posters on this forum, you, Parker and EZ, can tell me anything I want to know about Christianity except where evil originates.
Not only that, but they haven't even given it a great deal of thought. Or, they've come up with answers that do not answer the question.

It is an interesting topic to me and has been for theologians throughout the ages.

How can a God who is all good and omnipotent allow evil to exist and to continue?
Christianity's big problem and unanswerable question.
Yet, some here believe they have the answer.

Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How can a God who is all good and omnipotent allow evil to exist and to continue?
Christianity's big problem and unanswerable question.

There's nothing unanswerable about it.
Even we mortals know that often the disease itself administered to the person is how you immunize that person against the disease.
The disease of sin is treated the same way.

Have you ever taken your child to a measles party? Probably not, I'm guessing. But you know about parents doing that. They allow the exposure to the evil of the sickness for the long range good that it will do them. God is that kind of parent.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The suffering you and I call 'evil' is actually good for us, not evil:

2Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, 3knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." (James 1:2-4 NASB)

"so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing"....THAT'S why God allows evil.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Have you ever taken your child to a measles party? Probably not, I'm guessing. But you know about parents doing that. They allow the exposure to the evil of the sickness for the long range good that it will do them. God is that kind of parent.

Sure, it's probably going to leave scars. But the consequences of you having the disease in the future are too profound to not expose you to the disease now. Think spiritually.

 

[ezrider]

There's nothing unanswerable about it.
Even we mortals know that often the disease itself administered to the person is how you immunize that person against the disease.
The disease of sin is treated the same way.

Have you ever taken your child to a measles party? Probably not, I'm guessing. But you know about parents doing that. They allow the exposure to the evil of the sickness for the long range good that it will do them. God is that kind of parent.

Very good analogy, though one must be careful. Measles parties were intended to give you measles, the live version. But the administered immunization on the other hand, isn't that done with dead viruses?

 

[GodsGrace]

The suffering you and I call 'evil' is actually good for us, not evil:

2Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, 3knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." (James 1:2-4 NASB)

"so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing"....THAT'S why God allows evil.

Evil is good for us?
Cancer is good for us?
Tsunamis are good for us?

What are you talking about Jethro??

 

[GodsGrace]

Very good analogy, though one must be careful. Measles parties were intended to give you measles, the live version. But the administered immunization on the other hand, isn't that done with dead viruses?

Horrible analogy.
I kind of thought God was GOD, and didn't have to stoop to immunizations.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Very good analogy, though one must be careful. Measles parties were intended to give you measles, the live version. But the administered immunization on the other hand, isn't that done with dead viruses?

That's like saying God is going to make me sin so I could learn not to sin...

If God is perfect, how could imperfection come from Him?
Imperfection comes from man because man is imperfect.
Is sin an imperfection?
Is evil an imperfection?

Wondering

 

[ezrider]

Very good analogy, though one must be careful. Measles parties were intended to give you measles, the live version. But the administered immunization on the other hand, isn't that done with dead viruses?

Horrible analogy.
I kind of thought God was GOD, and didn't have to stoop to immunizations.

Wondering

God didn't have to stoop to immunizations? Jesus Christ was the immunization given to the world. He was slain for our sins. He has become a curse for us. He is the dead virus, sent to build up our immunity so that we might die to sin and evil, that we might go forth and learn grace and mercy.

 

[ezrider]

That's like saying God is going to make me sin so I could learn not to sin...

No, that's like saying God is going to allow me to sin so that I might understand His Grace and Mercy, so that by faith the righteousness of God might be revealed.


Romans 5:20-21
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Jim Parker]

NO.

YES.

God does not want us to become GOD. Adam was created a SON of GOD, and fell. Jesus was created a SON of GOD, and was raised. We, by the Spirit are to be a new creation formed in the image of Christ as a SON of GOD. Jesus, walking in the flesh as a man, was the perfect image of the SON of GOD.

Jesus is the incarnate, eternal, Logos Who is God. (John 1:1, 14)
He is also the Son of God by being God who was born of the virgin as Jesus of Nazareth. (Luke 1:35)
Adam was created; he was a "creature". (Gen 2:7)
The Logos was not created but was always God. (John 1:1)
It is illogical to equate assume that the one use of the term "Son of God" with reference to Adam (Luk 3:38) has the same meaning when applied to the incarnate Logos.

We are to be intimately united to God in Christ. As the bride of Christ (2Co 11:2) with Whom the church is "one flesh." (Eph 5:31-32)
We cannot become God in essence. Only God is divine and we cannot become deity. (No matter what Joseph Smith said.)
But we are called to partake of God's divine nature. (2 Pe 1:4)
As Christ was the man who is God, by the indwelling of the Trinity we become God-bearing men. (John 14:16-20)

Jesus is God in flesh or "Emmanuel, God with us." (Mat 1:23).
Believers are God-bearers who bring God with us in our flesh. (a significant difference from being God in flesh)
So, we do not actually "become God" which would require a change of our essence from creature to divinity.
But, IN CHRIST, we become God-bearers after the example of Jesus of Nazareth.

And, no, being creatures (created beings) we can never be a part of the uncreated, eternal, God in Trinity.
But believers are in Christ who is in the Father - Who is in the Son - Who is in believers.

John 14:16-20 (RSV) And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you desolate; I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world will see me no more, but you will see me; because I live, you will live also. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Jim Parker]

Is evil not also in nature?
Romans 8:21-22

Nature is subjected to the result of sin, which is corruption. But nature itself, which does not choose good or evil, is not itself evil.

Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nature is subjected to the result of sin, which is corruption. But nature itself, which does not choose good or evil, is not itself evil.

Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Sin entered into everything.
Man and nature.
A warm breeze is good.
A hurricane is bad.
Bad is evil.
Something is either good or evil - there is no in between.
I choose good or I choose bad.
Good is on the side of God.
Bad is on the side of satan.
Nothing in the middle of the two.
You're walking toward God or you're walking toward satan and damnation.
What is not good is evil.
God brings good. Satan brings evil.

I see no way around this...

 

[GodsGrace]

Nature is subjected to the result of sin, which is corruption. But nature itself, which does not choose good or evil, is not itself evil.

Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

We can say that sin is evil.
Even if we're born again, when we sin we are answering to the temptation of the devil. God does not tempt us to do evil and to sin.
James 1:13

What is sin?
Sin is lawlessness.
The one who practices righteousness is righteous.
The one who practices sin is of the devil.
The children of God and the children of the devil are obvious, anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God.
Caine was of the evil one because he killed his brother - he sinned. His deed was evil.
1 John 3:4-12

Who tempted Jesus in the desert?
Who tempted Him to sin?
Satan. Satan is evil. When answering his temptation, we sin.
Mathew 4.1

My point is that sin entered into everything God had created.
Psalm 19:1
God created everything, and everything is infected with the sin nature.
Sin is evil. Evil is also in nature since sin is in nature.
Nature groans and waits as we do for the setting free of its slavery to corruption - and what corrupted nature? Sin.
Romans 8:21

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

There's nothing unanswerable about it.
Even we mortals know that often the disease itself administered to the person is how you immunize that person against the disease.
The disease of sin is treated the same way.

Have you ever taken your child to a measles party? Probably not, I'm guessing. But you know about parents doing that. They allow the exposure to the evil of the sickness for the long range good that it will do them. God is that kind of parent.

No Jethro.
I would NOT take my child to a measles party.
The measles are a serious infection and not a party.
I believe the role of a parent is to protect their children from sickness and disease, not expose them to it.

My belief is that we should not be exposed to sin and evil, as much as possible.
I do not believe God is the God you propose above.

"Thou dost prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies,
Thou hast annointed my head with oil; my cup overlfows.
Surely goodness and lovingkindness will follow me all the days of my life..."
Psalm 23:5-6 NASB

That sounds like a loving God to me. Not one who has to make me sick or make me sin to teach me something.
I do believe He can take that and make good come of it - but I cannot believe he causes it.
Romans 8:28

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

No, that's like saying God is going to allow me to sin so that I might understand His Grace and Mercy, so that by faith the righteousness of God might be revealed.


Romans 5:20-21
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

What are you saying?
Where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more because we need God's grace more.
It does not mean that God's grace works at a better level when we are sinning.
Which seems to be what you are saying.

I don't need to sin to understand God's grace and mercy.
What mercy is there in Him if He allows me purposefully to sin so that I might know His mercy?
Sounds kind of convoluted to me...

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

ezrider

Hi EZ,
I was hoping for an answer to the below post of mine, no. 55.
It's in answer to your questions in your post no. 52.
Do you have an opinion?

Wondering

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Hi EZ
Yes. I have great difficulty reconciling God's omnipotence and goodness in regard to evil. Dualism rears its ugly head every now and then, but that is no solution because it would detract from God's sovereignty.

As to your questions:

1. I believed in the Natural Law even before I was born again. I don't need the Bible in regard to homosexuality. I regard it as a bad influence to society in general and as a cause of harm.
It goes against natural law. It was never accepted as good by any society in general until we became brainwashed into thinking it's politically correct and a very modern and cool way to think. Families exist for a reason...Procreation assures our survival as a race. Families are made to have common goals and to help each other as they go through the difficulties of life.
So, yes, I'd say that homosexuality per se is not in keeping with natural law.

2. The act of Joseph's brothers was evil.
God, who is sovereign, took that act and worked it for the good..
Only God can sit in judgement in this case. But we cannot say the act was good.
We say that the end does not justify the means.
I'm not sure about this.
I wish someone had killed Hitler in 1935.

Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Evil is good for us?
Cancer is good for us?
Tsunamis are good for us?

What are you talking about Jethro??

71It is good for me that I was afflicted,
That I may learn Your statutes.

75I know, O LORD, that Your judgments are righteous,
And that in faithfulness You have afflicted me.

(Psalms 119:71,75 NASB)

I know these won't sway you an inch, but what the heck.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Bad is on the side of satan.
Nothing in the middle of the two.
You're walking toward God or you're walking toward satan and damnation.
What is not good is evil.
God brings good. Satan brings evil.

When the doctor is setting a broken bone for someone.....good, or bad?
According to your thinking it has be from satan. But the truth is it's a good thing, even though it hurts like the dickens.