GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Of course they won't.
I could post just as many telling how God hates evil.
If you ever care to really discuss the OT, it could be by PM.
Not to derail this thread...
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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Bible Study FAITH, And the Knowledge of God's Righteousness
- Thread starter ezrider
- Start date
I could post just as many telling how God hates evil.
If you ever care to really discuss the OT, it could be by PM.
Not to derail this thread...
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
You got it!
The broken bone is from satan.
The healing is from God.
A broken bone is not a good thing.
If you don't know God, you get mad and curse it.
If you know God, you look to Him for strength to bear the pain and you might even learn something from it.
Again, I post Romans 8:28.
Wondering
daninthelionsden
Member
Reading all sides, it is a perplexing topic and I still come to the conclusion...I dunno. This reminds me of the story of Job and one Bible commentator's reply to all the arguments as to why Job suffered..."This a where the meager understanding of man meets the Wisdom of God". Myself, I throw up my hands and it reminds me of a line in a song..."And if I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know".
ezrider
Member
It is not that we need God's grace for the sake of grace alone, so that you might know God's mercy. Grace abounds all the more for the Spirit working your heart and mind. Grace does not abound for you sins, Grace abounds because of your sins. Because of your sins, grace abounds the more so that we might come to know and grow in the knowledge of the righteousness God in Christ.
The knowledge of the righteousness of God that can only be reveal through Faith. The topic of the OP.
ezrider
Member
It's late and I have just finished a very long day at work. I'll give it a look tomorrow or over the weekend.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Carry on my wayward son.
Jethro Bodine
Member
But you said this:
A warm breeze is good.
A hurricane is bad.
Bad is evil.
Something is either good or evil - there is no in between.
I choose good or I choose bad.
Good is on the side of God.
Bad is on the side of satan.
Nothing in the middle of the two.
You're walking toward God or you're walking toward satan and damnation.
What is not good is evil.
God brings good. Satan brings evil.
And yet you say having a bone reset is from God. That contradicts what you just said above. A hurricane is bad.
Bad is evil.
Something is either good or evil - there is no in between.
I choose good or I choose bad.
Good is on the side of God.
Bad is on the side of satan.
Nothing in the middle of the two.
You're walking toward God or you're walking toward satan and damnation.
What is not good is evil.
God brings good. Satan brings evil.
Your judgment of good and bad is shortsighted. Something that feels bad is not categorically evil and of satan. Bad (from our perspective) comes from God, too. God's bad tasting medicine that he administers for this disease called sin is a good thing, but you are saying it's a bad thing because it doesn't feel good and, therefore, by definition comes from satan.
Look at the 'bad' that Hebrews says the Father is careful to administer to his children:
"5and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,
“MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD,
NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;
6FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES,
AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.”
7It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
(Hebrews 12:5-7 NASB)
Now look at the 'good' that it actually is:
"He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness.11All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
12Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble, 13and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed."
(Hebrews 12:10-13 NASB)
I don't like being disciplined any more than the next guy/gal, but the truth is the truth: God's good doesn't feel so good, but it's still good, and from God, nonetheless.
We have to be careful. We live in a spoiled, affluent society that insists that anything that feels bad is evil and must be done away with. For as conservative as the church is, that liberal attitude is rampant in the church. While we are trying to be healthy and wealthy through God, God is trying to make us holy and content. We use God to get carnal gain, but God has an agenda of spiritual gain despite the abundance of our teachers who teach us to use God to get what we want. Nothing wrong with wanting healings, etc. But the path to that healing is through God's 'bad', but 'good', discipline. We have to accept that as much as we accept the healing itself.
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GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Not at home. Will write later.
I know the lesson of how evil could feel good and good could feel bad.
I said the HEALING was from God, not the broken bone.
To be cont'd...
Jethro Bodine
Member
Like resetting a broken bone, healing hurts. But you said 'bad' is from satan.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Do I have to scold you like those guys that change the meaning of my words??
Where's Zena?
Wondering
Jethro Bodine
Member
You said this:
Do I have to scold you like those guys that change the meaning of my words??
Where's Zena?
Wondering
Where does the pain of healing and discipline from God fit into what you said here?
You seem to have a too narrow and shortsighted definition of 'good and bad'. That's why you think 'bad' can not come from God.
Me gots the feeling Jimmy Swaggart falls on the 'all things bad are from satan' side, right?
I don't think even Joel Osteen believes that.
Even having a 'prosperity gospel lite' belief system (which I think Swaggart has) will cause a person to reject God's hurtful discipline as being evil and, therefore, to be resisted. It's because that hurt is not recognized as the purposeful actions of God himself. No thanks to a rich and affluent church that thinks God is here to make us healthy and wealthy, in the worldly point of view, as if that's what life consists of (Christ said it does not).
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GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
OK. I'm home and can deal with the above.
HOW could you think I'm of the prosperity gospel???
Let's just start from the beginning. This is an important topic.
Some on these threads tell me I don't have enough faith because I'm sick or my husband is sick or whatever.
They say that God is MY servant and I should pray and He'll just do everything that I want as long as I have enough faith.
This can be verified with scripture, of course. Ask and ye shall receive, etc.
Mark 11:24
John 15:7
James 15:16
Then we have other posters who tell me that God causes me harm so I could learn something. As you said in your post no. 127.
Hebrews 12:5-7
You cannot have it both ways. Which is it?
It's neither one. God is sovereign and He will have His way, not what we want, but what He wants. If He wants us to heal, we will,
If it's time to go home, we will not heal. HE is in command, NOT what I may want or not want - no matter how much I pray for it.
We receive what we ask for when it's in accordance with His will.
1 John 5:14
Jesus prayed constantly. Not for what HE wanted, but that He may do the §Father's will. He prayed for people to come to know God, He prayed for their strength and for their ability to see the "Light", which is Christ.
You cannot deny that God is all good, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.
You cannot deny that the God of the O.T. and the N.T. is the same God.
You cannot deny that Jesus represented God Father to us as a good God.
If all this is true, then it must be true that evil does not come from God.
So let's get straight that good comes from God - not evil.
Evil comes from satan - no good comes from satan.
We like to use a family as an example to understand God. I do this too. Jesus used the parable of The Prodigal Son to explain how we are to God, as children. But we should not assume that God is like an earthly father in essence and nature. We cannot fathom how God is. We can only use our finite minds to TRY to understand Him, and so we use examples that will always fall short of His glory.
I have not misspoken in anything I've said.
The broken bone analogy:
You fall and break a bone.
Do you suppose God made you fall?
Certainly not.
A broken bone is an evil, it comes from the influence of satan.
The bone will be set and will heal.
The HEALING is of God.
The healing is good - good comes from God.
So what about the versus about God punishing us?
Two examples:
1. There have been many earthquakes here. A priest went on a Christian radio station and said this was due to sin and is a punishment from God. The Vatican was very upset with him and denounced his words. God, who has given me free will to sin, will then punish innocent children because I exercise that right? Nonsense. There are earthakes because nature has been infected with the sin nature just as we have.
Romans 8:20-22
2. Aids: When the HIV virus was first discovered back in the 80's, it was said by some pastors that it was punishment from God due to SS relations. A direct punishment. Instead it was an effect of one of God's laws that was broken. When one of God's laws are broken there are Always consequences. Aids is a consequence of not adhering to God's laws.
Jesus left and sent the Holy Spirit. To guide us, to convict us, to be our paraclete. It is not necessary for God to break bones in order to teach us something.
Wondering
Jim Parker
Member
Actually: "...that we might come to know and grow in the knowledge of the GRACE and LOVE of God in Christ." and the sweetness of the Holy Spirit.
Taste and see that the Lord is good. (Psa 34:8)
Jethro Bodine
Member
There's a good chance you're what I call 'prosperity gospel lite'. It's a not so radical form of the prosperity gospel. It seems most Christians are that.
I think you mean one person on this thread says that, right?
Well, that person may be wrong. They probably can't say with certainty why a person is suffering.
Yes, me and David said that:
"71It is good for me that I was afflicted,
That I may learn Your statutes.
75... And that in faithfulness You have afflicted me."
(Psalm 119:71,75 NASB)
And you can not deny that when God sets the proverbial broken bone in us, it stinkin' hurts....and it's from him! He's doing it because he wants us healed, not disabled (Hebrews 12:5-13 NASB).
But when the healing is losing your house in a hurricane, or getting cancer, or losing your job, it's impossible to then say evil does not come from God:
"He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness.11All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness." (Hebrews 12:10-11 NASB italics in original, bold and underline mine)
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ezrider
Member
Like the dew upon the tender grass, so soft falls the latter rain. It is good that we should seek the Lord, but it will be bad if it is the knowledge evil you seek instead. I trust in the Lord. I trust not in my own understanding, but I trust in the revelation of Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit. If fact, my trust in the Lord is so strong, I no longer need a sacrifice for my sins. But that is My FAITH. You can take it for what you will.
But as to your "Actually" in response to my comment; it was actually in reference to.....
2 Peter 3:13-18
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
ezrider
Member
I didn't respond because I did not want the topic to become about homosexuality. It was a question I asked in reference to what makes it evil. You answered with what you believe, and that all I was asking for. But now that you asked my opinion, I would have to disagree with the notion of natural law that you present. While I understand your point about natural law, you brought it down to the family level and what we see society as accepting, or rather not accepting. But what you use to identify this practice as evil still bears the evidence of religious moral influence over those societies. I believe bath houses where readily prevalent and accepted in the ancient Greek and Roman empires. But that is neither here nor there, and is not the point.
If I were to look at nature, and natures law, then I would see that not every member of a species is required to procreate in order for the species to survive. Natural selection is evident in nature. So stripping all else aside. Leave out God, and leave out the influence of society and religion: And consider only two consenting adults. If two consenting adults engage in a homosexual act, what makes it evil? What offense does it give TO YOU that you should judge it evil?
smaller
Member
There is always a lot of banter and excuses for God when it comes to the subject of "evil."
A far simpler and easier exercise in reason is to start from the TOP and work our way down.
From the Top, meaning God, far above anything we can actually "conceive." The Creator is a unique/special observation in these matters. Do we have anything in creation we can actually "compare" the Creator to? Uh, no.
God Is Eternally Perfect. Even trying to "equate" God to a human morality is a slur.
So, there Is The Top.
Now, set all other 'created things' under Eternal Perfection. Are not all created things categorically LESS than The Creator? Of course! Even the "sum" of all created things still can not equal or be set beside The Creator as a comparison matter. Everything we'd set beside The Creator still will not COMPARE.
What we are dealing with in all of creation are "things" that are categorically LESS THAN The Creator.
Everyone have this simple lesson in mind yet?
So, when it comes to anything or even all things, all LESS THAN THE CREATOR.
Is the power of evil, obviously a "less" than The Creator situation, some fantastic leap of logic when all things or the sum of all things are going to be categorically LESS than The Creator in any cases of measures?
We quite falsely think that because God is some moral human equivalent on steroids that God can't create the power of evil. What we FAIL to consider is Gods Overwhelming Superiority to anything/all things.
Just as strong a case can be made that "evil" is a covering that is put upon us all to keep us from seeing the Overwhelming Glory of God, without which we may not even be able to survive in the state we are in.
Ultimately God MUST be Eternally Merciful in order for any "thing" less than His Own Eternal Perfect Self to even exist. Which is the larger point.
We should start by giving a LOT more respect to The Creator. Everything else falls into place from having a larger perspective of our Creator in mind.
Is Gods Eternal Mercy for example, greater than the temporary power of evil? I would say, easily, that there is no possible comparison between these. One Is Part of Gods Own Eternal Character, the other, a petty little temporary power that Gods Own Power could knock aside in a nanosecond.
Ecclesiastes 3:11
He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
A far simpler and easier exercise in reason is to start from the TOP and work our way down.
From the Top, meaning God, far above anything we can actually "conceive." The Creator is a unique/special observation in these matters. Do we have anything in creation we can actually "compare" the Creator to? Uh, no.
God Is Eternally Perfect. Even trying to "equate" God to a human morality is a slur.
So, there Is The Top.
Now, set all other 'created things' under Eternal Perfection. Are not all created things categorically LESS than The Creator? Of course! Even the "sum" of all created things still can not equal or be set beside The Creator as a comparison matter. Everything we'd set beside The Creator still will not COMPARE.
What we are dealing with in all of creation are "things" that are categorically LESS THAN The Creator.
Everyone have this simple lesson in mind yet?
So, when it comes to anything or even all things, all LESS THAN THE CREATOR.
Is the power of evil, obviously a "less" than The Creator situation, some fantastic leap of logic when all things or the sum of all things are going to be categorically LESS than The Creator in any cases of measures?
We quite falsely think that because God is some moral human equivalent on steroids that God can't create the power of evil. What we FAIL to consider is Gods Overwhelming Superiority to anything/all things.
Just as strong a case can be made that "evil" is a covering that is put upon us all to keep us from seeing the Overwhelming Glory of God, without which we may not even be able to survive in the state we are in.
Ultimately God MUST be Eternally Merciful in order for any "thing" less than His Own Eternal Perfect Self to even exist. Which is the larger point.
We should start by giving a LOT more respect to The Creator. Everything else falls into place from having a larger perspective of our Creator in mind.
Is Gods Eternal Mercy for example, greater than the temporary power of evil? I would say, easily, that there is no possible comparison between these. One Is Part of Gods Own Eternal Character, the other, a petty little temporary power that Gods Own Power could knock aside in a nanosecond.
Ecclesiastes 3:11
He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Hi EZ,
I cut out your first pp for the reasons you stated within it.
However I did want to reply to the above.
It seems as though you understand Natural Law to be the law of nature. It's not the Law of Nature.
Natural law (lat. ius naturale, lex naturalis) is a philosophy that certain rights or values are inherent by virtue of human nature and can be universally understood through human reason. Historically, natural law refers to the use of reason to analyze both social and personal human nature to deduce binding rules of moral behavior. [The law of nature, as it is determined by nature, is universal.[1]]
[Law of Nature:]Within metaphysics, there are two competing theories of Laws of Nature. On one account, the Regularity Theory, Laws of Nature are statements of the uniformities or regularities in the world; they are mere descriptions of the way the world is. On the other account, the Necessitarian Theory, Laws of Nature are the "principles" which govern the natural phenomena of the world. That is, the natural world "obeys" the Laws of Nature. This seemingly innocuous difference marks one of the most profound gulfs within contemporary philosophy, and has quite unexpected, and wide-ranging, implications.
You say to leave out God and leave out the Natural Law and then tell you why the topic would be evil.
So what you want me to do is say that we're living out in a vacuum somewhere all alone with no one else in sight, including God who created everything, including the Natural Law. Just these two people.
Talk about hypothetical questions!!
If a tree falls in the forest and there's no one around to hear it, does it make a noise?
It's still evil because it's easy to see that the parts don't fit.
Some things are inherently wrong.
Wondering
ezrider
Member
There is a logical conclusion if you would play along. Yes, in a vacuum. You are the judge. How do you rule upon the hypothetical?
Jim Parker
Member
You cannot "strip out God."
God IS and there is no escape from that reality.
Nature without God is not a reality.
So considering such a scenario is nonsense.
And, therefore you question: "What offense does it give TO YOU that you should judge it evil?" is irrelevant. There is no correlation to your imaginary situation in reality.
Your question is the babbling of one who has lost tough with reality.
God said it is evil.
That's all you need to know.