Faith AND Works-James 2...Again

[warhorse]

This is a discussion of James 2:14-25. I will give a brief exegesis of the verses and I look forward to many comments.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
(James (RSV) 2)

You will immediately notice that what James is talking about is FAITH. Not a lack of faith, not a "said faith", in which the hypothetical "man" merely says he has faith but really doesn't. "Can his faith save him?" is the question, not "Can the man merely SAYING he has faith, save him?"

James is talking about FAITH. He goes on with an example of how having faith without works doesn't "profit".

If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. (James (RSV) 2)

Again, "faith". Not a man saying he has faith, but really not having it. What can this mean, but what the words actually say, that "FAITH, if it has no works, is dead"? Twisting the words with an adjective to mean "a person who merely SAYS he has faith, but really doesn't" is damaging the plain words of Scripture.

But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." (James (RSV) 2)

This verse ALWAYS gets glossed over by the "faith alone" crowd, yet is important to show the context of what he is actually arguing. Using an antonym is a good teaching tool.

Notice this is the OPPOSITE of what was argued in verses 14-17, which presented the scenario that "I have faith, you have works". James asks what profit is there if a man has faith and no works, verse 15 argues that the OTHER EXTREME IS ALSO MISGUIDED.

In verse 14; a man says he has faith and has no works. In verse 18; a "someone" says he has works, but has no faith. If you think that James is talking about a "said faith" in verse 14, then it stands to reason he is talking about "said works" in verse 18. Does this really make sense?

Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. (James (RSV) 2)

Faith AND works, not faith alone (14-17), not works alone (v. 18), but faith and works together. This is what "profits".

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder. (James (RSV) 2)


Even demons have rudimentary faith, yet it can't save them. This is an extreme example to prove his point, that faith without works, even though it's still faith, does not profit. As he goes on...

Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? (James (RSV) 2)

Now an example...

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; (James (RSV) 2)

So, after reading the above, I have a question. Was Abraham "justified by works"? It's a simple yes or no question. Let's read it again:






Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

Yes or no. No twisting of the words of Scripture to suit a "faith alone" heresy. I believe the plain words of Scripture that say:



"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works..." How about you?

Faith is active along WITH his works and faith completed BY his works. So, according to James, "completed faith" justifies, incomplete faith, even though it's still faith, does not. As in the example in verses 15-16, if you refuse to show charity to others, even though you have faith, it does not profit, does NOT JUSTIFY. If the "man" in verse 14 refuses to act charitably to his "ill-clad" neighbor, will he still be justified, even though he has faith? The obvious answer is NO.

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James (RSV) 2)

"YOU SEE..." What was James getting at with the example of Abraham? "





That a man is justified by works and not by faith alone".

Another question: Is man justified by faith alone or by works? Reading the plain words of Scripture, the answer is obvious to anyone over the age of seven.

And James is not done...

And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? (James (RSV) 2)

"AND IN THE SAME WAY..." The same way as Abraham, by faith and works.

Another question. How was Rahab the harlot justified? Another no-brainer.

And finally, the conclusion...

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. (James (RSV) 2)

Again, not "said faith", not "a faith that claims to be real, but isn't". FAITH, if it has no works, does NOT justify. Pretty simple and straight forward.

I didn't go into too much detail on purpose. I hope for many differing views, and a lively debate.

So works is the evidence of said faith. Genuine faith will always bear itself out in works. But works alone does not save as we can have works without faith. Additionally one must take into account the leval of maturity in a christian, i e the faith of a newborne christian will manifest itself somewhat differantly than that of a mature christian. In a newborn there will be a strong desire for change and learning of Gods words and ways, focused mainly on there own maturing process. Whereas mature christians should be past that for the most part focused on reaching the lost, and discipling the newborns.

 

[Sam21]

James can be a book that can cause some to stumble if they are not careful. First, at a glance James seems to be contradicting Paul,Paul made it plain that we are justified and kept justified by faith in Christ sacrifice alone and that confidence(faith) in any work could actually cause us to fall from the grace of God that we walk in. Paul and James both use Abraham, Paul saying that Abraham was justified by faith without works and James saying that Abraham was justified by faith and his works. Any study of James should have what Paul taught about faith included for clarity. James starts his writing on faith with IF A MAN SAY, those four words are being ignored by many,James is speaking of a person who declares faith in Christ BUT DOES NOT HAVE FAITH IN CHRIST. James uses simple obvious examples that demonstrate what faith in God will do,and he calls those actions works, and because he calls them works a whole false doctrine of justification by faith and works has grown up. We are justified and kept by faith in God and Christ,real faith produces actions(works)and our faith is played out in our actions,an action that is the product of our faith is accepted not because of the action but because it was a demonstration of our faith. It is a dangerous thing to begin to believe that we are doing some work that is making us acceptable to God. Example,if God actually told you to give someone some money and you did,it was your faith in God that caused you to act and God accepts your obedience because it was faith in God, the act of giving money itself is not accepted by God for that would mean that God accepts our works as a justifier,God accepts our faith in Christ,nothing else.

 

[dadof10]

What do you mean when you say that Abraham was justified 3 times?

This is a good concise explanation, and not too long.

The topic of justification is one that is understood in different ways by various denominations. The classic verse used by Evangelicals to show justification is a one-time process and it is by faith alone is Rom. 4:3, “Abraham believed (had faith) God and it was credited to him as righteousness.†This verse implies Abraham placed his faith in God and he was justified – a one-time event. From then on, Abraham was justified because of faith, and faith alone. This was reference to Gen. 15:6 in the life of Abraham and it was a time when Abraham was justified. Faith leads to righteousness by justification.


But is this the only time Abraham was justified? Let’s see what Scriptures say.


Heb. 11:8 says, “By faith Abraham obeyed (God) when he was called to go out to a place to receive as an inheritance ….†The next several verses all talk about Abraham’s faith and how he trusted God because of his belief in Him. This passage references Gen. 12:1-4 where Abram, before his name was changed, already placed his faith in God and followed Him. In time, this event was about 10 years before what was described in Gen. 15:6. Scriptures tell us that Abraham already had saving faith in Gen. 12. So, because of his faith and obedience to God, Abraham, using the definition of justification in Rom. 4:4, already received justification in Gen. 12 because he had faith.


James 2:21 says, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?†Again, as it says in the next few passages, Abraham was justified because of what he did by being obedient to his faith. In this case offering his son to God was cause for justification. James 2:24 sums it up, when he says, “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.â€


Romans 4:3 states, faith is absolutely required to be justified, but so, too, is obedience to God as other passages of the Bible state.
So, the Bible says Abraham was justified when, 1) he had saving faith as Paul described in Hebrews referring to Gen. 12:1-4, 2) when he demonstrated faith in Romans 4:3 referring to Gen. 15:6 which was about 10 years later than the first time, and 3) again when James referred to Abraham being justified once again when he offered his son as a sacrifice (Gen. 22:9) which was later date.


Doesn’t the Bible tell us Abraham was justified at least three different times by God by practicing both faith and obedience?

The Bible tells us that:

Justification is a process and not an one-time event
Justification is a result of faith and obedience


http://www.catholicdigitalstudio.com/abrahamjustification.htm


So, what do you think? Is this enough to make you rethink your view on justification being a one-time event?

 

[dadof10]

Well, believing from the heart that the sacrifice of Christ has made you acceptable to God is saving faith, and continuing to believe that Christ sacrifice is making you acceptable to God is faithfulness(works).

Sam, I don't see anywhere in Scripture or Tradition where works are defined as "continuing to believe". James gives us three examples of good works (what you are calling "faithfulness") in Chapter 2, and none of them are "continuing to believe". Certainly ONGOING faith is necessary for our works to, as James says, "profit", but "works" is obviously something different from faith to James.

We simply cannot DO things that make us acceptable to God.

I agree, if you add "without faith". With faith, and ONLY with faith, can we do works that "profit".

I see James as simply admonishing christians to have the right kind of faith, a simple test that something is wrong with your faith would be the example of James of not actually helping a brother or sister in need.

The text doesn't bear this out. This is the standard Protestant rebuttal to James' plain words and, to put it as kindly as possible, is misguided.

We are saved to do good works,however there is danger in believing that God is accepting us because of a good work,we were accepted at conversion because of faith in Christ sacrifice, and we continue to be accepted because we continue to practice faith in Christ sacrifice.

This sounds to me like you are leaning toward justification as an ongoing process. Am I reading you right? If not, what do you mean by "continue to practice faith..."?

Abraham was not saved by good works,Abraham was saved because of faith in God and because he had true faith in God he was faithful(James called it works).

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. (James (RSV) 2)

He was justified by works, those are the exact words of James. His faith was active with his works, which makes them able to "profit". Without faith, works are NOTHING.

Again, "faith in God" is not what James calls "works". Works are separate from TRUE faith. We know this because Abraham had true faith and was still justified by his works.

I think a good point was made by the brother that said that the WORKS attributed to Abraham was his faithfulness that was a natural product of his correct faith.

True enough, but that's not the point. the question is, "do works done in faith JUSTIFY?". James' answer is a resounding "Yes!"

 

[dadof10]

Works I believe is what we do with the gifts that God has given us.....

But if we FAIL to do them, does it affect our salvation? That's the question...

 

[smaller]

But if we FAIL to do them, does it affect our salvation? That's the question...

Why any believer would question the eternal fate of another believer is an evil work imho. No man is another mans Eternal Judge 'to their detriment.' In many christian sects, using that stick is a form of spiritual bullying.

That measure belongs in Gods Hands Alone.

Romans 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

When we doubt mans ability, we would always doubt for every believer, but that measure is 'personal only.'

The fact that 'if' Gods Abilities for believers are clearly on the table above, 'then' measures of man and measures of God are also on the table. (if then reasoning applied to spiritual matters)

Faith works through Love. Some may dare call it 'love' to cast doubt on the eternal fate of another believer. I call it manipulation and bullying because that is what it is.

I do not doubt Gods Ability to make any believer stand. Some may claim doubt upon the man, but that is not the measure.

There is exactly zero recording in the N.T. of a single believer, eternally lost. Therefore it is a contrivance of men. I call such actions the actions of wolves in sheep cloth.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[jasoncran]

the son of perdition cant come except there be falling away first.

that implies men and women can and do walk away from the lord,sadly. you must have been in the faith to fall away from it.

 

[smaller]

the son of perdition cant come except there be falling away first.

that implies men and women can and do walk away from the lord,sadly. you must have been in the faith to fall away from it.

One can certainly fall victim to Satan in this present life and become (again) blinded.

This means zero in regards to a believers 'eternal fate.' Such are fallen warriors.

Christianity is filled with fallen warriors of many sorts. Believers who seek to promote eternal annhilation of their own fallen compatriots of faith would not seem too cool to me, and I generally avoid 'believers' who carry such measures as I don't trust them. Such are usually 'very' secure in their own justifications and apt to severely judge everyone else.

Why anyone would seek that upon another believer is beyond me. It is a deep burden of darkness in such hearts to carry such things. The holders only harm themselves in such measures.

s

 

[jasoncran]

One can certainly fall victim to Satan in this present life and become (again) blinded.

This means zero in regards to a believers 'eternal fate.' Such are fallen warriors.

Christianity is filled with fallen warriors of many sorts. Believers who seek to promote eternal annhilation of their own fallen compatriots of faith would not seem too cool to me, and I generally avoid 'believers' who carry such measures as I don't trust them. Such are usually 'very' secure in their own justifications and apt to severely judge everyone else.

Why anyone would seek that upon another believer is beyond me. It is a deep burden of darkness in such hearts to carry such things. The holders only harm themselves in such measures.

s

i am not judging man when i state this. its tween them and God. agian let me ask you this? do you believe in freewill?

if not then why do you buy eternal security? that implies the receipent doesnt have a choice anymore he gave up his right to deny god and will go to heaven no matter what sins he does.

now i know the calvinists here dont teach that. they teach it this way that God will keep the soul he saves but they teach it rather that God will ultimately draw you back.

that implies no will of the believer. i am arminist and i dont buy calvins idea of predestening souls to heaven or hell. sure its hard to walk away from God but there are stern warning on such things.

would would the writers of hebrews state such and also peter if its not possible?

again you come across as that its all satans fault that God will save all men.

God doesnt save all men. for narrow is the way and few there be that find it.wide is the way to destruction.its on men once god reaveals himself to repent.

 

[smaller]

i am not judging man when i state this. its tween them and God.

If it's between them and God, why would you take on the task? No sinner is equipped to eternally judge to another persons detriment, period. There is simply no justification in the N.T. to perform that task. We are to believe the best for our fellow believers, and to hope for the best for them as well, period.

agian let me ask you this? do you believe in freewill?

No. I cannot logically rule out The Will of God working in conjunction with any person, nor can I logically rule out the will of the devil, also working therein. In the light of the other wills, the freewill doctrine is yet another contrived fantasy that is used primarily to belittle and to condemn other people and to 'self' justify the 'right decision makers.' My faith does not reside upon making the supposed 'right' decision, but upon what The God of all creation did at the cross. There is and never was any excuse available for me by my own actions. I am a partaker in what God has done. Nothing more.

if not then why do you buy eternal security?

I have every right to believe in The Total Sufficiency of God in Christ. Believers who would cast doubt on me or any other believer certainly have that right. They should also take a close look at themselves first, and then see where they got the 'right' in the N.T. to disperse other believers to eternal fire or annihilation. There is no such measures provided to any believer in the text. So I say, why would one even seek such a thing upon another believer. It makes no sense to me whatsoever.

And we also know that it is God who judges those outside the church. So again do the math. I am not God. Neither are you.

that implies the receipent doesnt have a choice anymore he gave up his right to deny god and will go to heaven no matter what sins he does.

Do you really think you and you alone had a choice when you were an unbeliever, when 'this will' was upon your own mind?

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

With the above, I certainly understand the present dilemma of the unbelievers, and certainly do not see 'them alone' as it pertains to their own minds when Satan is flat out blinding them.

It is my joy to share, but it is not my call as to whom God allows to see. I heard the Gospel many times in many ways before The Light dawned for me, personally. There came a time for me in this present life 'by God.' I am grateful, and do not use my present vision for condemning spiritually blinded people or 'excusing' my own ineffectiveness to turn them based on their blinded minds...

Paul planted, Apollos watered, but it remains God who provides the increase.

now i know the calvinists here dont teach that. they teach it this way that God will keep the soul he saves but they teach it rather that God will ultimately draw you back.

I sympathize with many determinist positions, and I sympathize with many freewill positions. I cannot however go entirely with all of them. Both positions have many basic faults of reasoning on the spiritual level.

that implies no will of the believer.

A blinded will is what it is. I cannot in good faith say that God could not help them if He Desired to do so.

I also believe that blindness in believers (in part) is a perpetual condition of vacillation in many forms. Even Paul admitted that he only saw in part. That is part of the humble pie we must all partake in if we desire to be truthful within ourselves. None of us are all 'only Light' at least at the present time.

The question then becomes a part of this thread. What constitutes a believer? The RCC for example has long held that God does not condemn people for 'good works' even if they've never heard the Gospel, or if they did hear, they didn't understand. I agree with that position wholeheartedly.

i am arminist and i dont buy calvins idea of predestening souls to heaven or hell. sure its hard to walk away from God but there are stern warning on such things.

How one understands any form of judgments is somewhat voided if they don't have all the parties on the table for understandings. There are many preachers whom we could look at and say, wow, those people are manipulating deceivers who are milking their masses strictly for the cash. But I still believe that God uses even deceitful and lying preachers to do His Own Deal with individuals. So who am I to say? I just can't sit under a lot of sectarian preachings for myself, largely because of their imposed requirements to sit in Gods Seat to the detriment of others. That just can't be my thing. My conscience requires me to bypass that effort.

would would the writers of hebrews state such and also peter if its not possible?

I believe every Word of God applies to my ears on both sides of the ledgers, yeah, even the bad parts. I know unto whom to attribute the bad side and do not want to be enslaved by that working. Few believers understand this.

again you come across as that its all satans fault that God will save all men.

You know full well that discussing loving all our neighbors is not allowed here, so why bait me?

God doesnt save all men.

Never said He does. But on many levels even our terms will be different.

I do adamantly believe that every vessel of dishonour will be in the Lake of Fire forever and ever, period. And I also believe every vessel of honor will be saved, even if they were temporarily blinded in their present life. Do the math from there.

for narrow is the way and few there be that find it.wide is the way to destruction.its on men once god reaveals himself to repent.

Imho, those who seek to destroy their fellow believers have certainly found the path that leads to destruction by their own lips. Funny how that works in people who think they have found the path of life. The opposite is their factual case from their own statements. It's called 'self' justification. A method that Jesus hated. But He tolerated such things at the time.

Luke 10:29
But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. The man who says the truth in his own heart, that I am a sinner not worthy, went to his home, justified. Chest beating of self justification is one measure to tell a phony.

There is no excuse for me, period. All of my hopes are pinned upon God in Christ alone. He Is Able.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[jasoncran]

i will answer with my testimony.

when i came to christ this is how it happened.

i would walk to burger king at 7 am every morning and hear God say when will you surrender to me?i would say i am not worthy. he would respond and say just come to me and i will be enough or to that effect. i said no lord. and each day till the call of me going to jail for bad check.

its then when i got on my knees and asked God to fix jason and that i cant live right and i am sick of the messed up life i had and so on.

i went to church a few times before these events and even read a bible while at work on break.

now then unto the ultimate insult to God.
while i was going to church i met a man who was a crossdresser, being that i was naive and i aslo lonely. i wasnt aware of the nature of his gender indenty confusion, and i also had male impulses so i acted on that.

i felt that when christians condemned the acts of the lbgt this anger, yet that happened once. i would go to chruch and the alter and God would tell me that sin you are in is wrong repent! the longer i didnt answer the more this hatred of God started to grow.

a muslim friend knew of my sin and told his mother a christian. she called me and rebuked me and had me read romans 1 . i then repented.

this was a month after my first prayer. now then unless you want to argue that the first prayer wasnt sincere. your case isnt much. i know that i meant that but i wasnt healed of my bi nature. as of that time it didnt rear its head. so either i wasnt saved when i prayed that prayer the first time or the devil did decieve me and i choose to walk away.

god was warning me the whole time the pastor never knew that is what i went through and i knew being gay was a sin from my jw days.


therefore i was without an excuse. by Gods mercy i was forgiven.

yes i do believe that i have choice not to repent.

let me ask you this.

are there unborn babies in hell? who didnt have a chance to live on this earth and sin after all God chooses not to save some men.

i have heard from others calvinists saying that from others and i have doubts but if God predestines men to hell or heaven then that is possible.

 

[smaller]

let me ask you this.

are there unborn babies in hell? who didnt have a chance to live on this earth and sin after all God chooses not to save some men.

i have heard from others calvinists saying that from others and i have doubts but if God predestines men to hell or heaven then that is possible.

Many believers are blinded by Satan to the basics of faith:

Mark 10:14
But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

 

[tjw]

This is a good concise explanation, and not too long.

The topic of justification is one that is understood in different ways by various denominations. The classic verse used by Evangelicals to show justification is a one-time process and it is by faith alone is Rom. 4:3, “Abraham believed (had faith) God and it was credited to him as righteousness.†This verse implies Abraham placed his faith in God and he was justified – a one-time event. From then on, Abraham was justified because of faith, and faith alone. This was reference to Gen. 15:6 in the life of Abraham and it was a time when Abraham was justified. Faith leads to righteousness by justification.


But is this the only time Abraham was justified? Let’s see what Scriptures say.


Heb. 11:8 says, “By faith Abraham obeyed (God) when he was called to go out to a place to receive as an inheritance ….†The next several verses all talk about Abraham’s faith and how he trusted God because of his belief in Him. This passage references Gen. 12:1-4 where Abram, before his name was changed, already placed his faith in God and followed Him. In time, this event was about 10 years before what was described in Gen. 15:6. Scriptures tell us that Abraham already had saving faith in Gen. 12. So, because of his faith and obedience to God, Abraham, using the definition of justification in Rom. 4:4, already received justification in Gen. 12 because he had faith.


James 2:21 says, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?†Again, as it says in the next few passages, Abraham was justified because of what he did by being obedient to his faith. In this case offering his son to God was cause for justification. James 2:24 sums it up, when he says, “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.â€


Romans 4:3 states, faith is absolutely required to be justified, but so, too, is obedience to God as other passages of the Bible state.
So, the Bible says Abraham was justified when, 1) he had saving faith as Paul described in Hebrews referring to Gen. 12:1-4, 2) when he demonstrated faith in Romans 4:3 referring to Gen. 15:6 which was about 10 years later than the first time, and 3) again when James referred to Abraham being justified once again when he offered his son as a sacrifice (Gen. 22:9) which was later date.


Doesn’t the Bible tell us Abraham was justified at least three different times by God by practicing both faith and obedience?

The Bible tells us that:

Justification is a process and not an one-time event
Justification is a result of faith and obedience


http://www.catholicdigitalstudio.com/abrahamjustification.htm


So, what do you think? Is this enough to make you rethink your view on justification being a one-time event?

Here is what I think... We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus alone. Saving faith will produce good works.

 

[jasoncran]

unborn as in aborted these never had chance outside the womb. some from what i hear say yes there are aborted babies in hell because knew that they would sin and let them go to hell.

its tenious to say that if God knows a man is going to sin and doesnt save them and lets them burn then babies are excluded. thats not consistent. so god isnt soveriegn? he doesnt know us before we were born?

the person who told me that has a point. i throw it out here not to inflame but just to see the reactions and what the justifications for and agaisnt that idea.

 

[dadof10]

So works is the evidence of said faith. Genuine faith will always bear itself out in works.

Always? If this were the case, why were these verses, and others like them, written? Why are BELIEVERS extolled throughout Scripture to DO good works? Where does Scripture teach us that good works are a necessary by-product of a true faith, and that the believer will ALWAYS do them?

But works alone does not save as we can have works without faith.

Agreed!

 

[reba]

Psa 22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
Psa 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Psa 127:3 Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


God knows the hairs on your head He knows who was conceived.

 

[jasoncran]

Psa 22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
Psa 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Psa 127:3 Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


God knows the hairs on your head He knows who was conceived.

ok then well i know your response as you know about the baby's death that i had to deal with.

there were no arrests made on that only that the couple were moved out as in eviction.

 

[reba]

To me? God saved that child from the hell of his parents!


Some one afraid of another Caylee Anthony?

 

[jasoncran]

To me? God saved that child from the hell of his parents!


Some one afraid of another Caylee Anthony?

it wasnt a case of child abuse. as i said none of them were arrested. i didnt get a call nor is it any crime scene sign or lock on the door stating this is a crime scene on the house.

oddly.

 

[dadof10]

James can be a book that can cause some to stumble if they are not careful. First, at a glance James seems to be contradicting Paul,Paul made it plain that we are justified and kept justified by faith in Christ sacrifice alone and that confidence(faith) in any work could actually cause us to fall from the grace of God that we walk in.

James and Paul do not contradict if PAUL'S use of the word "works" is taken in context. As I've posted many times before, if you do a word search in Paul's letters on the word "works" you will see that in EVERY CASE, except one, Paul is directly referring to works of the law (in the context of circumcision), not good works. The Protestant view takes the tack that Paul is referring to EVERYTHING done when he says "works". James, on the other hand, is referring directly to good works, not works of the law. I have yet to get a coherent argument against this position.

Paul and James both use Abraham, Paul saying that Abraham was justified by faith without works

Correct. Paul is saying that faith justified Abraham, not works of the law.

and James saying that Abraham was justified by faith and his works.

So, where do we disagree?

Any study of James should have what Paul taught about faith included for clarity.

OK, should any study of Paul have James included for clarity? I haven't heard this at all in Protestant circles, in fact I've never heard any Protestant say we must temper our study of "Paul's doctrine of faith alone" with "James' doctrine of faith and works", have you? Usually (always) Paul is studied in isolation to prove the a'priori doctrine of sola-fide.

James starts his writing on faith with IF A MAN SAY, those four words are being ignored by many,James is speaking of a person who declares faith in Christ BUT DOES NOT HAVE FAITH IN CHRIST.

Whoa there, Sam. James SAYS the man has faith. Also the example of Abraham should give you a clue as to the "kind" of faith he is speaking of throughout. Does Abraham have a "said" faith? Obviously not. So why does James say he is justified by his works and not by his faith alone?

James uses simple obvious examples that demonstrate what faith in God will do,and he calls those actions works, and because he calls them works a whole false doctrine of justification by faith and works has grown up.

Sorry, no. The doctrine that has "grown up" was the doctrine of sola-fide. That works affect our justification was believed by all of Christendom for 1500 years. The new, novel, heretical doctrine is the doctrine of sola-fide.

We are justified and kept by faith in God and Christ,real faith produces actions(works)and our faith is played out in our actions,an action that is the product of our faith is accepted not because of the action but because it was a demonstration of our faith.

Again, if we refuse to do these "works" does our rebellion affect our salvation?

It is a dangerous thing to begin to believe that we are doing some work that is making us acceptable to God. Example,if God actually told you to give someone some money and you did,it was your faith in God that caused you to act and God accepts your obedience because it was faith in God, the act of giving money itself is not accepted by God for that would mean that God accepts our works as a justifier,God accepts our faith in Christ,nothing else.

OK, good. So IF the person REFUSED to give the money, would it affect the person's salvation? Would his act of disobedience affect this SAVED person's justification?