Faith AND Works-James 2...Again

[dadof10]

Why any believer would question the eternal fate of another believer is an evil work imho. No man is another mans Eternal Judge 'to their detriment.' In many christian sects, using that stick is a form of spiritual bullying.

Smaller,

I'm not questioning n2thelight's "eternal fate", that's why I asked "But if WE fail to do them will it affect OUR salvation?" It is simply a generic question. You are misunderstanding me.

If you want to respond to something, why not answer the question? If we fail to do good works will it affect our salvation? Read James 2 then post your answer.

 

[dadof10]

Here is what I think... We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus alone. Saving faith will produce good works.

So the FACT that Abraham's justification was an ongoing lifelong process that included works which completed his faith doesn't sway you one way or another? Okey-doke.

 

[smaller]

Smaller,

I'm not questioning n2thelight's "eternal fate", that's why I asked "But if WE fail to do them will it affect OUR salvation?" It is simply a generic question. You are misunderstanding me.

If you want to respond to something, why not answer the question? If we fail to do good works will it affect our salvation? Read James 2 then post your answer.

Did you happen to find an example in the N.T. where a believer is going to fry alive forever for 'works failure?'

If so, feel free to direct me to a single named example.

s

 

[dadof10]

Did you happen to find an example in the N.T. where a believer is going to fry alive forever for 'works failure?'

If so, feel free to direct me to a single named example.

s

Can you find one example in any of my posts where I make that claim? Feel free to stop spamming on this thread.

 

[smaller]

Can you find one example in any of my posts where I make that claim? Feel free to stop spamming on this thread.

Spam claim? Please.

""But if WE fail to do them will it affect OUR salvation?"

feel free to clarify 'affect.'

Loss? Less rewards?

Big difference.

fwiw, there is no such record of eternal loss of salvation for insufficient works by a single believer, so don't waste yer time.

 

[Sam21]

James and Paul do not contradict if PAUL'S use of the word "works" is taken in context. As I've posted many times before, if you do a word search in Paul's letters on the word "works" you will see that in EVERY CASE, except one, Paul is directly referring to works of the law (in the context of circumcision), not good works. The Protestant view takes the tack that Paul is referring to EVERYTHING done when he says "works". James, on the other hand, is referring directly to good works, not works of the law. I have yet to get a coherent argument against this position.

Correct. Paul is saying that faith justified Abraham, not works of the law.

So, where do we disagree?

OK, should any study of Paul have James included for clarity? I haven't heard this at all in Protestant circles, in fact I've never heard any Protestant say we must temper our study of "Paul's doctrine of faith alone" with "James' doctrine of faith and works", have you? Usually (always) Paul is studied in isolation to prove the a'priori doctrine of sola-fide.
Whoa there, Sam. James SAYS the man has faith. Also the example of Abraham should give you a clue as to the "kind" of faith he is speaking of throughout. Does Abraham have a "said" faith? Obviously not. So why does James say he is justified by his works and not by his faith alone?

Sorry, no. The doctrine that has "grown up" was the doctrine of sola-fide. That works affect our justification was believed by all of Christendom for 1500 years. The new, novel, heretical doctrine is the doctrine of sola-fide.

Again, if we refuse to do these "works" does our rebellion affect our salvation?

OK, good. So IF the person REFUSED to give the money, would it affect the person's salvation? Would his act of disobedience affect this SAVED person's justification?

First,Abraham was BEFORE THE LAW ,so Abraham could not have been justified by the LAW anyway, the WORKS that Paul said that Abraham was not justified by, were the GOOD DEEDS that he did,not the law, for the law had not yet been given. Think please, if the works of the law(something given by God)cannot make us just before God, then how could our supposed "good works" make us just before God? Again,you are missing the most important part in James,the introduction...IF a man SAY he has faith. James is speaking of a false claim of faith that is demonstrated by lack of faithfulness in his actions(works). We are not saved by the twin powers of faith in Christ and our good works,God only accepts the works of Christ and He ONLY accepts us because of our faith in Christ. You are missing something,God ONLY accepts the works of Christ,so we can only be accepted by faith in the works of Christ.

 

[Sam21]

James begins his discourse with,IF a man SAY he has faith, this proves that James was questioning the mans supposed faith because of his lack of faithful actions,simple.

 

[Elijah674]

James begins his discourse with,IF a man SAY he has faith, this proves that James was questioning the mans supposed faith because of his lack of faithful actions,simple.

What good is a claimed faith that disobeys the Godhead, huh?? Man is saved only by a LOVING WORKING FAITH OF OBEDIENCE! In fact Acts 5:32 finds these false Gospel claims 'outside' of the Godhead! The Holy Spirit IS GIVEN TO THEM WHO OBEY HIM'! And ALL of the CONDITIONAL Word is INSPIRED BY HIM!


Can you imagine a person at the Sanctuary setting (Ps. 77:13) bringing his lamb (representing Christ's DEATH) claim of faith offering, (Heb. 11:13 were most all of the O.T.) and then killing it in faith, and instead of going forward in the REQUIRED COMMANDED SERVICE, (Rom. 8:1 to Rom. 8:14 & onward) but to just stop there & make the FATAL CLAIM... 'I AM SAVED BY FAITH ALONE'????????


Well, that is the false stuff that satan has sold to manny for well past the Striving Of The Holy Spirit for His Required Truth! And Obad. 1:16 will fill hell with such like ones false [KNOWN TEACHINGS]. And do not 2 Cor. 4:2 miss apply that remark! (forum) For there will be many saved from all walks of satan's error who LIVED IN OBEDIENT 'WORKING' FAITH as best as the [KNOWLEDGE] that the Holy Spirit had gave to them! Hosea 4:6 + Dan. 12:4 ='s Rev. 18:4!

And that false teaching for truth is just one of satan's false teachings!

--Elijah

 

[tjw]

So the FACT that Abraham's justification was an ongoing lifelong process that included works which completed his faith doesn't sway you one way or another? Okey-doke.

Abraham had saving faith and it was shown by his obeying God. Abraham believed God and did what God told him to do.

 

[Elijah674]

Abraham had saving faith and it was shown by his obeying God. Abraham believed God and did what God told him to do.

Correct you are!;)
He even was a Gentile SOUL WINNER in Gen. 12:5, huh! Long before any 'pedigree' Jew was brought on the scene.

And God even DOCUMENTS why he was called by the Godhead in Gen.26:5. See what God told Isaac from verse 1-5.

--Elijah

 

[dadof10]

Spam claim? Please.

Why any believer would question the eternal fate of another believer is an evil work imho. No man is another mans Eternal Judge 'to their detriment.' In many christian sects, using that stick is a form of spiritual bullying.

Faith works through Love. Some may dare call it 'love' to cast doubt on the eternal fate of another believer. I call it manipulation and bullying because that is what it is.

You're right. It's less spam and more Ad Hom. I don't understand the hostility toward the question "If we fail to do good works, does that affect our salvation?" How is this question any more "manipulating" or "bullying " than any other generic question about what exactly saves?

""But if WE fail to do them will it affect OUR salvation?"

feel free to clarify 'affect.'

Loss? Less rewards?

Big difference.

The things we do or fail to do affect ALL our relationships, why wouldn't they affect the ONLY relationship that really matters? Our sin could lead to loss of eternal Life, I never said differently because that's what Scripture and the Church teaches, James specifically.

fwiw, there is no such record of eternal loss of salvation for insufficient works by a single believer, so don't waste yer time.

This is a straw dog. I never made the claim that there is any "recording in the N.T. of a single believer, eternally lost". There is the hypothetical (?) "man" in James 2, who has faith and yet still has his salvation questioned, but an example is not necessary. Can you give me an example of a single person who Scripture says is totally depraved? Can you give me an example of a person who Jesus did NOT die for, as in "LIMITED atonement"? If you can't, does that mean these doctrines are not taught in Scripture? I can show you plenty of verses that teach a believer can lose his salvation, even though Scripture doesn't point to an example of someone who did. It's simply not needed to prove the doctrine.

 

[smaller]

You're right. It's less spam and more Ad Hom. I don't understand the hostility toward the question "If we fail to do good works, does that affect our salvation?" How is this question any more "manipulating" or "bullying " than any other generic question about what exactly saves?
The things we do or fail to do affect ALL our relationships, why wouldn't they affect the ONLY relationship that really matters? Our sin could lead to loss of eternal Life, I never said differently because that's what Scripture and the Church teaches, James specifically.

All I have to say on the bolded matter is to show one example where a 'believer' lost their eternal life period, regardless of the basis of works. Believers fall 'in battle' everyday with sin and no one stops sinning. Let me know 'if' you have performed adequately to the extent of ceasing to sin, starting with 'thoughts' of same.

This is a straw dog. I never made the claim that there is any "recording in the N.T. of a single believer, eternally lost".

But that is the bolded claim you make above. I simply ask for a single example of the transpiring in the text, and of course there is none.

On the other hand the scriptures are filled with rewards for doing even the simplest of works, such as providing a cool drink of water. The real question at the heart of works might seem to be would a single dire sin event offset a lifetime of good works? Believers really do vary greatly on this subject. Some people are in a constant state of flux regarding their eternal fate because they know their sin in mind betrays them and they constantly seek to eradicate that type of sin and they are never successful in a single instance.

Though I may applaud such efforts, there are reasons quite beyond their control for what happens within them. They just can't put their finger on 'why' that is.

There is the hypothetical (?) "man" in James 2, who has faith and yet still has his salvation questioned, but an example is not necessary. Can you give me an example of a single person who Scripture says is totally depraved?

I don't hold to the total depravity of man theory.

Look at it more reasonably and we might both agree?

Example?

When Satan spoke through Peter, at that moment Satan was-is and remains totally depraved. And Peter not. There you have a more accurate picture of total depravity. One is totally depraved, the other, not.

Same example could apply to Satan's entrance into Judas, Satan again being totally depraved and Judas a slave of same. Or even the devil that was put upon Paul, that devil, that evil being totally depraved and Paul not at all.

It then becomes a more accurate picture.

I would go on to say that sin in mind caused by the tempter, the devil, is a sin and the workings of total depravity in any persons mind. That does not make the person the same as the tempter, nor does it make the actions of thoughts therein the persons mind the thoughts of the person.

Now extend that working to 'good works.' If the presence of the tempter in mind is present with anyone even while they are doing good works, the person is accredited, and the tempter, not a bit. There is therefore perpetually, in everyone, two entirely different ways and measures of viewing everything.

Can you give me an example of a person who Jesus did NOT die for, as in "LIMITED atonement"?

I accept unlimited atonement for mankind and totally ineffective atonement for devils. Since the later operate actively 'in the minds' of all and every sin connected to same, I simply and honestly can not view any person as just they, themselves. Every Word of God applies to 'every person' and also 'what they carry within them' on the dark side of the ledgers. The tempter who I admit is active in my own mind remains under the curse of God at all times regardless of the evidence of 'external activity' of sin. I always try to keep that in mind as Those Words of His applied to that working are a DIRE REMINDER FROM GOD to keep same in check. I do not believe that God is going to burn me alive forever if my adversaries within me prevail. I was pawned in this present life and that's that. I don't enjoy being a slave of darkness. But I understand that darkness 'is not me' as Gods child.

If you can't, does that mean these doctrines are not taught in Scripture? I can show you plenty of verses that teach a believer can lose his salvation, even though Scripture doesn't point to an example of someone who did. It's simply not needed to prove the doctrine.

No, scriptures do not teach that. It's a far more interesting sight than just the person. We all know that those who sin and we all do from thought to word to deed do so in linkage to the tempter. To not divide the parties is a lack of vision on the part of those who neglect to do so, and in my sight that is an active working of the tempter in that believer, falsely justifying the entirety of themselves and ignoring the presence of the tempter who will never be justified and that tempter is and remains 'within anyone' totally depraved regardless of how fancy they paint up the outside of their tomb.

enjoy!

s

 

[dadof10]

First,Abraham was BEFORE THE LAW ,so Abraham could not have been justified by the LAW anyway,

Yep, you're right. I don't think Abraham was under the Law, even though the sentence seems to say that. Let me clarify.

Every instance, except one, where Paul uses the word "works", it's in the context of the Jewish "Law" (specifically circumcision). This dovetails with Acts 15 where Luke records the first Church council on the subject of the Law, specifically CIRCUMCISION. This is obviously a HUGE issue in the early Church especially since Jesus was a Jew, the early Believers were still attending synagog, and the Church was reaching out to Gentiles. The example of Abraham in Paul's letters is less about the broader "Law", and more about circumcision, which was a sign of the covenant given to, and passed on by, Abraham.

the WORKS that Paul said that Abraham was not justified by, were the GOOD DEEDS that he did

You need to prove this contention.

,not the law, for the law had not yet been given.

But circumcision, the huge doctrinal topic of the day, was. There were "Judaizers" who were teaching that "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." Paul was reacting to these people in his letters, using the example of Abraham, who they ostensibly were pointing to as proof that circumcision is necessary for salvation.

Think please, if the works of the law(something given by God)cannot make us just before God, then how could our supposed "good works" make us just before God?

I am thinking, thanks. The "works of the Law" put God in obligation to man. This is what Paul is writing about. This is why he hammers his readers about GRACE. Good works are a response to that Grace, as opposed to Law, which is not. Neither Paul nor James (nor the Catholic Church, for that matter) teaches salvation is by obligatory works. They all, however, teach that good deeds done in faith are NECESSARY for salvation. We must respond to God's Grace.

Again,you are missing the most important part in James,the introduction...IF a man SAY he has faith. James is speaking of a false claim of faith that is demonstrated by lack of faithfulness in his actions(works). We are not saved by the twin powers of faith in Christ and our good works,God only accepts the works of Christ and He ONLY accepts us because of our faith in Christ. You are missing something,God ONLY accepts the works of Christ,so we can only be accepted by faith in the works of Christ.

Gotta go for now, Sam. I'll take up this subject in my next post. Hopefully later on today.

 

[dadof10]

Again,you are missing the most important part in James,the introduction...IF a man SAY he has faith. James is speaking of a false claim of faith that is demonstrated by lack of faithfulness in his actions(works).

James begins his discourse with,IF a man SAY he has faith, this proves that James was questioning the mans supposed faith because of his lack of faithful actions,simple.

Sam, you are only quoting half a verse. "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?" (James (RSV) 2)

According to Thayer's, the rhetorical question in red above is literally, "can not faith save him?" ("dynamai me pistis sozo autos").

As you can see, James calls what the "man" has, "faith", not lack of faith. He goes on:

"If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. (James (RSV) 2)

Again, what is being spoken of here is not LACK of faith, or a "false claim", but real faith. How else do you explain Abraham being justified by his WORKS? Certainly HE has real faith, not a "false claim"?

We are not saved by the twin powers of faith in Christ and our good works,God only accepts the works of Christ and He ONLY accepts us because of our faith in Christ.

James disagrees with you. Referring to Abraham, "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." He also says, "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works," Faith was COMPLETED by his works... Works done in faith are what "profits" unto salvation. These are the plain words of Scripture, Sam.

You are missing something,God ONLY accepts the works of Christ,so we can only be accepted by faith in the works of Christ.

Only? This is a Protestant invention with no basis in Scripture.

 

[Sparkey]

Let's add to the words of James something I like to think of as the Recipie to cure short-sightedness (blindness):

(2Pe 1:5-11 KJV) - "And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

• To Faith add: Virtue. A virtuous course of thought, feeling and action.
• To Virtue add: Knowledge. Knowledge signifies in general intelligence, understanding, especially things lawful and unlawful for Christians: moral wisdom, such as is seen in right living.
• To Knowledge add: Temperance. Self-control (the virtue of one who masters his desires and passions, esp. his sensual appetites).
• To Temperance add: Patience. Steadfastness, constancy, endurance a patient enduring, sustaining, perseverance.
• To Patience add: Godliness. Piety towards God, godliness reverence, respect.
• To Godliness add: Kindness. The love which Christians cherish for each other as brethren.
• and to Brotherly Kindness: add Chairity (agape) --> Affection, good will, love, benevolence, brotherly love.

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

This faith (belief and trust in God) is not idle but active. James states bluntly that faith apart from works is dead. Peter 2nds it with his statement that we need give all dilligence to make our calling and election sure.

 

[Webb]

Dad of 10, where in Thayer is the statement found you gave in your last post?

Thanks

 

[ivdavid]

The "works of the Law" put God in obligation to man. This is what Paul is writing about. This is why he hammers his readers about GRACE. Good works are a response to that Grace, as opposed to Law, which is not. Neither Paul nor James (nor the Catholic Church, for that matter) teaches salvation is by obligatory works. They all, however, teach that good deeds done in faith are NECESSARY for salvation. We must respond to God's Grace.

In what way do you mean that the works of the Law put God in obligation to man? Wasn't the law given by God? Did He not say, keep the law and live? According to those under the law, they were only enacting the commandments of God and being faithful to Him - as commanded by Him. The promise of salvation to such acts of faithfulness was made by God - it was not imposed on God by these people whereby He was made 'obligated' to save them.

I don't see the difference between them and the people supporting " justification by 'good works' " today. What faith did the jews lack when they were obeying the commandments of the law? What is the faith that we ought to have when we work, for it to be a "good work"?

And what do you mean by grace here? Did the jews think they were perfect or sinless? I don't think so(John 8). And yet they believed to be blameless according to the righteousness of the law. How - because of sacrifices. They believed that their sins were not counted on account of their observing the commandments of sacrifices and Day of Atonement. Is that what is not happening here when someone says that they are not perfect and yet believe that the sincerity of their works coupled with Christ's sacrifice will get them into heaven?

My asking these questions does not mean I am challenging these beliefs - I only want to know the difference...

 

[Elijah674]

In what way do you mean that the works of the Law put God in obligation to man? Wasn't the law given by God? Did He not say, keep the law and live? According to those under the law, they were only enacting the commandments of God and being faithful to Him - as commanded by Him. The promise of salvation to such acts of faithfulness was made by God - it was not imposed on God by these people whereby He was made 'obligated' to save them.

I don't see the difference between them and the people supporting " justification by 'good works' " today. What faith did the jews lack when they were obeying the commandments of the law? What is the faith that we ought to have when we work, for it to be a "good work"?

And what do you mean by grace here? Did the jews think they were perfect or sinless? I don't think so(John 8). And yet they believed to be blameless according to the righteousness of the law. How - because of sacrifices. They believed that their sins were not counted on account of their observing the commandments of sacrifices and Day of Atonement. Is that what is not happening here when someone says that they are not perfect and yet believe that the sincerity of their works coupled with Christ's sacrifice will get them into heaven?

My asking these questions does not mean I am challenging these beliefs - I only want to know the difference...

From day one in all of the Godhead's creation, immorality was conditional upon sinlessness. Out of heaven & with mankind's creation it was never any different. After man lost the 'Robe of Christ's Rightousness', it is seen that he must be Born Again. And this REQUIRED NOT having the Holy Ghost striving on the ourside, but one being MADE THE PARTAKER OF HIM INSIDE! Acts 5:32 is the ETERNAL CONDITION!

--Elijah

 

[childeye]

When I contemplate James, it is as if he heard by hearsay what Paul was saying about a man being saved by faith through grace and not by works. While Paul was refering to works of the law, James mistakenly takes it to mean any works incuding the works that come through faith. Or as Joe pointed out works by faith in Love. And here we are rehashing the same dialogue, that is really just a case of misunderstanding because of semantics. For instance, Demons believe in God as in they acknowledge He exists, but Abraham believed in God as in he trusted Him. Again semantics.

 

[francisdesales]

Did you happen to find an example in the N.T. where a believer is going to fry alive forever for 'works failure?'

If so, feel free to direct me to a single named example.

s

Are you familiar with the Gospels? Have you read Matthew 25? There are three examples of "works failure" in the three parables, culminating with the REASON for the separation of the sheep and the goats. Can Christ make it any clearer???

No examples of evil works, no murder, theft, adultery. Just failure to love and utilize the gifts God gave us...

Regards