Faith AND Works-James 2...Again

[Drew]

The statement of fact remains. Any honest look at anyone will yield the fact that both good works and non good works have ensued in the lives of every person.

I have never suggested otherwise. What Paul says in Romans 2 remains: there will be a "deeds" judgement that all will be present at, and eternal life will indeed be granted according to "what we have done".

Paul's words, not mine.,

If you come to a conclusion that says 'regardless' of what God in Christ says in Matt. 25, you are throwing away what is taught therein.

I have posted nothing that would suggest that I "reject" Matthew 25.

IWe cannot by our 'works' seeing we have both, then demand that God provide an applique of DIVINE MERCY. That is only HIS to give and HIS to determine regardless of 'works.'

No one is suggesting that we "demand" anything of God. Paul's statement remains: final salvation is based on God's (Jesus') judgement of, yes, what we have done.

I am not sure how you see the Romans 9 text fitting in here. Are you suggesting that Paul is saying that God "pre-destines" some to salvation and some to loss?

 

[smaller]

I have never suggested otherwise. What Paul says in Romans 2 remains: there will be a "deeds" judgement that all will be present at, and eternal life will indeed be granted according to "what we have done".

Paul's words, not mine.,


I have posted nothing that would suggest that I "reject" Matthew 25.


No one is suggesting that we "demand" anything of God. Paul's statement remains: final salvation is based on God's (Jesus') judgement of, yes, what we have done.

I am not sure how you see the Romans 9 text fitting in here. Are you suggesting that Paul is saying that God "pre-destines" some to salvation and some to loss?

Unquestionably Yes.

Logic dictates that since 'all' do both works and non-works, there can be only One Final Answer and that answer WILL be based solely upon 'whom' God Desires to have MERCY.

s

 

[Drew]

..... and that answer WILL be based solely upon 'whom' God Desires to have MERCY.

s

The following text makes it clear that it is specifically those who meet a certain "standard" of good works who get eternal life.

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Now we can, if you like, talk about the nature of God's mercy and how that connects to the fact that some will pass and some will fail the Romans 2 judgement. And I am not at all suggesting that those who pass the "works" judgement of Romans 2 have not done so by God's mercy.

But Romans 2 is what it is - a clear, unambiguous statement that final salvation will be awarded according to the good works that are manifested in each person's life. Some will "pass" and some will "fail".

 

[smaller]

The following text makes it clear that it is specifically those who meet a certain "standard" of good works who get eternal life.

And as stated prior, any how are honest will come to the factual conclusion.

That 'all' do AND do not. Therefore on that basis, there is no decision.

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Now we can, if you like, talk about the nature of God's mercy and how that connects to the fact that some will pass and some will fail the Romans 2 judgement. And I am not at all suggesting that those who pass the "works" judgement of Romans 2 have not done so by God's mercy.

Logic dictates that since 'all' have done or not done inclusive of BOTH, that will not be the basis.

But Romans 2 is what it is - a clear, unambiguous statement that final salvation will be awarded according to the good works that are manifested in each person's life. Some will "pass" and some will "fail".

On the basis of done or not done, 'all' have marks on one side and no marks on the other. So again, that will NOT be the basis.

s

 

[Drew]

And as stated prior, any how are honest will come to the factual conclusion.

That 'all' do AND do not. Therefore on that basis, there is no decision.

No. Paul means what he says. You appear to be assuming that if you have any bad works at all, you will fail. This is adding to what Paul has said. Note his exact words:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Paul has not told us that we need to be perfect - without any bad works at all. He has simply said that we need to persist in doing good. If someone says to you "my friend Joe has persisted in doing good", would you take that as a statement of perfection? Of course not!

So we can take Paul at his word - you seem to think he is mistaken, which is interesting in and of itself - and accept that final salvation is based on a "works" judgement.

 

[smaller]

No. Paul means what he says. You appear to be assuming that if you have any bad works at all, you will fail. This is adding to what Paul has said. Note his exact words:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Paul has not told us that we need to be perfect - without any bad works at all.

Your implication carries that 'all good works' will be notched on a scale and compared with all the 'non-works' on the other side of the scale and based on 'your personal watchlist' of same, that will be the determining factor aka 'salvation by works.'

I see no such scale presented. Perhaps you can point it out?

He has simply said that we need to persist in doing good. If someone says to you "my friend Joe has persisted in doing good", would you take that as a statement of perfection? Of course not!

And I would say again that 'all' persist in doing 'both.'

So we can take Paul at his word - you seem to think he is mistaken, which is interesting in and of itself - and accept that final salvation is based on a "works" judgement.

Yes, I understand salvation based solely upon 'works.' Not an adherent. Were that the case one may be better off preaching 'ethics.'

enjoy!

s

 

[Drew]

Your implication carries that 'all good works' will be notched on a scale and compared with all the 'non-works' on the other side of the scale and based on 'your personal watchlist' of same, that will be the determining factor aka 'salvation by works.'

I see no such scale presented. Perhaps you can point it out?

I thought you might ask this.

Paul gives us no answer. In Romans 2, and in other places, Paul affirms final salvation by good works - I would be interested what you think Paul is talking about in Romans 2:6-7, by the way.

However, we do not need an answer. Elsewhere in Paul, we are told that if remain in faith, the Holy Spirit will, with certainty, produce the works that lead to salvation (see Romans 8).

So there is a wonderful inner coherence to Paul - if he actually told us "the standard" that would undermine his message that "its the job of the Spirit" to produce these works.

Yes, I understand salvation based solely upon 'works.' Not an adherent.

It appears, then, that you believe Paul is mistaken when he clearly asserts salvation by works in Romans 2.

Can you please explain your position on Romans 2:6-7?

 

[smaller]

I thought you might ask this.

Paul gives us no answer. In Romans 2, and in other places, Paul affirms final salvation by good works - I would be interested what you think Paul is talking about in Romans 2:6-7, by the way.

However, we do not need an answer. Elsewhere in Paul, we are told that if remain in faith, the Holy Spirit will, with certainty, produce the works that lead to salvation (see Romans 8).

Ah, so a 'worker' does not then 'work alone' in and for themselves, do they?

It is my belief that 'every good work' is in fact 'from Above,' and 'every bad work' is a work of the devil 'in that person.'

BOTH of these 'works' do again transpire in 'everyone.'

And it is on this basis that the SEPARATION of Matt. 25 will transpire.

We see a Perfect Picture of this as it applies to believers 'working good works' in:

Matt. 7:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

We 'all' after all do both GOOD and BAD.



I know this is not a popular belief amongst believers because it requires the honesty to say: My wicked works are in fact of and associated with the DEVIL and/or his minions. That TRUTH will not be easily granted to any potential viewer, but I believe it is A FACT.


It will not and cannot be grasped until a believers is LED to that TRUTHFUL conclusion by The Holy Spirit who WILL NOT LIE to us.


The Spirit assuredly tells us that wicked works of Satan do transpire in ALL of us, and this is WHY the devil and his messengers, 'specifically' are stated to be heading to the FIRE in Matt. 25.


Everyone will be judged. Man and DEVIL. Both operators are currently in one place, and that is IN MAN.


The determination that will be made is that MAN is not DEVIL. All and every 'good work' that all have done will be attributed to MAN in conjunction with the WORKING of God in them, and every worker of iniquity will be judged to be THE DEVIL and his minions who undoubtedly operate 'also' IN MAN.

So there is a wonderful inner coherence to Paul - if he actually told us "the standard" that would undermine his message that "its the job of the Spirit" to produce these works.

It appears, then, that you believe Paul is mistaken when he clearly asserts salvation by works in Romans 2.

Can you please explain your position on Romans 2:6-7?

There are many 'factual' dilemmas posed by the scriptures. On 'works' based salvation there are 'many' opposite claims. Yes, exactly opposite of either sides claims:

Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Romans 4:6
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

There are reasons for the scriptures being written the way they are. NO devil will receive 'credit' for 'good works' and NO SIN will be counted against 'MANkind.' (2 Cor. 5:19)

This IS the GOOD NEWS of The Gospel. Those who do not see it presently will see it soon enough.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Elijah674]

I thought you might ask this.

Paul gives us no answer. In Romans 2, and in other places, Paul affirms final salvation by good works - I would be interested what you think Paul is talking about in Romans 2:6-7, by the way.

However, we do not need an answer. Elsewhere in Paul, we are told that if remain in faith, the Holy Spirit will, with certainty, produce the works that lead to salvation (see Romans 8).

So there is a wonderful inner coherence to Paul - if he actually told us "the standard" that would undermine his message that "its the job of the Spirit" to produce these works.



It appears, then, that you believe Paul is mistaken when he clearly asserts salvation by works in Romans 2.

Can you please explain your position on Romans 2:6-7?

Only one answer to that falsehood. Love is not it.. NO Loving motive required! Just a created robot, meaning that Christ died for nothing!

--Elijah

 

[francisdesales]

Pardon my muffled laughter. The 'works' of both sheep and goats are there for viewing. I hope you don't need me to point out the obvious?

The parable, first of all, says that the judged are separated AS sheep are separated from the goats. There are no "sheep" or "goats", no "sheep works" or "goat works". There are acts of love and failure to act in love... The later are obviously willfully rejecting to act in love. And of course, this is done AFTER death at the final Judgment.

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats Matthew 25:32

You have continued to ignore the logical conclusion of your stance - I have pointed it out enough. In your mind, either heaven is filled with every man and woman ever born - OR every man, woman and child are in hell... Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

Secondly, we are merely going round and round because you fail to admit that I have given you THREE DIFFERENT parables that point out that "works failure" gets one excluded from the Kingdom. You have not addressed this, just danced around.

I'll give you one more that is even more definitive...

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 7:21

Now, no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except through the Holy Spirit, given only to BELIEVERS. Matthew continues in chapter 7 to make it clear that he is speaking of someone who had once declared "Jesus is Lord" by their actions. However, Jesus makes it very clear that NOT DOING THE WILL OF THE FATHER will not allow entrance into the Kingdom. "Works failure" again...

So it comes down to another example of a 'believer' who is not doing the will of the Father and being excluded from the Kingdom. Just as James said, NOT DOING what we ought to do is sin. THAT sort of "FAITH" WITHOUT LOVE CANNOT SAVE. Faith with works failure cannot save.

Regards

 

[smaller]

The parable, first of all, says that the judged are separated AS sheep are separated from the goats. There are no "sheep" or "goats", no "sheep works" or "goat works". There are acts of love and failure to act in love... The later are obviously willfully rejecting to act in love. And of course, this is done AFTER death at the final Judgment.

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats Matthew 25:32

You have continued to ignore the logical conclusion of your stance - I have pointed it out enough. In your mind, either heaven is filled with every man and woman ever born - OR every man, woman and child are in hell... Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

Continuing to point out the obvious. All do and don't do.

And your conclusion is also a false representation and not the only conclusion available as to 'whom' hell will be filled with. We know without any doubt that the devil and his messengers WILL fill hell.

My question for YOU is: Where are these entities, the devil and his messengers currently 'located?' This is about as clear of an answer available in the entire N.T. The answer to that question is 'in MAN.'

Secondly, we are merely going round and round because you fail to admit that I have given you THREE DIFFERENT parables that point out that "works failure" gets one excluded from the Kingdom. You have not addressed this, just danced around.

I've danced around nothing. All the parables are perfectly identical and mean the identical thing.

I'll give you one more that is even more definitive...

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 7:21

Now, no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except through the Holy Spirit, given only to BELIEVERS.

Not so my friend. One cannot 'divide' God from Love. John the Apostle tells us 'who' is born of God and known of Him:

1 John 4:7
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

There are all kinds of 'Jesus paint' out there in the world, and 'many' of the utterly false and rightfully rejected. There is however only One Spirit of God, the actions thereof Love. Even the RCC has recognized this fact for many centuries and made the rightful conclusion that God does not burn people alive for actions of love.

Matthew continues in chapter 7 to make it clear that he is speaking of someone who had once declared "Jesus is Lord" by their actions.

Indeed. Doctrinal concoctions of Jesus mean 'nothing' when they are false. There is only 1 determining measure.

However, Jesus makes it very clear that NOT DOING THE WILL OF THE FATHER will not allow entrance into the Kingdom. "Works failure" again...

Everyone has 'works failure' believer or unbeliever. So you are back to the same dilemma. Everyone does and does not. That's just the way it is.

So it comes down to another example of a 'believer' who is not doing the will of the Father and being excluded from the Kingdom.

And you continue to overlook the obvious. The N.T. scriptures are filled to the brim with examples of demons and satan operating 'where?' That's right. 'In' mankind. One would have to be nearly blind to miss this fact.

The RCC might think they eradicate the entirety of the N.T. in regards to this fact on the basis of freewill or to 'blame man' for the obvious 'access' the devil has to and in mankind, but that does not eliminate the fact that devils operate 'in man.' If you look at 'every' parable, that is exactly 'how' they are all to be understood, as Jesus taught us all:

Mark 4:
13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

You or anyone else can claim immunity from this fact, or say it doesn't happen to 'you.' Unfortunately the fact didn't change and the principle deployed here is to be used to understand 'ALL' parables according to 'our' Lord.

So where is your 'accounting' of this fact as it applies not only to Matt. 25, but to every parable you care to put forth regarding 'judgments?' Oddly it is blatantly 'missing.'

The disclosure of the parties in Matt. 25 couldn't be any clearer. There are only two, sheep and goats. And there are only two parties divulged. Mankind and DEVILS.

Now how one could miss that there are the 'separated parties' is quite beyond me, but of course I read that same parable for years before it became obvious.

Jesus Himself practiced this type of 'separation' how many times in the N.T??? What? Thousands of times? Yet 'believers' still don't see it, and 'always' grant themselves 'immunity' from that working. That practice itself is a contrivance of DECEPTION operating in the blinded victims of same.

There can be no doubt whatsoever that the devil is connected to every last sin in man:

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Seeing the also blatant fact that 'all people' do both and 'sin is both of the devil and a work of the devil' what conclusion should this lead one to?

To me it as clear as the nose on my face. But you see, the practice of the hypocrite is to claim personal righteousness and blame other people. That is in fact an operation of 'the children of the devil' in such people, yes, in 'believers.'

Why moreso in believers than in unbelievers? Because they are exposed to 'more Word.' And that is 'where' Satan enters the picture. The 'unbelievers' are also blinded by the god of this world in their 'minds.' You can certainly claim it's the blinded's fault, but the obvious is that they are 'not alone' in 'mind.' And even the unbelievers 'also' do acts of LOVE.

So, all people do both actions and non. All 'all' non works are undoubtedly connected to the devil and his messengers.

So, what parties might one think will be separated?

hmmmmm? Such mysteries! Mysteries hidden in plain and open sight, yet unseen.

Such a mystery....NOT.

Just as James said, NOT DOING what we ought to do is sin. THAT sort of "FAITH" WITHOUT LOVE CANNOT SAVE. Faith with works failure cannot save.
Regards

You can practice any form of condemnation to others you see fit. I am not fooled whatsoever by these types of actions in religious people. Jesus, Paul, John ALL told me 'how' to measure my fellow man:

A. Love them all

Jesus, Paul, John also advised on matters of sin in relationship to mankind:

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

That leaves only one place left to count. Those 'believers' who don't see this way, will see soon enough.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Drew]

Ah, so a 'worker' does not then 'work alone' in and for themselves, do they?

No they don't. And I have never suggested otherwise.

It is my belief that 'every good work' is in fact 'from Above,'

and 'every bad work' is a work of the devil 'in that person.'

BOTH of these 'works' do again transpire in 'everyone.'

I know that you believe the devil is "in" the Christian. I see no evidence for this position Biblically. We have been through Romans 7 on this and I do not see how that text supports your position. Nor any others for that matter.

And it is on this basis that the SEPARATION of Matt. 25 will transpire.

We see a Perfect Picture of this as it applies to believers 'working good works' in:

Matt. 7:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

We 'all' after all do both GOOD and BAD.

Not correct reasoning. You seem to be arguing thus:

1. Some people claim to do good works but will be lost;
2. Therefore salvation cannot be grounded in the good works that are manifest in the life of the believer.

This is not correct logic. The fact that someone claims to have done good works, but has not actually done enough of them does not negate the truth (Romans 2:6-7) that some will indeed be saved on the basis of good works.

Why do you not address my question about Romans 2:6-7? Presenting other challenging texts does not relieve you of the responsibility to address Romans 2:6-7. And, for my part, I will address each of the other texts you presented in your post.

PLEASE DEAL WITH ROMANS 2:6-7.

Please answer: What do you think Paul means when he writes this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[smaller]

No they don't. And I have never suggested otherwise.
I know that you believe the devil is "in" the Christian. I see no evidence for this position Biblically. We have been through Romans 7 on this and I do not see how that text supports your position. Nor any others for that matter.

If you feel that the entrance of the tempter for temptation in your mind does not happen to you as a believer, so be it. Nothing I can really say about that.

You may understand that our different views here will produce dramatically different results about our textual conclusions across the board.

Not correct reasoning. You seem to be arguing thus:
1. Some people claim to do good works but will be lost;

Not at all. The RCC and most of old school orthodoxy has held to the determination that God will not fry people alive forever for doing 'good works.' God is not against such things, obviously. I agree with that conclusion.

2. Therefore salvation cannot be grounded in the good works that are manifest in the life of the believer.

Never said that either. Far from it. How do you arrive at an exact opposite conclusion in both cases from what I've stated???

This is not correct logic.

Sorry, but you are attacking your own strawman.

The fact that someone claims to have done good works, but has not actually done enough of them does not negate the truth (Romans 2:6-7) that some will indeed be saved on the basis of good works.

heh heh...you mean as little as this?

Matthew 10:42
And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

The notion of the works scorecard based on numbers or overall performance is quite absurd. The fact remains as to all works that all people both do and do not. That remains a fact.

Why do you not address my question about Romans 2:6-7? Presenting other challenging texts does not relieve you of the responsibility to address Romans 2:6-7. And, for my part, I will address each of the other texts you presented in your post.

I've already addressed it numerous times, and agree with Paul's statement entirely, and in particular, Romans 2:1....which practice in case you hadn't noticed is what you practice and Paul forbids.

PLEASE DEAL WITH ROMANS 2:6-7.

Please answer: What do you think Paul means when he writes this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Again, I can only note the obvious. That all people persist in both doing and not doing. If you look at my conclusion above, you will know why we differ and how it is we understand these matters differently.

enjoy!

s

 

[Drew]

Hi smaller:

I can see we are not getting anywhere. See you in some other thread.

 

[francisdesales]

And your conclusion is also a false representation and not the only conclusion available as to 'whom' hell will be filled with. We know without any doubt that the devil and his messengers WILL fill hell.

My question for YOU is: Where are these entities, the devil and his messengers currently 'located?' This is about as clear of an answer available in the entire N.T. The answer to that question is 'in MAN.'

You are twisting what I said to present off topic conversations. I stated that all men/women are either in hell or in heaven - according to your interpretation. I did not state that ONLY men/women occupy either domain. Bringing up demons/angels is ANOTHER attempt to go off topic and ignore the implications of what I have already made clear.

I've danced around nothing. All the parables are perfectly identical and mean the identical thing.

The dancing is the result of your not accepting that I answered your challenge, FOUR TIMES, now...

Not so my friend. One cannot 'divide' God from Love.

Yet another red herrring that has nothing to do with my comments. Is this how you intend on continuing the conversation? The Bible shows that one can have faith without works of love. There is no use in denying this. Otherwise, "faith without works does not save" is extraneous.

Everyone has 'works failure' believer or unbeliever. So you are back to the same dilemma. Everyone does and does not. That's just the way it is.

And you told me there is no such thing in the NT. That was what I was answering. How long are you going to continue this charade?

And you continue to overlook the obvious. The N.T. scriptures are filled to the brim with examples of demons and satan operating 'where?' That's right. 'In' mankind. One would have to be nearly blind to miss this fact.

I am not sure why you even bring this up, except to hope that I will forget that you have not responded to your challenge... This is just another red herring, since I never even imply that satan does not operate within man.

The disclosure of the parties in Matt. 25 couldn't be any clearer. There are only two, sheep and goats. And there are only two parties divulged. Mankind and DEVILS.

The only thing clear is your various attempts to derail the fact that your challenge has been answered, OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!! This is another lame attempt to "invent as you go..." Devils are not once mentioned in Matthew 25. Devils are not being judged and separated. Devils are NOT getting out of hell. It is the "nations" being judged. MEN. Devils are not being judged.

Now how one could miss that there are the 'separated parties' is quite beyond me, but of course I read that same parable for years before it became obvious.

More silliness... Only men are judged and are later separated. There are not two separated parties being judged. One class is judged - the result of which separates the one class, men, into two groups.

Excuse me if I ignore the rest of your red herrings. You might as well wax eloquently about how the earth is round or that the sky is blue and make long winded statements about those facts that I do not even talk about...

Regards

 

[smaller]

You are twisting what I said to present off topic conversations. I stated that all men/women are either in hell or in heaven - according to your interpretation.

Please show me where I stated that. Your logic has lept to placing statements in my mouth that were not stated by me.

I did not state that ONLY men/women occupy either domain. Bringing up demons/angels is ANOTHER attempt to go off topic and ignore the implications of what I have already made clear.

Why would that fact be 'off topic?' If it's a fact of works or non works and the devil is implicated in NON works, why the desire to brush the fact away?

The dancing is the result of your not accepting that I answered your challenge, FOUR TIMES, now...

I've already given my answer multiple times over. Why is it you can not hear may speak volumes about the engagement.

You see your 'desire' is that I blame man and ignore the devils role in every sin and disobedience. I do not blame you for that desire.

Yet another red herrring that has nothing to do with my comments. Is this how you intend on continuing the conversation? The Bible shows that one can have faith without works of love. There is no use in denying this. Otherwise, "faith without works does not save" is extraneous.

One can have faith and still have evil present with them and a devil. What is your point?

And you told me there is no such thing in the NT. That was what I was answering. How long are you going to continue this charade?

Again, never stated by me. Why the strawman? I cited 1 John 4:7, your group agrees with that conclusion, so do I. What's the problem?

1 John 4:7
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

You'd rather me not believe my own eyes?

I am not sure why you even bring this up, except to hope that I will forget that you have not responded to your challenge... This is just another red herring, since I never even imply that satan does not operate within man.

Great! Then you may apply that understanding to the SEPARATION of the GOATS from the SHEEP! Until you do you have no accounting for the PARTIES that are obviously in the parable, and IN ALL parables.

There is a reason believers cannot do this even when the other parties are pointed out clearly in the scriptures. They just can't see it, understand it, or 'get there.'

The only thing clear is your various attempts to derail the fact that your challenge has been answered, OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!! This is another lame attempt to "invent as you go..." Devils are not once mentioned in Matthew 25.

heh heh heh!!!

whew!

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Am I missing something? Or are U?

tooo funny.

Devils are not being judged and separated.

They are the only other party to the parable, and in all parables as Jesus taught. So where is your 'accounting' for THEM? Obviously you missed it.

Devils are NOT getting out of hell.

I have never once made a statement that they ARE. I have no idea why you would imply that statement or conclusion to me.

It is the "nations" being judged. MEN. Devils are not being judged.

If you say so Francis.

More silliness... Only men are judged and are later separated. There are not two separated parties being judged. One class is judged - the result of which separates the one class, men, into two groups.

I certainly see two parties in Matt. 25. Men and devils. Feel free to only look at one of the parties. Not my problem.

Excuse me if I ignore the rest of your red herrings. You might as well wax eloquently about how the earth is round or that the sky is blue and make long winded statements about those facts that I do not even talk about...

Regards

I think you have said enuf quite frankly.

enjoy!

s

 

[francisdesales]

Please show me where I stated that. Your logic has lept to placing statements in my mouth that were not stated by me.

Read your posts. You even agreed with the discussion on how the sheep commit "goat works" and the "goats" commit "sheep works".

Why would that fact be 'off topic?' If it's a fact of works or non works and the devil is implicated in NON works, why the desire to brush the fact away?

It is off topic because it is off topic.

We aren't talking about the reason WHY, but rather, IF "works failure" leads to eternal separation from God.

Is this so difficult for you to follow? YOU are the one who made the cock-sure statement. I provided a number of Scriptural verses that argue otherwise, and will even provide another for you: 1 Cor 13:2 Having all the faith in the world is meaningless without love... Thus, "works failure" makes faith as nothing. Certainly not salvific.

I've already given my answer multiple times over. Why is it you can not hear may speak volumes about the engagement.

Your answers are dancing, just like this post. More off-topic replies about devils being judged. Really. You think THAT is the context of Matthew 25, devils being judged? Ridiculous babble, that is what it is. Off topic babble to mask your inability to simply state "yes" or "no" regarding whether I have answered your challenge.

Again, never stated by me. Why the strawman? I cited 1 John 4:7, your group agrees with that conclusion, so do I. What's the problem?

The problem is that I am not talking about separating God from Love. So why are you citing that "God is Love"? The earth is round, you going to cite NASA on that, too??? Can you actually address whether "works failure" leads to eternal separation from God???

Great! Then you may apply that understanding to the SEPARATION of the GOATS from the SHEEP! Until you do you have no accounting for the PARTIES that are obviously in the parable, and IN ALL parables.

There is only one party. "The Nations". The demons are not part of the parable. I have no clue where you got that silliness from, except desperation in your denial. Men are "The Nations". Not demons, not angels, and not frogs... So don't give me any future posts about animals, chairs, or moons. We are talking about men and whether THEIR WORK FAILURE, even with faith, condemns them to eternal separation. Quite simple, I had thought...

There is a reason believers cannot do this even when the other parties are pointed out clearly in the scriptures. They just can't see it, understand it, or 'get there.'

More off-topic comments. Until you address the issue, I am not expanding this discussion down other avenues. Maybe later.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Am I missing something? Or are U?

You are. The parable is not about the devil and his angels. It is the end of humans who are "failure of works". They join the demons who are already there. They are not part of the parable. They are not asked "did you clothe Jesus" or "Did you feed Jesus". The demons are merely a reference made by Christ to show where men who have been deemed unworthy for heaven are going. Demons are not judged in this parable, nor are they part of it. So yea, you are missing something... They are not the subject of this parable. It is merely a remark made by Christ that Hell is made for demons and those MEN who refuse to love - even though given the chance by Grace.

I have never once made a statement that they ARE. I have no idea why you would imply that statement or conclusion to me.

Because you said they are being judged in the parable.

I think you have said enuf quite frankly.

I said MORE than enough to answer your challenge. Next time, don't make such blanket proclamations.

 

[smaller]

Read your posts. You even agreed with the discussion on how the sheep commit "goat works" and the "goats" commit "sheep works".

And again, didn't say that whatsoEVER. What R U reading?

I said 'all people' both do and don't, and that obviously the devil and his messengers operate IN man.

What might that lead one to logically conclude about 'sheep' and 'goats' given those facts? Why would you blame a SHEEP for GOAT works if these parties are overlapped, to the which you also concede, [as if the fact could be denied anyway!]

We aren't talking about the reason WHY, but rather, IF "works failure" leads to eternal separation from God.

I've already conceded again to the obvious. Every goat will be in the flames for eternity. WHO is the only party mentioned in the parable that outright SAYS that is the party heading there? Why, the devil and his messengers. Wow. Genius.

Is this so difficult for you to follow? YOU are the one who made the cock-sure statement.

What cocksure statement might that be? Something obvious? A fact? That makes 'me' 'cocksure?' lol I know my understanding grates against the very grain of many 'religious' people. But I also know why that is and don't 'blame them.' There is obviously another party to look to that operates 'in man' and totally 'resists' all scriptural fact 'unless' it involves blame and condemnation 'only to man.'

I provided a number of Scriptural verses that argue otherwise, and will even provide another for you: 1 Cor 13:2 Having all the faith in the world is meaningless without love... Thus, "works failure" makes faith as nothing. Certainly not salvific.

Never said otherwise. Every action of love is done by faith. God IS Love. Faith 'works' through LOVE. Not an issue with me. You?

Your answers are dancing, just like this post.

By all means, feel free to define what that dancing might be. A dancing accusation without attending facts means nothing but a false accuser in play.

More off-topic replies about devils being judged.

Obviously they are going to the fire according to Matt. 25 and many other statements of fact in the scriptures. You got a problem with that too?

And you also concede that these parties operate IN man. Why then would you overlook that fact?

Really. You think THAT is the context of Matthew 25, devils being judged?

We can certainly solve that dilemma for you in a hurry. Are they judged and going to the fire? If you say yes, then you agree with me. Your claim was that they are not even mentioned in the parable, which claim at this point you probably find a little embarrassing. So NOW you claim the obvious, that yes, they are STUCK THERE in black on white in Matt. 25, but that is to be ignored in favor of only looking at mankind.

Is that supposed to be what passes for reasoning these days?

Ridiculous babble, that is what it is. Off topic babble to mask your inability to simply state "yes" or "no" regarding whether I have answered your challenge.

By all means feel free to present facts when making accusations of babble and off topic. Otherwise the claim is just another false accusation or someone who doesn't like the factual conclusion, but has no other answers available to counter the facts.

The problem is that I am not talking about separating God from Love. So why are you citing that "God is Love"? The earth is round, you going to cite NASA on that, too??? Can you actually address whether "works failure" leads to eternal separation from God???

That was not the position stated from 1 John 4:7. Would you like to hear it again? John says everyone who loves knows God and is born of God. I, personally, am hard pressed to not see everyone having done 'some' love in their lives at some time. What does that tell you about anyone who does that? See 1 John 4:7 or deny same. I really don't care if you accept it or not. Your 'church' does. I do as well.

There is only one party. "The Nations".

In case you missed it, Nations are PLURAL meaning 'more than one.' Otherwise it would be Nation singular.

The demons are not part of the parable.

Why did Jesus put them there then? Because they are irrelevant and off topic?

Perhaps you can ask Him in the next age?

I have no clue where you got that silliness from, except desperation in your denial.

Reading that they are in the parable does not make it desperation on my part Francis. Sorry. If there were no need for them there, Jesus had no reason to insert same. And of course Satan is also part of understanding 'all' parables as well. I don't care if you can't see it. There is spiritual reasons WHY many believers can't. I don't blame them. I do blame Satan for imposing that kind of rampant blindness to the obvious.

Men are "The Nations". Not demons, not angels, and not frogs

There are only two disclosed parties in the text and two nations. Sheep and goats, sheep nations and goat nations, mankind and devils.

IF as you openly admit, that devils operate IN man, why would you see ONLY man? Does that make sense? Certainly not to me! You are totally welcome to deny that they exist in Matt. 25, AS YOU DID, even though they are right there in black on white to SEE.

I can't logically do that because IT'S A LIE.

... So don't give me any future posts about animals, chairs, or moons. We are talking about men and whether THEIR WORK FAILURE, even with faith, condemns them to eternal separation. Quite simple, I had thought...

You can insert whatever you want to see there Francis. I see only mankind and devils, and ZERO of your other claims I stated frogs, animals, chairs or moons. Stick to the facts please.

More off-topic comments. Until you address the issue, I am not expanding this discussion down other avenues. Maybe later.

There is no later and the facts are not changing. If you can't stand up to the facts now it won't change later.

You are. The parable is not about the devil and his angels.

What was it you missed on this one Francis?

Mark 4:13
And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

If Jesus said 'all' parables, He means ALL.

Now who are the parties to this and ALL parables Francis [from the very next lines]?

14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.



There is Jesus, people and Satan.


Now, Francis, given that these are the components to understand ALL parables, who might you suppose are the components of the Parable of the sheep and goats in Matt. 25?


Do you consider that unreasonable of me to see Jesus, people and Satan [and his messengers] in 'all parables.'


Now IF I had to say 'who' was the GOAT, and seeing this fact about 'evil works' or 'lack of good works'


1 John 3:

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

And the DEVIL even as YOU say, operates IN MAN....


Well, you know, it could be written in neon red letters 10 feet high and a lot of people still just can't get there.



Cutting the balance of your post for this reason that worketh IN YOU because you practice OPPOSITE of what Jesus does:


2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

You can't get there can you Francis?

I for one am quite sick of DEVILS in mankind 'blaming and accusing' our fellow man day and night before God, when that is not done by Christ.

God is a lot more patient than I.

enjoy!

s

 

[tjw]

What about Acts 16?

 

[francisdesales]

I said 'all people' both do and don't, and that obviously the devil and his messengers operate IN man.

That's right, so your take on "goat works" and "sheep works" won't stand. God doesn't judge us on one event, then change His mind tomorrow when we disobey His Will, and then back again the day after... Clearly, the "works" or "works failure" is based upon one's general life, not each and every single event. Thus, clearly, if God judged us based on one event, either everyone would go to heaven OR everyone would go to hell.

What might that lead one to logically conclude about 'sheep' and 'goats' given those facts? Why would you blame a SHEEP for GOAT works.

There are no "sheep" or "goats". In the parable, it is either those sent to heaven or those sent to hell... The word "as" should be your clue that it is a metaphor. There are those who generally failed to love throughout their lives and those who generally did love.

I've already conceded again to the obvious.

And that's all I needed to hear. You stand corrected.

Works failure can keep a person out of heaven.

The rest, the "why's" and "how comes" and talk of demons or potential future discussion on how God did not die for frogs, that was not the subject or concern of my initial response to you. I have provided more than enough verses to destroy your mistaken proclamation.

Regards