Faith AND Works-James 2...Again

[smaller]

Are you familiar with the Gospels? Have you read Matthew 25? There are three examples of "works failure" in the three parables, culminating with the REASON for the separation of the sheep and the goats. Can Christ make it any clearer???

No examples of evil works, no murder, theft, adultery. Just failure to love and utilize the gifts God gave us...

Regards

Ah, so you always and only do 'sheep works?' Is that your claim?

Dangling ones feet over the fires does not a sheep make.

s

 

[dadof10]

All I have to say on the bolded matter is to show one example where a 'believer' lost their eternal life period, regardless of the basis of works.

But that is the bolded claim you make above. I simply ask for a single example of the transpiring in the text, and of course there is none.

As far as I know, nowhere does Scripture say that ANYONE, believer or not, is in Hell. Does that mean there is no Hell, or is the doctrine taught WITHOUT an example? Is this your qualifier for Truth, that there needs to be an example? Funny exegetical method.

Believers fall 'in battle' everyday with sin and no one stops sinning. Let me know 'if' you have performed adequately to the extent of ceasing to sin, starting with 'thoughts' of same.

Of course I sin. I'm human.

On the other hand the scriptures are filled with rewards for doing even the simplest of works, such as providing a cool drink of water.

Why "on the the other hand"? The two aren't at odds. It's possible for God to take works into consideration with regards to salvation and give "rewards", even temporal ones.

The real question at the heart of works might seem to be would a single dire sin event offset a lifetime of good works? Believers really do vary greatly on this subject. Some people are in a constant state of flux regarding their eternal fate because they know their sin in mind betrays them and they constantly seek to eradicate that type of sin and they are never successful in a single instance.

Because a person can't totally overcome sin, doesn't mean he is bound for Hell. God accepts our efforts and knows we can't EVER become perfect in this life.

Though I may applaud such efforts, there are reasons quite beyond their control for what happens within them. They just can't put their finger on 'why' that is.

I don't hold to the total depravity of man theory.

Look at it more reasonably and we might both agree?

Example?

When Satan spoke through Peter, at that moment Satan was-is and remains totally depraved. And Peter not. There you have a more accurate picture of total depravity. One is totally depraved, the other, not.

Same example could apply to Satan's entrance into Judas, Satan again being totally depraved and Judas a slave of same. Or even the devil that was put upon Paul, that devil, that evil being totally depraved and Paul not at all.

It then becomes a more accurate picture.

I would go on to say that sin in mind caused by the tempter, the devil, is a sin and the workings of total depravity in any persons mind. That does not make the person the same as the tempter, nor does it make the actions of thoughts therein the persons mind the thoughts of the person.

Now extend that working to 'good works.' If the presence of the tempter in mind is present with anyone even while they are doing good works, the person is accredited, and the tempter, not a bit. There is therefore perpetually, in everyone, two entirely different ways and measures of viewing everything.

This smacks of Dualism.

I accept unlimited atonement for mankind and totally ineffective atonement for devils. Since the later operate actively 'in the minds' of all and every sin connected to same, I simply and honestly can not view any person as just they, themselves. Every Word of God applies to 'every person' and also 'what they carry within them' on the dark side of the ledgers. The tempter who I admit is active in my own mind remains under the curse of God at all times regardless of the evidence of 'external activity' of sin. I always try to keep that in mind as Those Words of His applied to that working are a DIRE REMINDER FROM GOD to keep same in check. I do not believe that God is going to burn me alive forever if my adversaries within me prevail. I was pawned in this present life and that's that. I don't enjoy being a slave of darkness. But I understand that darkness 'is not me' as Gods child.

No, scriptures do not teach that. It's a far more interesting sight than just the person. We all know that those who sin and we all do from thought to word to deed do so in linkage to the tempter. To not divide the parties is a lack of vision on the part of those who neglect to do so, and in my sight that is an active working of the tempter in that believer, falsely justifying the entirety of themselves and ignoring the presence of the tempter who will never be justified and that tempter is and remains 'within anyone' totally depraved regardless of how fancy they paint up the outside of their tomb.

So, you are not responsible for your actions? The "devil made you do it"?

Do you have any thoughts on James 2?

 

[dadof10]

Dad of 10, where in Thayer is the statement found you gave in your last post?

Thanks

It's from the Blue Letter Bible online version. Here's the link, and welcome to the forums!!!

Blue Letter Bible - Home Page

 

[francisdesales]

Ah, so you always and only do 'sheep works?' Is that your claim?

Dangling ones feet over the fires does not a sheep make.

s

Why are you trying to make this about me? :

In Matthew 25, Jesus judges the nations based on "works" or "works failure". Do you deny that??? I provided what you asked.

Trying to make this about me and my inability to ALWAYS comply with the Will of God is changing the subject. Jesus said "you fed me". He doesn't mention how often or whether the sheep ever failed to feed Jesus. That is your concern, attempting to figure out "how many times I need to feed vs not feed Jesus". That very attitude is turning salvation from a way of life to counting good deeds. NO ONE here has said that God counts our good deeds and balances them on a ledger before they can enter the Kingdom. That is a strawman of your construction.

The parable is not meant to show that someone ALWAYS feeds Jesus when given the opportunity. It is meant to show how God judges the overall direction of one's life and worthiness to enter the Kingdom. It is based upon love (or not loving). Notice, faith is not once specifically mentioned, although it is implied. The disciple of Christ will love when given the opportunity. GENERALLY. Not every single time.

Regards

 

[smaller]

As far as I know, nowhere does Scripture say that ANYONE, believer or not, is in Hell.

Excellent fact. Don't you think that if there is a reward, for example, as little as providing a cup of water, that works are looked upon 'very' favorably by God?

I have a hard time reconciling 'reward' to equal 'eternal punishment in fire.'

Personally it would be very hard not to see some good in everyone regardless and also to both pray and hope for the very best for them 'if' that is what I desired from God for myself.

Just my view of course. But if the big "I" hopes for eternal reward, it may very well be incumbent upon me to first and foremost 'hope for that' for all other people FIRST. If not, I may actually be as deceived as Haman, thinking that the big "I" have the Kings favor when in fact the gallows were awaiting he and his family.

Does that mean there is no Hell,

I believe eternal hell is beyond question, both eternal and punishing. We also know for a fact that the devil and his messengers will be there.

Again, where it gets really dicey for me is seeing that those entities do factually operate on a multitude of levels within every person. This fact alone defers my own judgment to that working in anyone and provides a very interesting fulcrum of understanding.

or is the doctrine taught WITHOUT an example? Is this your qualifier for Truth, that there needs to be an example? Funny exegetical method.

Of course I sin. I'm human.

Let there be no doubt. God has factually determined punishment upon 'every sinner.'

Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Why "on the the other hand"? The two aren't at odds. It's possible for God to take works into consideration with regards to salvation and give "rewards", even temporal ones.

My observation on rewards is A. None of us do good at all times. B. We all sin and continue to do so i.e. we, even as believers do goat works and do not always do 'sheep works.' This unequivocally places us in a 'mixed camp' with 'goat works.' The extreme proclivity of believers in general is to only see their 'sheep works' side and ignore the fact of the 'goat works' side, all the while proclaiming 'eternal woe' on other people. To me that is the exact measure of a hypocrite, which same Jesus hated. I believe 'works' include HONESTY about our situation, and when we 'do that' we are enabled to look more favorably upon our neighbors. To me, this is 'a work.' A 'sheep' work and an eternally favorable 'work.'

Because a person can't totally overcome sin, doesn't mean he is bound for Hell.

Never said otherwise.

God accepts our efforts and knows we can't EVER become perfect in this life.

This smacks of Dualism.

A lot of people like to throw that term around. Few understand it.

So, you are not responsible for your actions? The "devil made you do it"?

Do you have any thoughts on James 2?

I often hear that, but it is just another strawman. IF the devil inserts temptation thoughts in any persons mind or even worse, commits theft of Word from a persons heart, which is factually a sin of theft, that SIN was committed within them by the DEVIL. It had zero to do with the person. So the DEVIL made no one do anything. The 'devil' himself 'did it.' Please apply a tad of logic to that fact if you are able.

As to James in general, I accept the entirety therein.

Those who show mercy shall same receive.

On the other hand, the person 'working' their faith in the hope that God doesn't burn them alive forever is, imho, a slave of personal fear for their own hide, and no servant of God whatsoever.

Such have no understandings of eternal mercy, which at it's essence means exactly that.

enjoy!

s

 

[Drew]

James can be a book that can cause some to stumble if they are not careful. First, at a glance James seems to be contradicting Paul,Paul made it plain that we are justified and kept justified by faith in Christ sacrifice alone and that confidence(faith) in any work could actually cause us to fall from the grace of God that we walk in.

I do not think this is a complete characterization of what Paul wrote. Note this text from Romans 2:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

A clear assertion that, indeed, the awarding of eternal life is according to "deeds".

Now there is a way to reconcile this clear statement with the other things that Paul writes about how people are justified / saved by faith alone. And that is to assert that if a person has true faith, the Holy Spirit will most assuredly transform that person and produce saving deeds.

But let's not ignore that Paul clearly indicates that salvation is based on deeds (which, as I have just tried to say, does not conflict with salvation by faith, if you get the "sequencing" right - faith in the present guarantees a life of saving good deeds in the future).

I do not direct this critique at you, but if there is one thing I find disturbing, it is the wild explanations people come up with to sweep Romans 2:6-7 under the table.

 

[smaller]

Why are you trying to make this about me? :

Well, let's say believers in general, and I'll be the first to admit that I do both goat works and not always sheep works. I kinda like a tad of personal honesty when discussing theology in general.

In Matthew 25, Jesus judges the nations based on "works" or "works failure". Do you deny that??? I provided what you asked.

Not only nations, but people and devils. And I accept the entirety of those statements. Every Word of God is, to me, beyond questioning. The only lack I may have is perfect vision of same. You?

Trying to make this about me and my inability to ALWAYS comply with the Will of God is changing the subject. Jesus said "you fed me". He doesn't mention how often or whether the sheep ever failed to feed Jesus. That is your concern, attempting to figure out "how many times I need to feed vs not feed Jesus". That very attitude is turning salvation from a way of life to counting good deeds. NO ONE here has said that God counts our good deeds and balances them on a ledger before they can enter the Kingdom. That is a strawman of your construction.

I'm just sayin' that 'more than likely' all of us have neglected to do 'sheep works' and have factually done 'goat works' by neglecting to 'do so.'

You are welcome to claim otherwise for your 'self.' I'm on the record for my 'self' and believe that is an honest statement from moi.

The parable is not meant to show that someone ALWAYS feeds Jesus when given the opportunity.

Of course it is. Failure to 'do so' is the work of the goats therein. Failure to 'do so' is just an excuser of that failure.

Believers who point to Matt. 25 and excuse the 'fact' that they don't 'always' do 'sheep works' and sometimes, via neglect to do so, that is factually a goat work are simply not reading it very accurately whatsoever. If any believer wants to claim 'only sheep works' even while they factually do 'goat works' that is certainly their prerogative. I don't think Jesus will overlook that fact myself. He's quite clear that failure to do those works are goat works, period.

It is meant to show how God judges the overall direction of one's life and worthiness to enter the Kingdom.

Ah, so an overall sheep worker and occasional goat worker? Is that really what you think? I say that is a person suffering under self justifications heavily weighted on only one side of the scale of fact.

Let's see, if I gave a cup of water to hundreds of people, but only murdered one person, obviously the numbers would be 'in my favor' right?

It is based upon love (or not loving). Notice, faith is not once specifically mentioned, although it is implied.

Faith works through love. I have a hard time making a division therein between the two.

The disciple of Christ will love when given the opportunity. GENERALLY. Not every single time.

Regards

That's why I don't dangle other people over the eternally roasting flames with my 'theology.'

enjoy!

s

 

[dadof10]

That is your concern, attempting to figure out "how many times I need to feed vs not feed Jesus". That very attitude is turning salvation from a way of life to counting good deeds. NO ONE here has said that God counts our good deeds and balances them on a ledger before they can enter the Kingdom.

Excellent point, Joe. Because of the man-made doctrine of sola-fide, many Protestants falsely separate faith and good deeds. As I've said many times before, God wants it all, not just a one-time "acceptance", but a lifelong dedication to Him, sometimes reaffirming that "dedication" every minute (in my case, anyway).

Salvation to Catholics is less about Heaven and more about, as you put it "a way of life".

 

[smaller]

Excellent point, Joe. Because of the man-made doctrine of sola-fide, many Protestants falsely separate faith and good deeds. As I've said many times before, God wants it all, not just a one-time "acceptance", but a lifelong dedication to Him, sometimes reaffirming that "dedication" every minute (in my case, anyway).

Salvation to Catholics is less about Heaven and more about, as you put it "a way of life".

Love is Gods Spirit, which is 'within' in the heart.

That is where His Good Work begins. Those who desire to be seen as 'good deed' workers on the outside apart from the Spirit within can certainly be puttin' on a good show, but that does not mean love in the heart is not 'A Working of God' within them.

Good workers desiring to 'have credit' for external works while internally and in reality live in condemnation to other people belie what is within them regardless of the 'works.'

I'm sure Judas thought himself very good working and pious keeping track of money for the poor. His heart was filled with evil from the evil one.

Internally is where all these matters are to be viewed and understood. The claims of 'Word' alone matter not one whit without The Spirit of the Living God within.

s

 

[ivdavid]

Because of the man-made doctrine of sola-fide, many Protestants falsely separate faith and good deeds.

I'm not trying to defend any one position here - my intent is only to get clarification. As I've understood you, you are saying that faith alone is insufficient, there must also be good deeds. If I've got this right, then you are still treating faith and good deeds as separate activities and are stressing that both activities have to be simultaneously performed. In that sense, what faith must we have while we are performing good deeds?
I'd like to know what we have to believe for one's good deeds to be good indeed.

And do you happen to believe that a person who is not a believer could ever perform a good deed in the sight of God?

Also have a look-in on post#117 whenever you get the time. A short response would do for now. Thank you.

 

[dadof10]

First you say:

There is exactly zero recording in the N.T. of a single believer, eternally lost. Therefore it is a contrivance of men. I call such actions the actions of wolves in sheep cloth.

So, unless there is a "recording" of a believer being eternally lost, the doctrine that a believer can lose his salvation is a "contrivance of man".

To my statement: "As far as I know, nowhere does Scripture say that ANYONE, believer or not, is in Hell." You reply:

Excellent fact. Don't you think that if there is a reward, for example, as little as providing a cup of water, that works are looked upon 'very' favorably by God?

And:

I believe eternal hell is beyond question, both eternal and punishing.

And:

Let there be no doubt. God has factually determined punishment upon 'every sinner.'

So, there is no "recording" in Scripture of ANYONE burning in Hell, but you believe there are people in Hell? How is this not a "contrivance of man", according to you? As you admit, there doesn't need to be a "recording" for the doctrine to be true.

I have a hard time reconciling 'reward' to equal 'eternal punishment in fire.'

Personally it would be very hard not to see some good in everyone regardless and also to both pray and hope for the very best for them 'if' that is what I desired from God for myself.

Just my view of course. But if the big "I" hopes for eternal reward, it may very well be incumbent upon me to first and foremost 'hope for that' for all other people FIRST. If not, I may actually be as deceived as Haman, thinking that the big "I" have the Kings favor when in fact the gallows were awaiting he and his family.



I believe eternal hell is beyond question, both eternal and punishing. We also know for a fact that the devil and his messengers will be there.

Again, where it gets really dicey for me is seeing that those entities do factually operate on a multitude of levels within every person. This fact alone defers my own judgment to that working in anyone and provides a very interesting fulcrum of understanding.



Let there be no doubt. God has factually determined punishment upon 'every sinner.'

Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.



My observation on rewards is A. None of us do good at all times. B. We all sin and continue to do so i.e. we, even as believers do goat works and do not always do 'sheep works.' This unequivocally places us in a 'mixed camp' with 'goat works.' The extreme proclivity of believers in general is to only see their 'sheep works' side and ignore the fact of the 'goat works' side, all the while proclaiming 'eternal woe' on other people. To me that is the exact measure of a hypocrite, which same Jesus hated. I believe 'works' include HONESTY about our situation, and when we 'do that' we are enabled to look more favorably upon our neighbors. To me, this is 'a work.' A 'sheep' work and an eternally favorable 'work.'


Never said otherwise.


A lot of people like to throw that term around. Few understand it.



I often hear that, but it is just another strawman. IF the devil inserts temptation thoughts in any persons mind or even worse, commits theft of Word from a persons heart, which is factually a sin of theft, that SIN was committed within them by the DEVIL. It had zero to do with the person. So the DEVIL made no one do anything. The 'devil' himself 'did it.' Please apply a tad of logic to that fact if you are able.

I don't have time to go off in all directions with you, Smaller. If you want to attempt to prove that Dualism is a Biblical doctrine, please start a thread on it. This one is about James 2.

As to James in general, I accept the entirety therein.

Those who show mercy shall same receive.

On the other hand, the person 'working' their faith in the hope that God doesn't burn them alive forever is, imho, a slave of personal fear for their own hide, and no servant of God whatsoever.

Such have no understandings of eternal mercy, which at it's essence means exactly that.

Where does James speak of mercy here? This isn't about mercy just because there is an example of a poor man. Sheesh...

Since you keep speaking in platitudes, I'll simply post a few verses and you can interpret them for us.

"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?" (James (RSV) 2)

No mention of "mercy".

"If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." (James (RSV) 2)

Again, no mention of mercy?

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God." (James (RSV) 2)

So, what justified Abraham? Not mercy.

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James (RSV) 2)

Is man justified by faith alone?...And no mention of mercy.

"And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?" (James (RSV) 2)

How was Rahab justified? By mercy? Well, yes, but that's not the point here.

If you think the main point of James is "Those who show mercy shall same receive", you need to read it again so you understand what he's really getting at.

 

[tjw]

What about Acts 16?

30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 16 - Passage Lookup - King James Version - BibleGateway.com


He asks the exact question, "What must I do to be saved?". And the respose was/is clear: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Doesn't this indicate that works are the result of faith?

 

[smaller]

First you say:
So, unless there is a "recording" of a believer being eternally lost, the doctrine that a believer can lose his salvation is a "contrivance of man".

Never said a believer couldn't fall in this present life. That does not however automatically equate to eternal torture in fire.

I believe it is reasonable to expect not just one or two references, but a vast array of same to legitimate the latter 'for believers.'

To my statement: "As far as I know, nowhere does Scripture say that ANYONE, believer or not, is in Hell." You reply:

So, there is no "recording" in Scripture of ANYONE burning in Hell, but you believe there are people in Hell?

Never said that. Sorry.

How is this not a "contrivance of man", according to you? As you admit, there doesn't need to be a "recording" for the doctrine to be true.

It's perhaps a bit more complex of a subject than what you apparently see. I hesitate as a 'confessed sinner' to think I see a view that isn't there.

I don't have time to go off in all directions with you, Smaller. If you want to attempt to prove that Dualism is a Biblical doctrine, please start a thread on it.

You brought it up pal. Don't spin it my way. I don't hold to it anyway.

This one is about James 2.
Where does James speak of mercy here? This isn't about mercy just because there is an example of a poor man. Sheesh...

You asked about James 2. I responded:

James 2:13
because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

kinda goes along with this fact:

Matthew 5:7
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.

Since you keep speaking in platitudes, I'll simply post a few verses and you can interpret them for us.

"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?" (James (RSV) 2)

No mention of "mercy".

Many so called 'works' adherents are quick to salve their own 'works' with mercy and quicker to condemn others. What do you expect me to say? Fruit is evident or not in the holders of same.

If you want to judge someone to burn alive for lack of works, why don't you take the merciful side and see the reward for a cup of water given? Not enuf 4 U? I'd be hard pressed not to find something good about everyone.

"If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." (James (RSV) 2)

Again, no mention of mercy?

Depends on what yer trying to see. I see James 2:13 resoundingly and consider that mercy is a 'good work' of the heart that it may be incumbent to give if one expects same.

How would you reconcile your view with this?

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

You look for 'works' so you can condemn a fellow human being. I am thankful for the receipt of mercy and freely measure same I RECEIVED unto others.

Therein 'our works' surely differ. Though we both believe in 'works' you do so to justify your theological position and save yourself. I hope that all will receive what I believe I have received, and would NOT DARE to venture headlong into condemnation over 'works' if I thought Gods Mercy was sufficient for 'others.'

That might appear to be a huge chasm between us, both of us still on 'works.'

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God." (James (RSV) 2)

So, what justified Abraham? Not mercy.

Any who view works apart from God are just kidding themselves anyway. You haven't got a thing that God needs in order to spare yer hide. Who are you kidding? People who 'work' in order to 'save their own hide' are again, servants of personal fear and self preservation. Though I am glad for their works and I DO believe they are saved, I do NOT admire their tag along, all the while giving that cup of water and simultaneously stating, 'if you don't believe like ME, yer gonna fry.' Seems to offset loving them for some odd reason. go figure.

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James (RSV) 2)

Is man justified by faith alone?...And no mention of mercy.

Please see JUDE above. Where we part ways is using works to spread condemnation to others. I don't consider that a sinning 'good worker' has any business in that arena to others, and if they had their head screwed on straight, they would, IF they bothered to look hard enough, find GOOD WORKS in every person. Such would also be 'led' by The Spirit to understand that there is more than one way to find proper judgment.

"And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?" (James (RSV) 2)

How was Rahab justified? By mercy? Well, yes, but that's not the point here.

If you think the main point of James is "Those who show mercy shall same receive", you need to read it again so you understand what he's really getting at.

My question to 'works believers' who use works as a basis of eternal condemnation of their neighbors is:

What is YOUR APPARENT WORK in that bottom line? It may appear to me that you show no mercy whatsoever and your work is self serving ONLY.

It always fascinates me to reason with believers to actually 'love' their fellow man as the essence of 'good works.' Mercy and Hope for them would be right up there with that measure as well. Cups of water are near nothing by comparison, but they certainly won't hurt the cause of ANY of us.

enjoy!

s

 

[francisdesales]

Well, let's say believers in general, and I'll be the first to admit that I do both goat works and not always sheep works.

It's not about "goat" and "sheep" works - which the parable makes no mention. It is about a way of life! You are again relegating loving actions towards our neighbor to entries into a "salvation ledger".

To say we don't sin is to be called a liar, according to John. Part of our GROWTH in Christ IS to love more and more over time. Remember, the life in Christ is GROWTH. This means that we become more virtuous - we more often say "yes" during those daily opportunities that God places us in to love, to feed the poor, etc...

Every Christian, since they are GROWING (hopefully), sin - or refuse to do the good they know they should do. (James). Have you read the Epistles of Paul? Paul is constantly making statements about Christians who are faltering!!! The entire point of James 2 is to awaken complacent Christians who say "my faith is good enough..."!!! Why do you think James mentions that NOT doing what we ought is a sin????

The life in Christ is intended to turn our will to God's will and say "yes" to doing His Will more often. As we do such things, we CAN say "yes, Jesus, I did feed you in the poor". That doesn't mean I did it every single time. That is not growth - that is perfection from day one. No one thinks they are perfect the day of their calling upon the Lord in faith. That defeats the very idea of sanctification, a PROCESS.

I'm just sayin' that 'more than likely' all of us have neglected to do 'sheep works' and have factually done 'goat works' by neglecting to 'do so.'

That is not the point of the parable. Clearly, Jesus is not saying "you ALWAYS fed me". He says "you fed me". When given the opportunity, you loved. Unfortunately, you are turning this into a debit/credit discussion, enamoured with some strange idea that one must be perfect.

EVERYONE sins, falters, fails to live up to God's commandments, at times in their lives. CLEARLY, if Jesus was saying what you suggest, one must be absolutely perfect, must ALWAYS feed the poor, visit the prisoners, clothe the naked, etc. NO ONE does that in every single case. Since Jesus is not speaking rhetorically, but practically, we can be assured that we do not worry about our eternal salvation IF we failed one time to feed someone, worried about our one, as you would say, "goat action".

Jesus is not talking about animals that morph back and forth between sheep today and goat tomorrow and sheep again next week, depending upon whether you said "yes" today. He is judging AT THE END OF TIME!!! NOT DAILY!!!

The "animal" refers to our overall disposition towards others - knowing full well that no one perfectly matches a "sheep" always. We are classified as "sheep" or "goat" based upon the COURSE OF OUR LIVES, not a daily judgment that moves back and forth!!!

You are welcome to claim otherwise for your 'self.' I'm on the record for my 'self' and believe that is an honest statement from moi.

As I already said, turning this into a discussion about me and any perfection or lack thereof has absolutely nothing to do with what you asked (works failure) or of my own personal walk.

Did I say that I walk perfectly in the ways of the Lord at all times? OF course not, I would be a liar if I claimed to be sinless. Your "for the record" is false humility, I already KNOW you are not perfect - no one on this forum is perfect...

Failure to 'do so' is the work of the goats therein. Failure to 'do so' is just an excuser of that failure.

Wrong, as explained above. Do you think Jesus was so confused that he was saying that a person ALWAYS "fed me" when confronted with a hungry person, or a naked person or ALWAYS visited Him in prison??? You are so intent on making the "sheep" absolutely perfect - when the Scriptures say that this is IMPOSSIBLE!!! The number of sheep must be very small in heaven, by your count...

He's quite clear that failure to do those works are goat works, period.

He never says anything about "goat works". YOU say that... Judgment is not about saying "see, you did a goat work June 14, 2011. Hit the road..."

He calls a person who REFUSES to love and act over the COURSE OF HIS LIFE - a goat... (not goat work)

Sin is not being called "goat works" here...!!!!

Ah, so an overall sheep worker and occasional goat worker? Is that really what you think? I say that is a person suffering under self justifications heavily weighted on only one side of the scale of fact.

Again, Jesus does not call sin "goat works". He is calling a goat a goat and a sheep a sheep. They don't change back and forth. Jesus doesn't say "well, June 10, 2011, you were a goat, but June 14, 2011, you were a sheep". He states that one is a sheep and another is a goat, recognized as such during JUDGMENT DAY.

Obviously, the to-be-judged sheep was not free from sinning. Your confusion lies in making the "goat"/"sheep" judgment based upon one single action. Thus, either a sheep is absolutely perfect, or you have a goat!!!

Let's see, if I gave a cup of water to hundreds of people, but only murdered one person, obviously the numbers would be 'in my favor' right?

Again, with the numbers. Where are you getting this from the parable? Where does Jesus state anything about HOW OFTEN you did one vs the other? He is speaking about the propensity to love, not the perfection of one's love...

According to your take, no one would be in heaven, using Matthew 25, because EVERYONE fails, EVERYONE falters. NO ONE completely does the will of the Father... We ALL have said "no" over the course of our lives.

You can feed a million people, but can one who truly loves murder someone? You just aren't getting it.

Faith works through love. I have a hard time making a division therein between the two.

James doesn't have a hard time doing it. He says faith without works is dead. OBVIOUSLY, it is possible to have faith without love. Neither does Paul. He says you could have faith TO MOVE MOUNTAINS (a lot of faith, I gather), but WITHOUT love, it is NOTHING. Both James and Paul understand that faith and love can be divided, that the former can exist without the later..

That's why I don't dangle other people over the eternally roasting flames with my 'theology.'

Red herring alert.

When did I "dangle other people" over the eternally roasting flames???

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Salvation to Catholics is less about Heaven and more about, as you put it "a way of life".

Very true. Salvation in the Bible refers much less to a "pie in the sky when we die". It is having life now and to the fullest, freedom from sin and freedom in Christ.

Regards

 

[smaller]

It's not about "goat" and "sheep" works - which the parable makes no mention. It is about a way of life!

God doesn't hold those good works against anyone. And the mention on the parable was from Matt. 25. Don't know what other parable you are mentioning.

To say we don't sin is to be called a liar, according to John.

Very true.

Part of our GROWTH in Christ IS to love more and more over time. Remember, the life in Christ is GROWTH. This means that we become more virtuous - we more often say "yes" during those daily opportunities that God places us in to love, to feed the poor, etc...

"Unbelievers" do so as well. Is that not an expression of God working in and through them?

Every Christian, since they are GROWING (hopefully), sin - or refuse to do the good they know they should do.

Sin can also be neglect or inaction, not conscious refusal. Your own Pope terms that the sin of omission.

(James). Have you read the Epistles of Paul? Paul is constantly making statements about Christians who are faltering!!! The entire point of James 2 is to awaken complacent Christians who say "my faith is good enough..."!!! Why do you think James mentions that NOT doing what we ought is a sin????

Were the measure 'constant' and 'total' 'only good works' you'd have a point. But that is not a part of our present condition whatsoever.

The life in Christ is intended to turn our will to God's will and say "yes" to doing His Will more often. As we do such things, we CAN say "yes, Jesus, I did feed you in the poor". That doesn't mean I did it every single time. That is not growth - that is perfection from day one. No one thinks they are perfect the day of their calling upon the Lord in faith. That defeats the very idea of sanctification, a PROCESS.

I might suspect being 'truthful' about the present condition of 'everyone' inclusive of ourselves would be quite in order at all times as well. The idea of the heavenly continual scorecard is a fallacy of 'most' works based theology.

That is not the point of the parable.

Quite clearly the point of the parable is doing or not. If one did not 'do' those works when encountered to 'do same' that is categorically 'not' doing same. On that basis 'all' believers do goat works. There is no other logical conclusion to observe.

Clearly, Jesus is not saying "you ALWAYS fed me". He says "you fed me". When given the opportunity, you loved. Unfortunately, you are turning this into a debit/credit discussion, enamoured with some strange idea that one must be perfect.

And you make the case of excuses to avoid the logical conclusion that believers do, factually, goat works.

EVERYONE sins, falters, fails to live up to God's commandments, at times in their lives. CLEARLY, if Jesus was saying what you suggest, one must be absolutely perfect, must ALWAYS feed the poor, visit the prisoners, clothe the naked, etc. NO ONE does that in every single case. Since Jesus is not speaking rhetorically, but practically, we can be assured that we do not worry about our eternal salvation IF we failed one time to feed someone, worried about our one, as you would say, "goat action".

Undoubtedly such inaction is goat works, myriad of excuses notwithstanding. The measure of works is continual, one or the other. The fact is that 'everyone' does both.

Jesus is not talking about animals that morph back and forth between sheep today and goat tomorrow and sheep again next week, depending upon whether you said "yes" today. He is judging AT THE END OF TIME!!! NOT DAILY!!!

Exactly. Believers expect only their sheep works to be accounted as sheep when the facts are that everyone does both.

The "animal" refers to our overall disposition towards others - knowing full well that no one perfectly matches a "sheep" always. We are classified as "sheep" or "goat" based upon the COURSE OF OUR LIVES, not a daily judgment that moves back and forth!!!

Again, the heavenly scorecard. Works believers think that if they have just one more notch on the sheep side, they are IN! And that the entirety of their personal goat works are then overlooked entirely. Granted, the RCC has given purgatory for extended suffering on the goat works side to their adherents. I might say that is just a get of of jail sometime in the future free card for their obvious problems. Grace in that case was not enough, or if it was it was not totally sufficient for them.

In any case such things as taking ones works and dangling ones feet over the fire for not are forms of threat and intimidation with an eternal twist. The works thereof then are categorically 'self' serving.

As I already said, turning this into a discussion about me and any perfection or lack thereof has absolutely nothing to do with what you asked (works failure) or of my own personal walk.

Pardon me if I insert the term you from time to time. When I do so I would always include myself and all others if the statement was applicable.

Did I say that I walk perfectly in the ways of the Lord at all times? OF course not, I would be a liar if I claimed to be sinless. Your "for the record" is false humility, I already KNOW you are not perfect - no one on this forum is perfect...

That is why works based systems of theology promote a mindset that is dual in nature, continually either justifying ones self or condemning ones self on the heavenly scorecard.

Wrong, as explained above. Do you think Jesus was so confused that he was saying that a person ALWAYS "fed me" when confronted with a hungry person, or a naked person or ALWAYS visited Him in prison??? You are so intent on making the "sheep" absolutely perfect - when the Scriptures say that this is IMPOSSIBLE!!! The number of sheep must be very small in heaven, by your count...

But you see neglect is exactly what Jesus is speaking of there. You openly confess that you do NOT do sheep works at all times, which instantly means those are factually 'goat works.' There is no other conclusion to be made.

He never says anything about "goat works". YOU say that... Judgment is not about saying "see, you did a goat work June 14, 2011. Hit the road..." He calls a person who REFUSES to love and act over the COURSE OF HIS LIFE - a goat... (not goat work)

The measure is 'did or didn't.' And the fact is that everyone is categorized as 'both' did or didn't. It is not a measure of "I" did more of one than the other.

Sin is not being called "goat works" here...!!!!

It is the basis of being sent to the fire.

Again, Jesus does not call sin "goat works". He is calling a goat a goat and a sheep a sheep. They don't change back and forth. Jesus doesn't say "well, June 10, 2011, you were a goat, but June 14, 2011, you were a sheep". He states that one is a sheep and another is a goat, recognized as such during JUDGMENT DAY.

Indeed. And He does so 'exactly' on the did or didn't scale. And the fact also is that everyone does both. So there ya go. I see no mention of 'most of the time' sheep works were done, therefore you are in. That is not the measure whatsoever. It is either did or did not.

Obviously, the to-be-judged sheep was not free from sinning.

Exactly. So 'why' would one lie to themselves and say when they 'didn't' it was not a goat work? The logic of 'self justification' is blinding them to the obvious.
[/quote]
Your confusion lies in making the "goat"/"sheep" judgment based upon one single action. Thus, either a sheep is absolutely perfect, or you have a goat!!![/quote]

Stated again and repeatedly...everyone does both. So, on the other side of the scale, on what basis if everyone does both, would you not see your 'unbelieving neighbors' who also did 'BOTH' as 'NOT' a sheep?

Again, with the numbers. Where are you getting this from the parable? Where does Jesus state anything about HOW OFTEN you did one vs the other? He is speaking about the propensity to love, not the perfection of one's love...

If you see the in between measure in Matt. 25, by all means point it out. It is the works based people who have created the 'scale' of 'most of the time' for themselves and 'seldom' for other people who do not believe 'like them.' That scale does not exist in the account.

According to your take, no one would be in heaven, using Matthew 25, because EVERYONE fails, EVERYONE falters. NO ONE completely does the will of the Father... We ALL have said "no" over the course of our lives.

Actually no. There is an entirely different way of viewing the matters if we are honest within ourselves.

You can feed a million people, but can one who truly loves murder someone? You just aren't getting it.

I was pointing out the difficulties of using a scale.

-faith- WITHOUT love -is NOTHING.

Emphasis "LOVE." That is the spiritual measure' that Jesus is employing in the parable of Matt. 25 and it is also the 'exact' determination of James in deploying the Royal Law, to love our neighbors as ourselves. James goes on to elaborate what should NOT happen if one is operating in the Royal Law:

James 3:
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

The systems of works based salvation is undoubted used to curse men at a minimum to the potential of hell and to 'justify' the holders of same.

 

[francisdesales]

God doesn't hold those good works against anyone. And the mention on the parable was from Matt. 25. Don't know what other parable you are mentioning.

You keep refering to "goat works" and sheep works". Matthew 25 doesn't make any such mention of "goat works" vs "sheep works". That is an improper interpretation of the Scriptures.

Jesus judges the overall life of a person after they have died, and judges one to be a sheep or a goat. Nothing said about "sheep works" or goat works". Whether they are one or the other is NOT a matter of whether that person EVER refused to feed someone in need over the course of one's entire life. If it was, then NO ONE would enter heaven. Even the 'saved' sin when they do not do what they ought to do (James). Thus, Jesus is not judging "goat works" v "sheep works". He is judging whether one person loves over the course of their life. They are termed "sheep". NOT because they PERFECTLY followed the Law of Love. But because their internal disposition was and is holy - the will to do God's will, even if we sometimes fail.

Much of your post depends upon your mistaken assertion about 'sheep' and 'goat' works. This leads to two problems. First, using your terms, no one is perfectly a sheep. We all fail, sometimes, to do what we ought. Thus, by your definition, EVERYONE is a goat. On the other hand, even mass murderers have been known to give a glass of water to someone. Does this nullify all the - your term - "goat works"??? You can't have it EITHER way. Defining Jesus' parable in your manner will yield an empty heaven OR a full heaven, since EVERYONE, at one time or another has done an evil deed and a good deed...

Thus, "goat works" and "sheep works" invariably fails to correctly interpret the Scriptures. Jesus is not saying that everyone is going to hell, or everyone is going to heaven...

Sin can also be neglect or inaction, not conscious refusal. Your own Pope terms that the sin of omission.

Perhaps you missed the fact that I said the same thing in my last post, even refering to where it is found in the Bible (James)...???

The idea of the heavenly continual scorecard is a fallacy of 'most' works based theology.

As far as I know, there are no Christian communities that present a "works-based salvation" theology. NO ONE makes that claim. I suggest you are misrepresenting what is being said - that a person needs to have faith working in love - to enter the Kingdom. No one says that "my work entitles me to heaven". View my signature, for example. Just because God requires that I obey the Commandments do not mean that I abide by a "works salvation", since it is not I alone obeying the Commandments. It is only through the Spirit that I can even say "Jesus is Lord", so how could I take credit or expect wages for something that I absolutely needed grace to accomplish???

Quite clearly the point of the parable is doing or not.

Ah, you are getting it...

Which takes us full circle - back to my first post that shows you are mistaken about "nowhere does the Bible speak of works failure"...

Granted, the RCC has given purgatory for extended suffering on the goat works side to their adherents. I might say that is just a get of of jail sometime in the future free card for their obvious problems. Grace in that case was not enough, or if it was it was not totally sufficient for them.

You completely misunderstand the concept of Purgatory. Perhaps some day, I can correct that false understanding, as well..

In any case such things as taking ones works and dangling ones feet over the fire for not are forms of threat and intimidation with an eternal twist. The works thereof then are categorically 'self' serving.

Faith without works of love are not salvific. The bible itself "dangles one's feet over the fire" - if you will. Have you read the last couple verses of the parable??? Apparently not. People whose life has no repentance and is not one of love cannot enter the Kingdom.

But you see neglect is exactly what Jesus is speaking of there. You openly confess that you do NOT do sheep works at all times, which instantly means those are factually 'goat works.' There is no other conclusion to be made.

Exactly, which means your definitions fail. By your reckoning, everyone is either in heaven or in hell. Think about it...

Emphasis "LOVE." That is the spiritual measure' that Jesus is employing in the parable of Matt. 25 and it is also the 'exact' determination of James in deploying the Royal Law, to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Agreed. However, as I have pointed out, no one perfectly loves their neighbor as themselves. Thus, the all or nothing just doesn't work.

The systems of works based salvation is undoubted used to curse men at a minimum to the potential of hell and to 'justify' the holders of same.

This has no bearing on the initial question you asked about "works failure". I gave you an entire chapter with three parables that distinctly point out your error. There is no need for sour grapes...

Regards

 

[smaller]

You keep refering to "goat works" and sheep works". Matthew 25 doesn't make any such mention of "goat works" vs "sheep works". That is an improper interpretation of the Scriptures.

Pardon my muffled laughter. The 'works' of both sheep and goats are there for viewing. I hope you don't need me to point out the obvious?

Jesus judges the overall life of a person after they have died, and judges one to be a sheep or a goat.

That is your insertion. In the account of Matt. 25 sheep and goats are 'separated' according to their 'works' or 'lack of same.' The parable is also about thee 'final separation' of these two, and the goats are sent to the flames.

Nothing said about "sheep works" or goat works". Whether they are one or the other is NOT a matter of whether that person EVER refused to feed someone in need over the course of one's entire life.

Ok, here, Matt. 25:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


SHEEP WORKS:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Now are you 'sure' you don't see 'sheep works' there. heh heh heh

And conversely, the goats didn't do the same things. No need to state the obvious. The above is the basis of separation. You are welcome to deny that there are sheep works there and that these works are the basis of separation.

If it was, then NO ONE would enter heaven. Even the 'saved' sin when they do not do what they ought to do (James). Thus, Jesus is not judging "goat works" v "sheep works".

Quite obviously He IS. Would you care to insert some other meaning?

He is judging whether one person loves over the course of their life.

He is giving a very certain set of 'actions' aka 'works' OR conversely, the lack of same to separate these parties. It says nothing about an overall life or an overall balance or any such notion. It is a did or a didn't matter, period. There is no in between.

They are termed "sheep". NOT because they PERFECTLY followed the Law of Love. But because their internal disposition was and is holy - the will to do God's will, even if we sometimes fail.

The basis is quite clearly delineated as the actions described therein.

Much of your post depends upon your mistaken assertion about 'sheep' and 'goat' works. This leads to two problems. First, using your terms, no one is perfectly a sheep.

That is exactly my point of factual observation. There is no use for any of us to lie to ourselves, is there? Gods Words should not rightfully cause us to lie against what we can see with our own eyes.

We all fail, sometimes, to do what we ought.

No doubt.

Thus, by your definition, EVERYONE is a goat.

I have never stated such. Please do not leap to false conclusions for me. I have stated repeatedly herein just as you have. We all DO BOTH. There is no other conclusion to be made because it is based upon open fact.

The problem with 'works' believers is that they think they magically eradicate 'goat works' (lack of doing the works) by doing some certain set of 'rituals.' I don't see that option quite frankly. You either did them or you didn't. The rituals do not a sheep make.

On the other hand, even mass murderers have been known to give a glass of water to someone.

Exactly AGAIN! Bravo!

Does this nullify all the - your term - "goat works"??? You can't have it EITHER way. Defining Jesus' parable in your manner will yield an empty heaven OR a full heaven, since EVERYONE, at one time or another has done an evil deed and a good deed...

Not at all. Heaven will be ENTIRELY filled with SHEEP and hell will be ENTIRELY filled with GOATS. Very simple.

So, using the 'works' measure and everyone having done BOTH...what conclusion should that lead you to?

Thus, "goat works" and "sheep works" invariably fails to correctly interpret the Scriptures. Jesus is not saying that everyone is going to hell, or everyone is going to heaven...

On the contrary. There is a separation of the parties, and the non-DOERS are clearly going to FRY.

As far as I know, there are no Christian communities that present a "works-based salvation" theology. NO ONE makes that claim.

Who are you kidding? The RCC has held that position from the beginning, and I AGREE with them. God is not going to burn SHEEP for doing 'GOOD WORKS.' That is easy to see.

I suggest you are misrepresenting what is being said - that a person needs to have faith working in love - to enter the Kingdom. No one says that "my work entitles me to heaven".

The sheep works are an expression of SHEEP. You yourself have stated the identical conclusion. Works are associated with real faith.

Which takes us full circle - back to my first post that shows you are mistaken about "nowhere does the Bible speak of works failure"...

And you still have a problem, that being 'everyone' does BOTH. So what are you (or I) HALF sheep and HALF goat...?

I am going to have some fun with you whether you like it or not.

Faith without works of love are not salvific.

Well then I must ask...are GOAT WORKS with faith OK?

The bible itself "dangles one's feet over the fire" - if you will.

I don't doubt that one little bit. But I do not believe SHEEP are therein dangled. Therein is the heart of our difference. One does not magically turn into A SHEEP by threatening to roast them.

Have you read the last couple verses of the parable??? Apparently not. People whose life has no repentance and is not one of love cannot enter the Kingdom.

There really is no deferring to the matter. There are clearly works and only TWO parties, sheep and goat and they are divided exactly upon the lines of either doing SHEEP WORK or neglecting to do same.

Exactly, which means your definitions fail. By your reckoning, everyone is either in heaven or in hell. Think about it...

I have zero issues with ALL sheep being in heaven and ALL goats in hell. And I have no issues with the basis of division of these parties.

Agreed. However, as I have pointed out, no one perfectly loves their neighbor as themselves. Thus, the all or nothing just doesn't work.

Ah, so you're back to the same 'sometimes we do' and 'sometimes we don't.' And that is an honest statement.

This has no bearing on the initial question you asked about "works failure". I gave you an entire chapter with three parables that distinctly point out your error. There is no need for sour grapes...

Well, you want to use 'faith' doing 'works' to justify the basis of the existence of faith. I could say that all sheep who do sheep works 'have faith' evident by their work, and conversely...do the math.

What conclusion should you come to? That 'goats' are excused of their lack of works on the basis of faith or ritualistic practices?

There is only one honest conclusion available to any honest believer. We 'all' both believer and unbeliever alike DO BOTH.

enjoy!

s

 

[Drew]

That is your insertion.....

fds is correct to assert that "Jesus judges the overall life of a person after they have died":

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

This is from Romans 2, where Paul describes a future day of judgement for all humankind. Now I am not commenting on the Matthew 25 passage and what it means - I am simply saying that fds is correct in the specific statement of his, regardless of what Matthew 25 is saying.

 

[smaller]

fds is correct to assert that "Jesus judges the overall life of a person after they have died":

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

This is from Romans 2, where Paul describes a future day of judgement for all humankind. Now I am not commenting on the Matthew 25 passage and what it means - I am simply saying that fds is correct in the specific statement of his, regardless of what Matthew 25 is saying.

The statement of fact remains. Any honest look at anyone will yield the fact that both good works and non good works have ensued in the lives of every person. If you come to a conclusion that says 'regardless' of what God in Christ says in Matt. 25, you are throwing away what is taught therein. Matt. 25 and every Word of God is in Total and Complete Harmony, even if we do not 'get it.'

An 'honest' believer in heart will observe Matt. 25 and come to an likewise honest conclusion and not exempt themselves from having done 'goat works' which is 'a lack of works.'

A hypocrite on the other hand will seek to 'excuse' their lack of performance and seek to justify themselves instead when there is no justification available for same.

It is at the exact moment of honesty that we understand our dire NEED for Gods Mercy...and that Divine Mercy is also exactly what God will deploy in the final analysis, to THE SHEEP only.

If there is an over riding value of the sheep, it would be honesty. No lying sheep will be slipping in the door to receive MERCY by overlooking the obvious. That they have done GOAT WORKS and they therefore have NEED, deep NEED of what God Has for them.

We cannot by our 'works' seeing we have both, then demand that God provide an applique of DIVINE MERCY. That is only HIS to give and HIS to determine regardless of 'works.'

Romans 9;
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

ALL will stand before The Judgment Seat. ALL will give an account of 'everything' they did or didn't do.

Some will receive Divine Mercy only in accord with Gods Sole Decision to grant same.

Goats can bleat all they want to sound like sheep. It will avail them nothing.

enjoy!

s