Five Primary Doctrines

[Brother Mike]

A poverty-stricken student from Oral Roberts University attended my father's Tulsa seminars in the mid '60s and got turned onto the Word of God. The student was deeply in debt, but he desperately wanted my father's tapes.

yes, we know, I have personally met brother Hagin Jr. My wife spoke with him and his wife also at the Olive Garden of all places in Brasons. If you read Kenneth's History, Glory is his 3rd wife and those tapes did help get him on track to ORU. He never personally even knew Kenneth Hagin Sr though or studied under him.

Brother Keith Moore was personally close to the Hagins and severed under them for over 20 years. Through those relationships He met Kenneth Copeland, though Copeland by then was raising up His own student by the name of Jerry Savelle.

I'm in Rockford. I have a childhood friend living in Branson. Mike McDermott. He is a Christian author... He may Pastor too. Not sure though...

Rockford!!! Cool. Mike McDermott? umm. There are so many great works of God here. If you visited it you would feel like amazed at the difference in people from IL and from here. I was floored though we do have Hillbilly's. My sons first day of School there was a Ox hooked to a cart in front of the Middle school and I am like what the heck??? Mind you, we just came from Champagin IL. I had no idea what my son was going to be taught.

Branson is an amazing place, We have a very nice Baptist Church here (Skyline) that has some amazing people. We have another Baptist Church down the road that is just packed full from when it started. We have a few Popular pentecostal churches, My Church "Faith Life Church" by Kieth Moore.
I think the most amazing thing is that many claim God told them to come here. Baptist, Methodist it don't seem to matter. Here I thought I was special being told by God to come... ummm. Not so much.
We have the 10 commandments posted on our main strip Hwy 76 which is also amazing. They would have none of that In Champaign where I am from.

Blessings..

Mike.

 

[gr8grace]

where is does your church put its statement of faith? I could not find it.

 

[Yodas_Prodigy]

What did Jesus say when they were about to stone him for making himself out to be God'?

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Ye are what? Theos. Your like me he said, why stone me? What he give them, the passage in Psalms. What happens if your not perfect and like a child of God? You get judged!!! Why do you get judged? because you were not created to be a mere man, but have the creators nature and characteristic in you.

I and the Father are one. These words nearly got Jesus stoned. Why, because he made himself out to be equal with God. Now we know that Jesus is God. My first question is clear. Is anyone equal to the Triune God? If the answer is No, then case is closed. Men are not Gods. Are we made in His image? Yes. But that doesn’t place us in the God-Class.

What is Jesus trying to say in this passage?

First, He says that he is equal with God. Second, He asks which of His good works was he being stoned? Then he makes an interesting comparison. He compares himself to the sons of God. How does he do that?

35 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 36</SPAN> If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— 37 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

The word of God first came to the Sons of God – Angels. And Jesus point is that if they are sons of God, He all the more, because of His good works, should be called The Son of God. And here are some proofs that the scriptures, which can’t be broken were first given to the sons of God (Angels etc.)

For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; (Hebrews 2:2, KJV)

Note that this agrees with John 10:35.

Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. (Acts 7:52-53, KJV)

“We have learned the noblest of our doctrines and the holiest of our laws from the ANGELS sent by God.†Antiquities XV 5:3 (Whiston's Translation); Josephus

Here's one from the Prophet where we see the role of the divine council:

Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins. The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. (Isaiah 40:1-8, KJV)

http://hebrew.wisc.edu/~rltroxel/SeitzCouncil.pdf

John 10:27-38

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.</SPAN> 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.â€
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?†33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.†34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— 36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understan that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.â€

Blessings,

YP

 

[Brother Mike]

I and the Father are one. These words nearly got Jesus stoned. Why, because he made himself out to be equal with God. Now we know that Jesus is God. My first question is clear. Is anyone equal to the Triune God? If the answer is No, then case is closed. Men are not Gods. Are we made in His image? Yes. But that doesn’t place us in the God-Class.

Brother please......... yes it did about get him stoned. Jesus said we are one in him also making use one in them, making us God the father.

This needs to be posted in our Trinity Discussion. Because I believe this discussion is going to come down to this understanding here.

The word of God first came to the Sons of God – Angels. And Jesus point is that if they are sons of God, He all the more, because of His good works, should be called The Son of God. And here are some proofs that the scriptures, which can’t be broken were first given to the sons of God (Angels etc.)

your also seem to miss the definition of "god" as given in the bible.

Jesus called them Theos. You can't dodge that at all. That means gods. yes the angels were judged called the sons of God......... However Psalm does not call them sons of God but Children of God.

you know what Yodas_Prodigy. You have a choice. Stick to the exact Word, or hunt some garbage on the Internet that is stuck in some religion. Your choice. I suggest strongly you stick with the Word and have the Word change your theology.
Triune God? Seriously Where is that at? Divine Council? Where? This seems close to a copy and past I had when I had this same conversation a few years ago. I believe you can do better than this and look for yourself.

The Angels were judged.......... Called the sons of God................That is correct. Lets continue this line of reasoning.........

Hell was made for who? (Devil and his angels)

Who else has to go to hell. (Not me or you but other folks are going)

Now, back to what Jesus said.

Ye are Theos, End of story, He called them gods. The Holy Spirit could have hand picked any other word but the Holy Spirit did not. Satan is also called God. Wow, now we got two, Us and Satan but Satan got a title, we did not. God the father is a title. God is not a title unless defined in the article.

There is no divine council in Psalm 82. I know folks have tried to add one there, but it is not so.

'ĕlôhı̂ym stands in the ‛êdâh (Assembly of People, Congregation, Multitude, people, swarm, a family, big crowd) Among the El's........ (Possibly gods, but can be mighty, can Be God the creator) He judges among the 'ĕlôhı̂ym's.................

What did Jesus quote? Psalm 82, Who did He call gods, made just like him? who is getting judged? Angels?? If Jesus meant Angels He would have said aggelos........... No, He called those people gods.

Psa 82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Psa 82:4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

Where are the angels ever given charge to defend the poor? NOWHERE!!!

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Only one Angel was ever called god, that would be Mr. Devil but it was with a title of God of this World. He is not even better created than we are. Angels were never called Children of God, we are.

You are not a half a cut above a monkey, Your made just like your Father in Heaven. Wow................ Your his offspring (Acts) your born of the Word, each seed produces after it's own kind. How hard is this? I will tell you why it's hard. You have a stupid doctrine in your way. That is why. You can't get around that Word god, a European word from somewhere.

Yodas_Prodigy
No more copy and paste Brother, you can do better than this. Same old religious nonsense. ... Please. And to actually to hand me someone else doctrine as If I not seen that.

What are you then? Part ape? Half an angel? What seed were you born from? You are a child of the King, Just like Him, John says. Satan got the title God, but He was a created servant and disobedient one at that. Jesus did not give us a title because we are Children just Like our Father that made us. Same class as He is in, god............. Just get over it, please. Your nothing less and will be standing with me judging the angles.

Others created in the similitude of God, who had not accepted Gods free Gift the Lord Jesus, will die like a man, and be thrown into Hell just like the prince. Satan and his angels.

no more copy and past stuff.......... I want to know what you say, not what others say. If you don't know, then just say so, it's OK>

Blessings

Mike.

 

[Elijah674]

Psalm 82
God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.

I don't listen to Dr. Leroy Thompson. I have no issue with him though, and I understand His Money Cometh video. Learn to be honest, then come back and talk with me.

BTW wife and I from Champaign IL. Chicago was about 2 1/2 hour drive.

Just one more?

It was Christ who taught us to pray... ['Thy will] be done'. Surely the best agents of satan will find Matt. 24

No Brother, Jesus never Taught us that. He said pray this way, That God's will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Find out what God wants in Heaven, you have the will for earth. God does not have two different wills. He said whatsoever you asked for, Believe that you receive. He taught that.
John taught that we Pray according to the Will of God, that way we know He hears us (Having confidence) and if He hears we have the petition desired of him.

Jesus in the Garden was not having a healing meeting. Jesus also knew the Will of God, knew he was going to the cross. He said, take this cup from me, nevertheless........... Thy will be done. Jesus is not confused by the will of God, and we should not be confused.

If you want a Be thy Will prayer for healing then you can use the one in Luke. We need to use the right scriptures for the right situations.

Someone full of leprosy fights through the crowd and says, "Lord you can do all things, if it be thy will thou canst Heal me."

This is a prayer much like what is prayed today, "Lord you can do all things, Make mountains, if it be your will Lord, I ask you to heal me."

Jesus already answered this pray and gave the Lords will concerning Healing.

Jesus put his hand on this man full of Leprosy and said "I WILL, BE THOU CLEAN"

So Jesus already answered for you the Be thy will request for healing in Luke chapter 5. Jesus was not having a healing meeting in the Garden, nor was he confused about the Will of God.

I hope this helps you.

Blessings

Mike.

Well that post was not meant for you alone! The subject is to be made top priority for a false gospel Christ warms us of in the ending of time. But that is exactly what CHRIST SAID! ;)
All answered prayer are subject to Jehovah Gods will!

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

Just more Truth. Who answers these ones sprayers??

Isa.59
[1] Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
[2] But [[your iniquities]] have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, [[that he will not hear.]]

But you can be sure that satan is listening!

--Elijah

 

[Brother Mike]

Just more Truth. Who answers these ones sprayers??

Isa.59
[1] Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
[2] But [[your iniquities]] have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, [[that he will not hear.]]

But you can be sure that satan is listening!

Could you give a run down here of what your trying to convey? It seems like you came here with a couple ideas then got a phone call.

Blessings and thank you.

Mike.

 

[Tallen]

If you read Kenneth's History, Glory is his 3rd wife and those tapes did help get him on track to ORU.

Which disqualifies him from being a pastor.

This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. (1 Timothy 3:1-6, KJV)

In fact, he is disqualified on several points. How can anyone that lives his life of opulence and in luxury, hoard wealth and property, preach a message about gaining money and wealth, and stand with others in their "money cometh" display of unchristian character, not be greedy of filthy lucre and not covetous?

He never personally even knew Kenneth Hagin Sr though or studied under him.

This isn't true either. I've seen them together with my own eyes back in the 70's. Personally knew Copeland, and heard him talk about his relationship with Hagin. He knew him very well.

YP isn't lying, he is documenting his case as he goes.

 

[Tallen]

He never personally even knew Kenneth Hagin Sr though or studied under him.

Note here around 1:15 in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2V7KbbfRHA

Copeland and Hagin together, it seems Copeland is in the Reserved seats and Hagin has acknowledged him with his goofy nonsense. Furthermore, Copeland is going along with it.

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; (1 Timothy 3:2, KJV)

Sober: Gr. saphron: self-controlled, temperate, handling oneself in a discreet manner.

With this public demonstration of "drunkenness", their word not mine, and demonstrating unbridled uncotrolled behavior, they are demonstrating their own disqualification from leadership and pastoral care of the flock.

 

[Deborah13]

If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre

The apostle Paul was no spotless, Godly man when he changed. God made him a new creature. Whatever is in a person's life I think we all agree that when person is saved they are a forgiven of ALL past sins. God looks at them no more in judgment, so I think that means I shouldn't either.

I do think the idea that God blesses one's giving, has been corrupted by many. The message by some has gone so far off track that there are people who give in order to get. I don't think that is what God intended. Their giving is serving manna, not God. I seen this, it's not pretty.

I have no problem with any Christian having wealth. But I do look at the way they got that wealth. If it is obtained by corrupting the Word at the expense of others, it is wrong.

Something else I see sometimes is people talking about they missionary ministries that their church supports, or some other project. They don't have any problem with their pastor asking for money for these things and they are happy to give. But if the very same thing is asked for by a ministry that has a TV ministry as well, they accuse that ministry of being greedy WoF money mongers. Why is that?

 

[reba]

Lets not keep going with personalities Moderator
I understand it is difficult at times but lets try
​

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

Not necessarily directed at the last poster.

 

[Brother Mike]

Copeland and Hagin together, it seems Copeland is in the Reserved seats and Hagin has acknowledged him with his goofy nonsense. Furthermore, Copeland is going along with it.

Please Tallen...............Kenneth Copland stops by our church, sits in front often. He is not a pupil here. Kenneth had always stated that He wish he would have had more time with Brother Hagin. Hagin was a recluse. Some pictures of Kenneth and Hagin is a cut out of Brother Hagin. Seriously, Kenneth was never a Pupil of Brother Hagin.

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; (1 Timothy 3:2, KJV)

Sober: Gr. saphron: self-controlled, temperate, handling oneself in a discreet manner.

With this public demonstration of "drunkenness", their word not mine, and demonstrating unbridled uncotrolled behavior, they are demonstrating their own disqualification from leadership and pastoral care of the flock.

Oh, Tallen..................... you have never ever been in a room so full of the Holy Spirit where the presence of the Lord in joy just sweeps the place? Never? That is sad my brother, very sad. They were laughing together, and you find no Joy in the anointing, or laughing with your brothers and sisters in Christ. Wow, we are family, and you no Joy? Where is your joy at?

Luk_6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.

Jesus was not even against laughing. You never been in that type of presence? I feel for you. What is the flesh suppose to do in all that power and joy of the Holy Spirit? Flesh don't know how to respond. Flesh just falls apart because it's not able to grasp the love and joy of the Lord. Flesh can't handle it. If we sat you next to God you would just melt in a puddle. Even standing by an angle of the Lord, the Fear of the Lord radiates off these things so fierce that your knee's just buckle. You have no flesh strength.

In my 14 years, I have never been in a room like that myself..........................

However, I have had the Holy Spirit come on me and laugh, not like the video but the joy is pretty intense. I wish I was there or at some meeting like that. The Joy of the Lord is our strength, sometimes just being in the power of the Holy Spirit is good for us.

One time though, just once one of my brothers in Christ was about to be taken by ambulance. He did not want anyone near him so I started to pray in tongues to get God's advice. The Lord told me to just sit with him and take turn thanking God for things God done for us. My Brother was not really up to it as the Ambulance was on the way but He did. I thanked God for Earth worms to fish with. I went first and soon we both were just going back and forth.

Then suddenly the power of the anointing hit us. All over him then me and we both could not stop laughing. I think it was flesh trying to deal with what our bodies were experiencing.

Another time just praying the power came and I saw a cloud come down or something, very strange but the anointing was so strong I felt the paint was going to peel off the walls, I could hardly stand. I was by myself that time.

I understand what is going on in that video. I never been in a whole room like that, but I at least get it.

The girl in the Red hair was sort of creepy, but I guess we all laugh different.

But if the very same thing is asked for by a ministry that has a TV ministry as well, they accuse that ministry of being greedy WoF money mongers. Why is that?

That Money Hungry Copeland sent 4 million dollars to different Church groups to help in the Sandy clean up. Brother Copeland helps baptist it don't matter to him. He also told them if you need anything else just call his offices. He is very discreet about what He gives, but you would be amazed.

Mike.

 

[Deborah13]

That Money Hungry Copeland sent 4 million dollars to different Church groups to help in the Sandy clean up. Brother Copeland helps baptist it don't matter to him. He also told them if you need anything else just call his offices. He is very discreet about what He gives, but you would be amazed.

Brother Mike, I never singled out Kenneth Copeland as money hungry. As a matter of fact, my thoughts were more on a few others but actually I was thinking of some who are being accused of doing this and I don't see it in them or their ministries.

However, one that I like very much, I have only heard one time in several yrs. talk about tithing on TV and I do not agree with teaching tithing using Malachi. But at the same time he didn't go overboard in the teaching of "if you tithe 10%, the Lord will give back 10 or 100 times".
We do give to certain projects and to the general fund of this ministry. He teaches a pure message of Eph 2 "by grace, through faith, not works".

So what I am saying is that because someone has decided that there is a list of "five primary doctrines" then we need to make sure that the people we say are WoF, believe in these five things. Can these five things represent all those of some other WoF beliefs. Obviously not!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Can these five things represent all those of some other WoF beliefs. Obviously not!

If someone in WOF teaches false doctrine, and others in WOF embrace this person or persons, then there is a problem that is more deep rooted than what we can see on the surface.

 

[Deborah13]

If someone in WOF teaches false doctrine, and others in WOF embrace this person or persons, then there is a problem that is more deep rooted than what we can see on the surface.

What do you mean by embrace?

I believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today. There are many who don't. So that means they should turn their back and not embrace me as a fellow Christian because we have different doctrine in this area?

 

[Tallen]

Please Tallen...............Kenneth Copland stops by our church, sits in front often. He is not a pupil here. Kenneth had always stated that He wish he would have had more time with Brother Hagin. Hagin was a recluse. Some pictures of Kenneth and Hagin is a cut out of Brother Hagin. Seriously, Kenneth was never a Pupil of Brother Hagin.

I was addressing your statement that Copeland didn't know Hagin, when in fact he did know him. Also, he was a student of Hagin's, which he often brought up. If you think otherwise, you are mistaken.

 

[reba]

Easier to give money one has not worked to earn.

 

[Tallen]

The apostle Paul was no spotless, Godly man when he changed. God made him a new creature. Whatever is in a person's life I think we all agree that when person is saved they are a forgiven of ALL past sins. God looks at them no more in judgment, so I think that means I shouldn't either.

In case you didn't notice Deborah, I didn't put my words down for the qualification of a pastor..., it was the Apostle's words. The qualification is that one is to be the husband of one wife, not the husband of three wives.

I do agree with you that the idea that YHWH blesses one's giving is corrupted by many. Also, it isn't a Christians wealth that is in question..., it is the person's desire and demonstrated character that is.

 

[reba]

Hey guys this Copeland, Hagin relationship, is or isn't, you have stated your thoughts so let's it be... and move on.. Lets also remember this thread is should not be about personalities . Thanks Moderator

 

[Tallen]

Easier to give money one has not worked to earn.

Amen, and easy to keep a good chuck of what was given by others for yourself and give some of that away as "your ministry". This is not directed at you Reba, "your ministry" I'm using in a generic way. If a so called ministry, named after the person running it, takes in $10 million for a certain thing and the ministry keeps $3 million for itself, the $7 million given away for the need is far lacking what should have been given. There is not a single word in scripture that teaches such a practice.