For those who think they can “lose itâ€Â…

[jgredline]

AV, no sweat, but tell me, am I grasping at straws here? What, if anything in the Hebrew and Jewish books, do I need to apply to myself or the ekklesia?

Well, this is exactly it...Folks are applying things that were meant for Israel AKA the Jews to the Church....I think it was AV that mentioned that if people stopped applying what was meant for the jews to the church, then this issue of can one loose his salvation is settled...

It is absolutely bad hermeneutics to take verses out of context and this is the danger when one does not ''rightly'' divide the word of God for what was meant for the Jews and what was meant for Israel....

I asked earlier...Who was Hebrews written to? It was written to ''the hebrews''
While there is much there in that very theologically rich book and there are many things we can use in way of application, you can't use things like Hebrews 6:4-6 and apply it to the church when the context of this verse is speaking of Jews who ''played, pretended, tasted church'' but went back to judism because they were never saved....So this is a warning to the jews...and if someone wants to debate this passage, I will gladly do it in the debate forum....

Its looking at me again.... :robot:

 

[cyberjosh]

I just wonder why we want to attribute anything like this relating to Jewish beliefs when we claim we will be taken out of the world, or at least protected from God's Wrath, before His gathering of His people.

Well this is not to say God cannot be angry at our sin or grieved by it. Hebrews chapter 12 shows us that God will chastize those who are His to try to correct them. It is up to us to accept or reject such chastizement. You could run from it, and that is called back sliding, which in turn only brings more chastizement - although no doubt God's arms are open the whole time with grace, urging us to take it instead.

The Jews had their Book of Life; they also had the Book of the Dead too. My hope of salvation lies squarely on and in Jesus; I do not worry about whether or not my name will be blotted out of some Jewish Book of Life. I did no work to achieve my salvation; HE chose me for a purpose and I live out that purpose believing HE also has a purpose g=for me in the afterlife.

I thought this was a hypothetical situation, I'm not actually trying to make a big ordeal about it. I understand the grace of God and strive to walk in it and I have no doubt in my mind that if I walk in faith God will keep me from stumbling (1 Peter 1:5).

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

AV, no sweat, but tell me, am I grasping at straws here? What, if anything in the Hebrew and Jewish books, do I need to apply to myself or the ekklesia?

Wait now. You are not implying that the OT is useless are you?! God forbid. It is very important and provides the necessary back drop for the New Testament. In fact I've recently grown sick of not knowing alot about the OT and ever since I have studied it revelation after revleation has opened up to me and allowed me to see the richness behind the theology and ways of God in the New Testament which reveals the Old Testament. Paul even urges us to sing Psalms. Jesus said he came not to abolish but fulfill. What we lost was the ritualistic parts of the law, the parts that were shadows - where the substance was in Christ. The OT is very important, and as I noted in my post with all the verses Paul draws alot on Ezekiel for some of his backdrop arguements. A study of OT covenants is also very beneficial and makes a vital study to understanding the New Covenant as promised in Jeremiah and Ezekiel. I hope you don't down play God's ways - which have never changed. Sure, be careful not to apply things exclusively Jewish to the ekklesia (like many of the prophecies in Daniel) but much can be taken from the OT for the NT saints, for God's ways were equally Holy then as now. And we learn also the ways in which God judges - something which (luckily - experientially; not so lucky - knowledge-wise) NT saints don't know much of. When the NT makes the simple statement that God is righteous - where to we get the rich background of theology for it from? The revealed and inspired word of God in the OT, which was the Scripture of their day.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[unred typo]

Let's say that one can lose their salvation: How does one lose it?

It appears that we are focusing on sins of comission - but what about sins of ommission?

So - if we can lose our salvation - how does one go about losing it?

It seems to be a problem of perception. I know we say we are ‘saved,’ or someone else is ‘lost’ (hardly ever the reverse) but what we should be understanding is that while we are following Christ, we are kept ‘saved’ by the cleansing of the blood. By following Christ, I, of course mean, walking according to the way he taught, not just going to church and Bible study. When we leave those principles of love and forgiveness, mercy and humility, we are not walking in the light and are following the principles of the world, the flesh and the devil.

When we so incline our hearts to evil instead of good, we risk eternal damnation. It doesn’t matter if you are a Jew, Gentile, Baptist, Catholic, SDA, “born-again†whatever, if you forsake the following of Christ, you must repent. There is no respect of persons with God.

 

[AVBunyan]

Wait now. You are not implying that the OT is useless are you?!

Josh - of course not but scripture is is for doctrine first - get the doctrine straight before you go start applying application and don't turn an application, that may make good preaching, into a doctrine.

Doctrine - In Exodus the Lord gave specific orders on how to build the tabernacle for worship.

Application - we should also have order in our churches for worship but we do not build tabernacles.

Get the doctrine right first to whom it is intended for and for what age it is intended for then learn from other ages:

Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
1 Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples:

For our "learning" - don't take a doctrine meant for Israel, etc. (whether it is in the past [OT or Gospels] or the future) and slap it on the saint today - starts to get real ugly - Just look at 80% of the topics on this forum and others!

God bless

 

[Vic C.]

Wait now. You are not implying that the OT is useless are you?! God forbid....

... (snipped for space)

God Bless,

~Josh

Not at all Josh. Sorry, the question was specifically addressed to AV. He knows me and would have known I was speaking within the context of much of the OT's prophesies and promises. I guess my theology is leaning more towards a reformed view, specifically my eschatology. I understand how God has progressively revealed Himself throughout the OT. But I read it in it's Hebrew and Jewish context. Mesianic prophesy, Psalms and Proverbs, etc. being the exception. You have to admit, as you have, that much of the End Times prophesy in the OT is about and for them, not us.

For instance, you mentioned Daniel. I now read Daniel 9 and see it as being fulfilled. All 70 weeks. That's basically Reformed and Adventist Theology. Anyway, I just don't see worrying about losing something we didn't gain for ourselves in the first place, which brings us back on topic. 8-)

 

[Guest]

Not at all Josh. Sorry, the question was specifically addressed to AV. He knows me and would have known I was speaking within the context of much of the OT's prophesies and promises. I guess my theology is leaning more towards a reformed view, specifically my eschatology. I understand how God has progressively revealed Himself throughout the OT. But I read it in it's Hebrew and Jewish context. Mesianic prophesy, Psalms and Proverbs, etc. being the exception. You have to admit, as you have, that much of the End Times prophesy in the OT is about and for them, not us.

For instance, you mentioned Daniel. I now read Daniel 9 and see it as being fulfilled. All 70 weeks. That's basically Reformed and Adventist Theology. Anyway, I just don't see worrying about losing something we didn't gain for ourselves in the first place, which brings us back on topic. 8-)

Vic - that is exactly the point. We have been bought by God with the blood of Jesus Christ. We do not own ourselves, we cannot pay the price - so how can we lose that which we have not bought and that which we do not own?

 

[Vic C.]

Vic - that is exactly the point. We have been bought by God with the blood of Jesus Christ. We do not own ourselves, we cannot pay the price - so how can we lose that which we have not bought and that which we do not own?

We can't, we were never given the purchase receipt. Therefore, without that receipt, we cannot return ourselves. ;-)

 

[golfjack]

reply

I believe the Book of Hebrews was written to Believers. If one has Watered Down Calvanism, which to me says that a believer has no free will, then he must fit scripture like Heb. 6:4-6 to say Paul wasnt't speaking to believers. How one can do this, I have no idea? To me It's kind of a pet doctrine.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Vic C.]

Golfjack,

Read Clarke's commentary on this and let me know what you think. Thanks in advance.

http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkeheb6.htm

 

[unred typo]

Vic - that is exactly the point. We have been bought by God with the blood of Jesus Christ. We do not own ourselves, we cannot pay the price - so how can we lose that which we have not bought and that which we do not own?

Good point. So If you buy something and it doesn’t live up to your expectations, or perform as you intended or becomes warped and unusable, can you decide to throw it away or is there some law that says you purchased it so you must fix it or keep it forever and ever in it’s unusable condition? Personally, I would try to fix it but if it just can't be brought back to usuability, I would toss it out like salt that has lost it's savor or lukewarm coffee.

 

[handy]

Actually, I have been thinking about starting a thread on this...This is a very common mistake and causes and leads to much confusion...

Example...Hebrews...Who was this book written to?

jg, perhaps you should start a new thread. It seems senseless to me to discuss theology in the light of scripture if we are disputing whether or not certain scriptures apply. It just seems that it is going to be too easy to throw out any scriptures that doesn't fit into a certain theological POV by saying, "Well, that doesn't apply to the Body now does it!"

I believe in the whole "precept upon precept" approach, but we certainly need to be in agreement upon the foundation of the precept. I'll hold back on any more discussion regarding OSAS until we can work out this concept of exactly how to apply God's word.

I do agree that there are some exclusively 'Jewish' things in the Bible, don't get me wrong. But I cannot agree, at least at this time I am willing to listen, with the idea that 'rightly dividing God's word' means dividing it up into a 'them' verses 'us' among God's people. At this point in my understanding (which I must humbly state isn't that of a newbie exactly) to place the whole book of Hebrews and large sections of Romans upon the same level as the instructions regarding the temple seems absurd.

But, as I say, I am willing to listen. So, I'll not post more on this particular thread, but will wait to see if someone starts a thread on whether or not Hebrews applys to the Body.

AVBunyan, on the first page of this thread you said:

I doubt this thread will go anywhere but let’s try anyway.

:smt043 :smt005 :smt043 :smt005

 

[Vic C.]

Good point. So If you buy something and it doesn’t live up to your expectations, or perform as you intended or becomes warped and unusable, can you decide to throw it away or is there some law that says you purchased it so you must fix it or keep it forever and ever in it’s unusable condition? Personally, I would try to fix it but if it just can't be brought back to usuability, I would toss it out like salt that has lost it's savor or lukewarm coffee.

That's man's limited perspective. God's perspective is this:

He "buys' with the foreknowledge of already knowing

1) it's performance

2) He is capable of "fixing" it if it malfunctions. ;-)

You see, I don't especially care for the analogy that the Potter creates one way or another without caring enough for the creation to reshape it instead of discarding it.

I do like the analogy that God CAN reshape it once again to His image, That's perseverance of the saints. I like this song:

http://www.hotlyrics.net/lyrics/D/Darle ... _Hand.html

 

[unred typo]

AVBunyan, on the first page of this thread you said:

I doubt this thread will go anywhere but let’s try anyway.

:smt043 :smt005 :smt043 :smt005

Does this constitute a false prophesy? Do we start piling stones now? JK… :-D

 

[Guest]

Good point. So If you buy something and it doesn’t live up to your expectations, or perform as you intended or becomes warped and unusable, can you decide to throw it away or is there some law that says you purchased it so you must fix it or keep it forever and ever in it’s unusable condition? Personally, I would try to fix it but if it just can't be brought back to usuability, I would toss it out like salt that has lost it's savor or lukewarm coffee.

Ahh... but what a mighty and Awesome God who knowing full well that:

1) we do not live up to the standards
2) cannot live up to the standards
3) won't live up to the standards

Yet - He still sent His Son, Jesus Christ, that while we were His enemies, to die on the Cross that He might buy us to redeem us. It is no longer I that God sees, but the righteousness of Christ. I have been hidden in the shadow of the Cross.

It is intersting that you bring up salt. As I am currently going through the Sermon on the Mount. If you don't mind, I am going to ask a few questions and then I will respond to your answers.

1) Does salt lose it's saltiness? If so, how?

2) What is the purpose of salt (there are two primary purposes)

3) Who was Christ speaking too at the Sermon on the Mount?

4) Are we to become salt, or are we already salt?

5) Who are we the salt too?

Let me end by saying this - if we lose our saltiness, we lose our usefulness here on earth - therefore our rewards will be few to nill - not that we have lost the love of Christ.

 

[Vic C.]

I do like the analogy that God CAN reshape it once again to His image, That's perseverance of the saints. I like this song:

http://www.hotlyrics.net/lyrics/D/Darle ... _Hand.html

Let me add to this if I may.

Read this verse carefully:

Jeremiah 18 (litv)

4 And the vessel that he made in clay was ruined in the hand of the potter. So repeating he made it, another vessel, as it seemed good in the potter's eyes to make it.

It's the same vessel but He's reshaping it. He didn't just throw it away and grab a new lump of clay. :angel:

 

[Vic C.]

Hey, let me try this.

1) Does salt lose it's saltiness? If so, how?

By sinning, missing the mark, falling out of favor with God

2) What is the purpose of salt (there are two primary purposes)

It is a preservative... it was unsed as currency in commerce

3) Who was Christ speaking too at the Sermon on the Mount?

The Jews of His time

4) Are we to become salt, or are we already salt?

We are already salt

5) Who are we the salt too?

All of the earth's inhabitants

 

[unred typo]

That's man's limited perspective. God's perspective is this:

He "buys' with the foreknowledge of already knowing

1) it's performance

2) He is capable of "fixing" it if it malfunctions. ;-)

You see, I don't especially care for the analogy that the Potter creates one way or another without caring enough for the creation to reshape it instead of discarding it.

I do like the analogy that God CAN reshape it once again to His image, That's perseverance of the saints. I like this song:

http://www.hotlyrics.net/lyrics/D/Darle ... _Hand.html

If that were the case, then God could reshape all of mankind and end all evil and misery and hate and violence and all things that offend without making any go to a place as horrific as hell. I find the god of Calvinism and reformed theology to be a hypocritical, bloodthirsty, inequitable, deceitful monster. The true God of the Bible mercifully bought all with his own blood and calls all to repentance and desires that all should be saved.

 

[Vic C.]

If that were the case, then God could reshape all of mankind and end all evil and misery and hate and violence and all things that offend without making any go to a place as horrific as hell. I find the god of Calvinism and reformed theology to be a hypocritical, bloodthirsty, inequitable, deceitful monster. The true God of the Bible mercifully bought all with his own blood and calls all to repentance and desires that all should be saved.

Well you know by now I am not a Calvinist, but I do revere some of their theology and perseverance of the saints is one doctrine I believe. What you have just described is Hyper-Calvinism, which I don't care for either.

All He chooses in Christ and all that come to Christ are now constantly being reshaped by the Potter. He does not discard any of them.

 

[Guest]

Hey, let me try this.

1) Does salt lose it's saltiness? If so, how?

By sinning, missing the mark, falling out of favor with God

I was thinking more literally - as in how does literal salt lose it's saltiness. Let's keep in mind that the salt Jesus was referring too is not modern day table salt. Keep in mind "Dead Sea".

2) What is the purpose of salt (there are two primary purposes)

It is a preservative... it was unsed as currency in commerce

Perhaps I should have said three. I forgot about currency. As well as a preservative, and currency, it also adds flavor, spice.

3) Who was Christ speaking too at the Sermon on the Mount?

The Jews of His time

Yep! God's choosen people to be a witness to the goodness of God for all nations to see.

4) Are we to become salt, or are we already salt?

We are already salt

Yep again! Jesus's words here are an imperative. Not that we will become, but that we are!

5) Who are we the salt too?

All of the earth's inhabitants

Yes again! There is noone that we are not supposed to be salt too

Nice Vic - if you do not mind I will add my answers below yours in green