For those who think they can “lose itâ€Â…

[sisterchristian]

The concept of having one's name blotted out of the book of life appears in this verse: "He who has over come shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the book of life; but I will confess his name before my father and before his Angels" (Rev.3:5). This is a warning to live for God because no one knows what hour or date Jesus Christ may return. This is not a warning that your name will be blotted out of the Book of Life, or that a Christian can lose his salvation. Look at the context carefully. This is an encouragement for believers to continue serving Jesus Christ to the end. This verse does not have a negation[/i] for example, "If you sin you will be blotted out." Rather, this verse has only a positive affirmation; Jesus says, "I will not Blot out his name from the book of life, but I will confess his name before my father." Why do we know this? Because Jesus promised before he returned to heaven, "LO, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.' Amen" (Matt.28:20).

In the last book of the Bible, John, the writer, suggests that you cannot add to this book, nor can you take away from it. "For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of this book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the book of life, from the Holy city, and from the things which are written in this book" (Rev.22:18-19). These verses do not discuss whether a person can lose eternal life after he has it. Rather, they are discussing the fact that the Bible contains the only way to salvation that is available to all. If any one adds to the Gospel, or the way of salvation, that person does not understand salvation and is not saved. If a person knows the plan of salvation but adds something, like WORKS, that person will be judged more severely by God. Those who add to the Bible are part of religions that add works, sacraments, baptism, and the like. Those who take away from from the Gospel do not possess salvation (Acts 4:12). Those people who apparently know the Gospel but minimize it are not saved. People who deny the Bible, question it's inspiration and authority, make Jesus less than God, or make his death on Calvary less than Propitious for the sins of the world will not enter heaven. Their names are "Blotted out."

 

[cyberjosh]

This is not a warning that your name will be blotted out of the Book of Life, or that a Christian can lose his salvation. Look at the context carefully. This is an encouragement for believers to continue serving Jesus Christ to the end.

And what is the opposite of serving Jesus (righteousness)? Serving sin. And God has already said in the OT that he would blot out one's name from the book of life if they sin against Him (Exodus 33:32). This (just like 1 John) is not speaking of a one time sin but a repetetive sin, for all have sined and fallen short of the glory of God.

Let's not make God's grace a "cover-all" gift, or there would be no need to reach for it and it would be impossible to recieve it in vain (2 Corinthians 6:1). But rather since we don't always take advantage of God's grace, God longs to draw us back to it. "God longs to be gracious to you".

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Vic C.]

In the last book of the Bible, John, the writer, suggests that you cannot add to this book, nor can you take away from it. "For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of this book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the book of life, from the Holy city, and from the things which are written in this book" (Rev.22:18-19). These verses do not discuss whether a person can lose eternal life after he has it. Rather, they are discussing the fact that the Bible contains the only way to salvation that is available to all.

Be careful here sister. ;-) I'm sure you've heard this argument before, but it rings true for me. First off, I will say that no one should ever add or take words from scripture.

The Book in question in this passage is simply the book of Revelation, not the whole Bible. 8-) Matter of fact, when Revelation was written, only what we call the Old Testament was in existence as a "canonized" collection of "books".

 

[Vic C.]

...But rather since we don't always take advantage of God's grace, God longs to draw us back to it. "God longs to be gracious to you".

God Bless,

~Josh

You see, I believe it goes beyond a longing or desire for God. I true believe in perseverance of the saints. I do believe He will not lose any that were truly HIS to begin with, as the verse says.

Kahlil Gibran said it in a very interesting way:

"If you love somebody, let them go, for if they return, they were always yours. And if they don't, they never were."

;-)

 

[cyberjosh]

Vic,

Earlier you posed the question of how we can have our name removed from the Book of Life. I have a question in relation to that.

Earlier (on the last page) I wrote:

No one's name can be penned in the Book of Life unless Christ puts it there. I prefer to use the anology that our names are written with Christ's blood as the ink in the Book of Life. This is why we must not show contempt for the blood that bought us.

Was I incorrect in this? If so then how do unbelievers get their name in the Book of Life? If not then the only people who can have their name erased (Exodus 32:33) from the Book of Life could be those who have first entered into a covenant relationship with God by faith and who subsequently broke the covenant.

Do you see my problem/question now?

~Josh

 

[Vic C.]

Outside of Philippians 4:3, where else does this Book of Life show up in all the Bible? Why are we even trying to formulate salvific doctrine from Revelation anyway? What does this Book of Life mean to Jewish eschatology?

 

[golfjack]

reply

I believe all scripture should be taken as God talking to us. THe Bible is God's love letter to us.

I also believe there are two books of life. The one book is a record of every human born on earth. Then we have the Lambs Book of life, which is for everyone Born Again. God will not take believers out of the Lambs Book of Life. But we can take ourselves out. There is no sin committed or how many times one sins, that will remove the believer out of this book. But if we actually say to Jesus, I don't want you in my life, then we remove ourselves. But there is a caveat for us and that would be we would have to do it willfully and publically.

It's getting old that some seem to think that one can lose their salvation by sinning, whether consistent or otherwise. And, of course we should avoid sinning to say the least. Can one answer how many or what kind of sins does it take to lose our salvation?. I suspect not. Of course if we expect blessings from God, we must obey Him to receive.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[thessalonian]

It's getting old that some seem to think that one can lose their salvation by sinning, whether consistent or otherwise. And, of course we should avoid sinning to say the least. Can one answer how many or what kind of sins does it take to lose our salvation?. I suspect not. Of course if we expect blessings from God, we must obey Him to receive.

Jesus said if you love me keep my commands. Golfjack says, you don't really have to keep Jesus commands. In other words what he is saying is you don't have to love Jesus to get to heaven. Sin leads to the denial of Jesus golfjack. That is the point you are missing. Denial cannot be dissociated from sin as you are trying to do.

 

[Vic C.]

Not bad jack. Could you point me to these two Books of Life? I wanna read about them. I search and all I come up with are Jewish references. Thanks.

 

[cyberjosh]

Outside of Philippians 4:3, where else does this Book of Life show up in all the Bible? Why are we even trying to formulate salvific doctrine from Revelation anyway? What does this Book of Life mean to Jewish eschatology?

"O LORD, the hope of Israel,
All who forsake You will be put to shame
Those who turn away on earth will be written down,
Because they have forsaken the fountain of living water, even the LORD.
Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven." (Jeremiah 17:13)

There is a book apparently for those who forsake God as well.

Luke 10:20 - "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven."

Exodus 32:32-33 - "But now, if You will, forgive their sin--and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!"
"The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book."

Whoa! Moses invited God to blot him out! Scary.

Psalm 69:28 - "May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous. "

Isaiah 4:3 - "It will come about that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy--everyone who is recorded for life in Jerusalem. "

Ezekiel 13:9 - "So My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations They will have no place in the council of My people, nor will they be written down in the register of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel, that you may know that I am the Lord GOD."

Interesting, you have to be written down first by God, its not an automatic thing for all people. I guess this puts some weight to my theory that you cannot be written in it without God (Jesus) doing so first. Now I realize Ezekiel applies largely to the Jews (eschatalogically), but God will not deal much differently with them than us if they believe in Jesus. (Side note: I've noticed recently as I've studied Ezekiel that alot of Paul teachings (and also various other parts of the NT - including Revelation) parallel this book. Ezekiel is a very important book)

Daniel 12:1 - "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued."

Malachi 3:16 - "Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, and the LORD gave attention and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the LORD and who esteem His name."

Fear of the Lord is required. This could be an important doctrinal point!

Philippians 4:3 - "Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life."

This proves that you can know that your name is in the book of life while you are still alive. That's good news.

Hebrews 12:23 - "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect"

The rest of the the Book of Life references are in Revelation.

As for the Daniel 12:1 passage above it brings to mind a passage in Ezekiel 9 and its cooresponding prallel in Revelation (I forgot which chapter) of the angels going around and "marking" those to be saved with an inkhorn (Ezekiel 9:3-4). This also reminisces on the passover in which the doors were marked with blood. This shows that one must be "marked" or "written down" by God himself for salvation. And God alone has the power to blot it out, but it is clear that he does and has blotted people out of his book. That's scary since those who are blotted had to first be in the book, and Moses even invited God to do so to him if He would not spare the rest of the Israelites!

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Vic C.]

Jesus said if you love me keep my commands. Golfjack says, you don't really have to keep Jesus commands. In other words what he is saying is you don't have to love Jesus to get to heaven. Sin leads to the denial of Jesus golfjack. That is the point you are missing. Denial cannot be dissociated from sin as you are trying to do.

Actually, what Jesus says is this:

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

So, which commandments are we to keep, or not keep? I'm surprised Thess; you are throwing scripture back at us. ;-) This is the verse many of the SDA members used to throw at us. 8-) (no offense guibox)

 

[cyberjosh]

Re: reply

I believe all scripture should be taken as God talking to us. THe Bible is God's love letter to us.

I also believe there are two books of life. The one book is a record of every human born on earth. Then we have the Lambs Book of life, which is for everyone Born Again. God will not take believers out of the Lambs Book of Life. But we can take ourselves out. There is no sin committed or how many times one sins, that will remove the believer out of this book. But if we actually say to Jesus, I don't want you in my life, then we remove ourselves. But there is a caveat for us and that would be we would have to do it willfully and publically.

It's getting old that some seem to think that one can lose their salvation by sinning, whether consistent or otherwise. And, of course we should avoid sinning to say the least. Can one answer how many or what kind of sins does it take to lose our salvation?. I suspect not. Of course if we expect blessings from God, we must obey Him to receive.



May God bless, Golfjack

Oh absolutely. I agree. And consistantly sinning is not enough because God will take you back if you start to despise your life style due to the Holy Spirit's drawing you back and conviction, what it would take in addition to consistant sin would be a clear and complete rejection of that drawing and offer to take you back. If you say, I'm enjoying my sin too much, get out of here Jesus, then you have just blasphemed Christ and his Holy Spirit and all the grace accompanying it. I hope no one ever gets to that point, so please don't harden your hearts!

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Vic C.]

Good Josh, now take a look at the verses and who they're talking to and do some research on the Book of Life,

Here's a link:

Book of Life

 

[thessalonian]

I'm not throwing anything back at you. The fact is that love of God is associated with obedience to him. Sin leads to more sin and eventually disobedience and falling away. Thus it is to be avoided, not in a legalistic way but out of love of God, whom we are not forced to love.

 

[sisterchristian]

Re: reply

But if we actually say to Jesus, I don't want you in my life, then we remove ourselves.

But there is a caveat for us and that would be we would have to do it willfully and publically.


May God bless, Golfjack[/quote]
If someone were to say to Jesus "I don't want you in my life" First you gotta consider what mental state the person was in, like was he depressed, or did he just lose someone dear to him, or what was this person going through at the time to make him angry at the Lord? There are people who may blame God for things in their lives that bring them pain. But I think god knows this and just like a rebelious child sometimes we may say things out of anger or frustration, it doesn't mean that God will just dismiss us for it though. He knows our hearts and intent of our hearts.

 

[cyberjosh]

Good Josh, now take a look at the verses and who they're talking to and do some research on the Book of Life,

Here's a link:

Book of Life

Do you have an edge on this? Are you asking me to find out or are you trying to make a point from some opinion you have formed already? Also, what do you make of the points/commentary I gave below those verses above (I had to go back and edit once I found yet another verse in Malachi)?

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Guest]

Let's say that one can lose their salvation: How does one lose it?

It appears that we are focusing on sins of comission - but what about sins of ommission?

So - if we can lose our salvation - how does one go about losing it?

 

[golfjack]

reply

I will refer to Rev. 20:11-15 to figure what these books are about. Verse 11 tells us that these books will be opened after the thousand-year reign of Christ. This is the final judgment, and only the wicked dead are to be judged. According to Rev. 20:5, believers were resurrected a thousand years before this judgment, and their works were judged at the judgment seat of Christ ( 2 Cor. 5:10).

At the Great White Throne judgment the dead, small and great ( v.12), will stand before God. But the greatness of the great will be of no value. There is none who does good, no, not one ( Rom. 3:12).

At this judgment the Book of Life ( v.12) will be opened to show conclusively that these people are not in the Lamb's Book of Life. At this judgment the dead will be judged, each one according to His works ( v. 13). God is a just God, and since there are degrees of punishment in hell, some will be punished more than others ( Luke 12:42-48). Finally, these people will be lost forever; they are damned to a;ll eternity, without hope.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[AVBunyan]

Which I would say was my intentions. 8-)

Sorry Vic- I may have misunderstood you.

God bless

 

[Vic C.]

Do you have an edge on this? Are you asking me to find out or are you trying to make a point from some opinion you have formed already? Also, what do you make of the points/commentary I gave below those verses above (I had to go back and edit once I found yet another verse in Malachi)?

God Bless,

~Josh

No Josh, no edge whatsoever. I just wonder why we want to attribute anything like this relating to Jewish beliefs when we claim we will be taken out of the world, or at least protected from God's Wrath, before His gathering of His people.

The Jews had their Book of Life; they also had the Book of the Dead too. My hope of salvation lies squarely on and in Jesus; I do not worry about whether or not my name will be blotted out of some Jewish Book of Life. I did no work to achieve my salvation; HE chose me for a purpose and I live out that purpose believing HE also has a purpose g=for me in the afterlife.

Sorry Vic- I may have misunderstood you.

AV, no sweat, but tell me, am I grasping at straws here? What, if anything in the Hebrew and Jewish books, do I need to apply to myself or the ekklesia?