Forever Secure

[Cygnus]

And as John says," if they leave us, then they never really belonged to us".

The spin on this verse should be interesting.

 

[Cygnus]

Yep, sure does.
Eternal life means just that...eternal life.
Only a fool would stop believing and forfeit the life that is eternal.

Your problem is you can only understand 'eternal' one way.
To you 'eternal' means you can never lose salvation, no matter what.
The Bible, on the other hand, explains that 'eternal' means that Christ's ministry never comes to an end (like the Levites ministry did), and so the life and salvation that ministry gives to the believer (not the ex-believer) never ends and never has to be renewed (Hebrews 7:23,24,25 Hebrews 10:1,11,12,14). This being true, the author exhorts us to hold fast onto so great a ministry and sacrifice.

"...since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess." - Hebrews 4:14

Don't fall back into unbelief and lose the everlasting benefit of Christ's ministry!

"we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory." - Hebrews 3:6

"12See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. " - Hebrews 3:12

John 3:16 says if you believe you won't perish but have eternal life. Eternal life means just that..eternal. Your religion wants to tell us we have the potential for eternal life.

Your religion tells me I can be a very sincere christian all my life. Store up all kinds of treasures in heaven....then 1 month from when I die decide not to believe and lose my "eternal" life.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

John 3:16 says if you believe you won't perish but have eternal life. Eternal life means just that..eternal. Your religion wants to tell us we have the potential for eternal life.

No, the believer has a very real down payment of eternal life in him/her right now.
It's a down payment of the promise of the fullness of the Spirit, and the kingdom, and the redemption of our bodies yet to come.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your religion tells me I can be a very sincere christian all my life. Store up all kinds of treasures in heaven....then 1 month from when I die decide not to believe and lose my "eternal" life.

I know you're just making a general point, but, yes, this person will not enter into the kingdom when Christ returns.
The ex-believer no longer has the down payment of the Spirit guaranteeing his entry into the kingdom of God at the end of the age. Only believers have the Holy Spirit inside of them. Ex-believers, who have resisted God's call to come back and who have been turned over to their unbelief by God no longer have the Holy Spirit in them.

You can't receive payment on a winning lotto ticket that you lost on your way to collect on it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The spin on this verse should be interesting.

We know 1 John 2:19 doesn't mean what OSAS says it means by the simple fact that just a few verses later John says this to those believers who remain:

"24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life." - 1 John 2:24-25

Understand?

 

[Cygnus]

No, the believer has a very real down payment of eternal life in him/her right now.
It's a down payment of the promise of the fullness of the Spirit, and the kingdom, and the redemption of our bodies yet to come.

The believer has eternal life.

1 John 5:11 tells us...And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

If you are given eternal life..then it is taken away...then you were not given eternal life. Jethro, you should be overjoyed that you can't lose your eternal life.

 

[LovethroughDove]

We know 1 John 2:19 doesn't mean what OSAS says it means by the simple fact that just a few verses later John says this to those believers who remain:

"24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life." - 1 John 2:24-25

Understand?

I don't know if you saw where I think there could be those people that hear the gospel and then instantly believe? That is a very rare occasion, usually people have to be convinced before it "remains in" you. This is what this particular scripture is referring to.

 

[Cygnus]

I know you're just making a general point, but, yes, this person will not enter into the kingdom when Christ returns.
The ex-believer no longer has the down payment of the Spirit guaranteeing his entry into the kingdom of God at the end of the age. Only believers have the Holy Spirit inside of them. Ex-believers, who have resisted God's call to come back and who have been turned over to their unbelief by God no longer have the Holy Spirit in them.

You can't receive payment on a winning lotto ticket that you lost on your way to collect on it.

Your theology says the Holy Spirit is a seal breaker. You can underdstand why I disagree with you.

2 Cor 1:22
and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Cor 5:5
He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Eph 1:13-14
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guaranteed of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

 

[Cygnus]

We know 1 John 2:19 doesn't mean what OSAS says it means by the simple fact that just a few verses later John says this to those believers who remain:

"24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life." - 1 John 2:24-25

Understand?

You should have kept on reading...

If you don't remain you will be not be confident and unashamed before Him at His coming. The anointing a believer receives from Him is part of what will not remain in you.

Context Jethro...Context.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Your theology says the Holy Spirit is a seal breaker. You can underdstand why I disagree with you.

2 Cor 1:22
and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Cor 5:5
He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Eph 1:13-14
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guaranteed of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

I almost see it as blasphemy of the Spirit to say that he doesn't keep us Holy. That is the whole point of the Spirit entering into someone, to do this....

2 Corinthians 3:18 And we who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Does the Bible say it or does your forced interpretation say it?

The Bible says the following:

Acts 8:12-13 " But when they (Samaritans) believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. "

Both those at Samaria and Simon are said to have believed and were baptized. According to Christ's own words of Mark 16:16 Simon and the Samaritans would be saved.

If one assumes Simon was not really saved, then:
--no reason to think those Samaritans were saved either. Simon sinned but those Samaritans would have sinned also for they were no more perfectly sinless than you nor me. Simon is said to "believe also" that being he did exactly like those Samaritans. Simon is said by inspiration to "believed" which is indicative mood, a statement of fact.
--no reason to think Christ spoke the truth in Mark 16:16.

For anyone to claim Simon did not really believe, that Simon was not really saved are the ones forcing their bias into the text.

As I already noted Simon became lost, he perished (apōleia) with perish meaning loss of eternal life..... Thayer " in particular, the destruction which consists in the loss of eternal life, eternal misery, perdition,.." Simon could not lose eternal life if he never really had it to lose.

Acts 8:22...Peter told Simon to "pray". Pray is an avenue for those that are children of God (1 Jn 2:1; 1 Jn 3:22; etc) and not for those that are of the Devil. (Jn 9:31 cf Prov 1:28; Isa 1:15; cf 2 Chron 7:14)

".... but if any man be a worshipper of God, and do his will, him he heareth "

 

[Cygnus]

I almost see it as blasphemy of the Spirit to say that he doesn't keep us Holy. That is the whole point of the Spirit entering into someone, to do this....

2 Corinthians 3:18 And we who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Phil 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

The you can lose it guys say God won't complete the good work in you.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Phil 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

The you can lose it guys say God won't complete the good work in you.

I know where their intentions are coming from, they want people to stay the course........but don't tell people that are on the right path that they may not be on the right path. That is very frustrating.

 

[JLB]

Brother has several nuances. The verse does not plainly refer to two brothers in Christ.

 

[Cygnus]

The Bible says the following:

Acts 8:12-13 " But when they (Samaritans) believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. "

Both those at Samaria and Simon are said to have believed and were baptized. According to Christ's own words of Mark 16:16 Simon and the Samaritans would be saved.

If one assumes Simon was not really saved, then:
--no reason to think those Samaritans were saved either. Simon sinned but those Samaritans would have sinned also for they were no more perfectly sinless than you nor me. Simon is said to "believe also" that being he did exactly like those Samaritans. Simon is said by inspiration to "believed" which is indicative mood, a statement of fact.
--no reason to think Christ spoke the truth in Mark 16:16.

For anyone to claim Simon did not really believe, that Simon was not really saved are the ones forcing their bias into the text.

As I already noted Simon became lost, he perished (apōleia) with perish meaning loss of eternal life..... Thayer " in particular, the destruction which consists in the loss of eternal life, eternal misery, perdition,.." Simon could not lose eternal life if he never really had it to lose.

Acts 8:22...Peter told Simon to "pray". Pray is an avenue for those that are children of God (1 Jn 2:1; 1 Jn 3:22; etc) and not for those that are of the Devil. (Jn 9:31 cf Prov 1:28; Isa 1:15; cf 2 Chron 7:14)

".... but if any man be a worshipper of God, and do his will, him he heareth "

The word perish here doesn't mean eternal damnation. You do know perish has several nuances? The idea is more so likened to ruin and destruction

1 Tim 6:9 Those who want to be rich, however, fall into temptation and become ensnared by many foolish and harmful desires that plunge them into ruin and destruction.

2 Peter 2:1-3 has more on the topic....1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

I trust you stand corrected.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

We know 1 John 2:19 doesn't mean what OSAS says it means by the simple fact that just a few verses later John says this to those believers who remain:

"24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life." - 1 John 2:24-25

Understand?

Again, there's no mention of anyone that actually leaves.
It seems you misunderstand the verse.
You are so bent on people losing their salvation, you can't see the truth.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I don't know if you saw where I think there could be those people that hear the gospel and then instantly believe? That is a very rare occasion, usually people have to be convinced before it "remains in" you. This is what this particular scripture is referring to.

It's the parable of the sowers.
Wrong soil, you leave.
The only right soil is being filled with the Holy Spirit
And then we know we're saved!!!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The Bible says the following:

Acts 8:12-13 " But when they (Samaritans) believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. "

Both those at Samaria and Simon are said to have believed and were baptized. According to Christ's own words of Mark 16:16 Simon and the Samaritans would be saved.

If one assumes Simon was not really saved, then:
--no reason to think those Samaritans were saved either. Simon sinned but those Samaritans would have sinned also for they were no more perfectly sinless than you nor me. Simon is said to "believe also" that being he did exactly like those Samaritans. Simon is said by inspiration to "believed" which is indicative mood, a statement of fact.
--no reason to think Christ spoke the truth in Mark 16:16.

For anyone to claim Simon did not really believe, that Simon was not really saved are the ones forcing their bias into the text.

As I already noted Simon became lost, he perished (apōleia) with perish meaning loss of eternal life..... Thayer " in particular, the destruction which consists in the loss of eternal life, eternal misery, perdition,.." Simon could not lose eternal life if he never really had it to lose.

Acts 8:22...Peter told Simon to "pray". Pray is an avenue for those that are children of God (1 Jn 2:1; 1 Jn 3:22; etc) and not for those that are of the Devil. (Jn 9:31 cf Prov 1:28; Isa 1:15; cf 2 Chron 7:14)

".... but if any man be a worshipper of God, and do his will, him he heareth "

So what you're saying is that you don't believe that YOU are saved unless you get lucky on judgment day.
Sort of like winning the lottery.

 

[JLB]

The only right soil is being filled with the Holy Spirit
And then we know we're saved!!!

Whats the proof or evidence that a person has been filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Whats the proof or evidence that a person has been filled with the Holy Spirit.

I SAID SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!