Forever Secure

[LovethroughDove]

Making up something that doesn’t exist in God’s word is certainly not correct, nor will it ever be correct.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

• lest they should believe and be saved.

How is it Jesus said those who believe are saved, but in the next verse you make up some other believing (emotional) that isn’t in the text?

• But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

These people did in fact believe, thus fulfilling the requirement for salvation that Jesus Christ Himself said fulfilled the requirement for salvation.


Yet you come along and over rule what Jesus said, by inserting a false narrative that is not mentioned in the text.


Where is emotional believing mentioned in this text?



JLB

Received with joy

No root-superficial

 

[JLB]

Who is it that does not bear fruit?
Judas?
Did he lose his salvation?

Was Judas in Christ?



JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

Not remain interested in the Bible?

These people are in Christ.


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2


If you are removed from Christ, does that mean He is no longer eternal life?


JLB

You are adding that too. It doesn't say Christ here.

 

[JLB]

Received with joy

No root-superficial

Did they believe?

 

[JLB]

You are adding that too. It doesn't say Christ here.

Who is speaking in John 15:1-2?

• I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

These people are in Christ.


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2


If you are removed from Christ, does that mean He is no longer eternal life?


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Making up something that doesn’t exist in God’s word is certainly not correct, nor will it ever be correct.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

• lest they should believe and be saved.

How is it Jesus said those who believe are saved, but in the next verse you make up some other believing (emotional) that isn’t in the text?

• But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

These people did in fact believe, thus fulfilling the requirement for salvation that Jesus Christ Himself said fulfilled the requirement for salvation.


Yet you come along and over rule what Jesus said, by inserting a false narrative that is not mentioned in the text.


Where is emotional believing mentioned in this text?



JLB

Many believe with their minds, but never reaches their hearts.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Did they believe?

No, they did not believe.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Who is speaking in John 15:1-2?

• I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

These people are in Christ.


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2


If you are removed from Christ, does that mean He is no longer eternal life?


JLB

You keep posting the same thing. Is Jesus the Word? Cause you are ignoring this.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Was Judas in Christ?



JLB

What do you think?
Was he not "in Christ"?
Your answer is essential to your debate.

 

[JLB]

Many believe with their minds, but never reaches their hearts.

I agree.

Nevertheless the point we are actually discussing is those who are in Christ.

 

[JLB]

What do you think?
Was he not "in Christ"?
Your answer is essential to your debate.

Show me the scripture you are referring to?

 

[JLB]

You keep posting the same thing. Is Jesus the Word? Cause you are ignoring this.

Yes Jesus is the Word.

Now I have answered several of your questions its time for you to be honest enough to answer mine.


These people are in Christ.


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2


If you are removed from Christ, does that mean He is no longer eternal life?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't know if you saw where I think there could be those people that hear the gospel and then instantly believe? That is a very rare occasion, usually people have to be convinced before it "remains in" you. This is what this particular scripture is referring to.

Either way it's still a saved person being exhorted to let the word remain in them and remain in the Son and the Father (1 John 2:24), which makes OSAS's interpretation of verse 19 (1 John 2:19) impossible.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your theology says the Holy Spirit is a seal breaker. You can underdstand why I disagree with you.

2 Cor 1:22
and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Cor 5:5
He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Eph 1:13-14
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guaranteed of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Your theology adds to the definition of 'sealed' by saying 'sealed' means 'unable to be unsealed'.
I bet you don't apply that definition to the leftovers sealed in Tupperware containers in your refrigerator. It's only applied by OSASer's in the context of the seal of the Holy Spirit in order to preserve their OSAS argument.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Show me the scripture you are referring to?

Here is a man who walked with Christ for 3 years or more and always called him "Rabbi", whereas all other apostles called him "Lord".
Then, in the end, he kills himself.
What born again Christian in their right mind would do that?
You have to rationalize that he was either insane, and nothing points to that, or that he was in Christ for 3 years and was never saved, or he just fell off the table at the last minute.
I don't see it any other way.
Which way do you see it?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I almost see it as blasphemy of the Spirit to say that he doesn't keep us Holy. That is the whole point of the Spirit entering into someone, to do this....

Of course the Spirit is the one who makes us Holy.
We don't do that.
That's what happens when we believe.
The Holy Spirit makes us holy--clean and set apart to God.
That's why we are to keep believing.....so we can remain sanctified by the Spirit.
Nothing blasphemous about that.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Of course the Spirit is the one who makes us Holy.
We don't do that.
That's what happens when we believe.
The Holy Spirit makes us holy--clean and set apart to God.
That's why we are to keep believing.....so we can remain sanctified by the Spirit.
Nothing blasphemous about that.

I 100% agree with everything, but what I have highlighted.

The day you are born again into the Spirit, you have entered covenant with Jesus. It is a marriage covenant. It is a holy covenant and he does not give his Spirit to people who don't love him and who won't obey him. He sanctifies us forever and washes us clean with his Word.

John 14:16-17 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth

Ephesians 5:24 Now as the church submits to Christ

Ephesians 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word

I guess I'm gonna really push the marriage covenant from the wife side, and I guess you might want to listen cause you need to be the wife in the Jesus relationship.

You are either married to him, or you are thinking about entering into covenant with him, or you could care less about him, or you don't want to have him over you (therefore he isn't Lord)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I 100% agree with everything, but what I have highlighted.

The day you are born again into the Spirit, you have entered covenant with Jesus. It is a marriage covenant. It is a holy covenant and he does not give his Spirit to people who don't love him and who won't obey him. He sanctifies us forever and washes us clean with his Word.

John 14:16-17 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth

Ephesians 5:24 Now as the church submits to Christ

Ephesians 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word

I guess I'm gonna really push the marriage covenant from the wife side, and I guess you might want to listen cause you need to be the wife in the Jesus relationship.

You are either married to him, or you are thinking about entering into covenant with him, or you could care less about him, or you don't want to have him over you (therefore he isn't Lord)

I know that this is the OSAS belief about the matter.
But for me, Hebrews 10 makes it crystal clear what will happen to the 'wife' sanctified (cleansed and made holy) by the blood who then tramples on that blood in a willful, unbelieving sinning:

10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,

23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.”

31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 10:10,14,23,26,27,28,29,30,31 (Caps and italics in original)

I'm done letting the church tell me the Bible doesn't really mean what it says.
How can you just look past these plain words except that you've been taught not to see them by OSAS?
The person sanctified by the blood of Christ who then tramples on that blood and insults the Spirit of grace in a willful, unbelieving sinning will go to hell. They do not get to keep the sanctification they have received in Christ.
How can you not see this?

 

[LovethroughDove]

I know that this is the OSAS belief about the matter.
But for me, Hebrews 10 makes it crystal clear what will happen to the 'wife' sanctified (cleansed and made holy) by the blood who then tramples on that blood in a willful, unbelieving sinning:

10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,

23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.”

31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 10:10,14,23,26,27,28,29,30,31 (Caps and italics in original)

I'm done letting the church tell me the Bible doesn't really mean what it says.
How can you just look past these plain words except that you've been taught not to see them by OSAS?
The person sanctified by the blood of Christ who then tramples on that blood and insults the Spirit of grace in a willful, unbelieving sinning will go to hell. They do not get to keep the sanctification they have received in Christ.
How can you not see this?

You and I will just have to agree to disagree. I had highlighted in scripture Jesus saying the Spirit of truth will be given to you forever. (this is the covenant)

He does not enter into covenant with wishy washy people, so yes........a majority of people walking around are in danger of hellfire. He does not send his wife that he entered into covenant into hell. He would be tossing himself in there and that is absurd. Ephesians 5:31-32 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." This is a profound mystery - but I am talking about Christ and the church.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You and I will just have to agree to disagree. I had highlighted in scripture Jesus saying the Spirit of truth will be given to you forever. (this is the covenant)

He does not enter into covenant with wishy washy people, so yes........a majority of people walking around are in danger of hellfire. He does not send his wife that he entered into covenant into hell. He would be tossing himself in there and that is absurd. Ephesians 5:31-32 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." This is a profound mystery - but I am talking about Christ and the church.

All of these things have understandings that do not make Hebrews 10 untrue.
But your interpretations of these things DO make Hebrews 10 untrue.

That is how you discern this supposedly un-discernable matter of OSAS vs. Non-OSAS.
You develop doctrine that keeps all passages true.
You do not develop doctrine by making other passages of scripture untrue.

OSAS has to make many passages of scripture not really mean what they say.
Non-OSAS doesn't do that. It harmonizes all scripture without resorting to changing the plain meanings of scripture to make them harmonize as OSAS does.