Forever Secure

[JLB]

No, they did not believe.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

I Know you can read.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Why would you blatantly deny the plain words of Christ?


These were being persecuted BECAUSE they were believers, Christians, followers Christ.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Here is a man who walked with Christ for 3 years or more and always called him "Rabbi", whereas all other apostles called him "Lord".
Then, in the end, he kills himself.
What born again Christian in their right mind would do that?
You have to rationalize that he was either insane, and nothing points to that, or that he was in Christ for 3 years and was never saved, or he just fell off the table at the last minute.
I don't see it any other way.
Which way do you see it?

Lots of Christians kill themselves.

 

[Cygnus]

No. The truth is the truth.


Now back to the question.

Obviously a person “in Christ” refers to someone who has eternal life.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2


If you are removed from Christ, does that mean He is no longer eternal life?


JLB

Once again..those that he takes away never had a saving relationship. They may appear to be saved or attached to the vine but in reality they are not.

 

[Cygnus]

Who is it that does not bear fruit?
Judas?
Did he lose his salvation?

That's a good point....Judas was never saved...and appeared to be "in Christ"

 

[Cygnus]

Yes agreed.

But my question isn’t about those who claim to be Christians.

My question is about those who are “in Christ”.

Obviously a person “in Christ” refers to someone who has eternal life.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2


If you are removed from Christ, does that mean He is no longer eternal life?

A Mormon or a JW believes they are "in Christ"...but they are not.

 

[Cygnus]

Do you think those that believe false teachers will be saved or in destruction?

You tell me..you believe in what your teachers have falsely taught you...that is you can loose your salvation.

 

[Cygnus]

Show us in the Bible where believing in order to be saved, and continuing to believe in order to stay saved is somehow 'taking it (salvation) away from God and his mercy'.

Believing is how you access the mercy of God in salvation.
Your life of ever increasing works is the evidence and assurance that you have indeed accessed that salvation.

Actually you can't believe unless you're saved....regenerated...Actually, actually it happens at the same moment.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I know that this is the OSAS belief about the matter.
But for me, Hebrews 10 makes it crystal clear what will happen to the 'wife' sanctified (cleansed and made holy) by the blood who then tramples on that blood in a willful, unbelieving sinning:

10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,

23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.”

31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 10:10,14,23,26,27,28,29,30,31 (Caps and italics in original)

I'm done letting the church tell me the Bible doesn't really mean what it says.
How can you just look past these plain words except that you've been taught not to see them by OSAS?
The person sanctified by the blood of Christ who then tramples on that blood and insults the Spirit of grace in a willful, unbelieving sinning will go to hell. They do not get to keep the sanctification they have received in Christ.
How can you not see this?

Can they not come back, like the prodigal son?

 

[Cygnus]

Your theology adds to the definition of 'sealed' by saying 'sealed' means 'unable to be unsealed'.
I bet you don't apply that definition to the leftovers sealed in Tupperware containers in your refrigerator. It's only applied by OSASer's in the context of the seal of the Holy Spirit in order to preserve their OSAS argument.

Sounds more like you're adding by saying sealed means you can be unsealed.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

All of these things have understandings that do not make Hebrews 10 untrue.
But your interpretations of these things DO make Hebrews 10 untrue.

That is how you discern this supposedly un-discernable matter of OSAS vs. Non-OSAS.
You develop doctrine that keeps all passages true.
You do not develop doctrine by making other passages of scripture untrue.

OSAS has to make many passages of scripture not really mean what they say.
Non-OSAS doesn't do that. It harmonizes all scripture without resorting to changing the plain meanings of scripture to make them harmonize as OSAS does.

I don't see how Hebrews 10 supports non-OSAS at all.
If these are the verses you keep pushing to prove your point, then you've got nothing.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

I Know you can read.

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Why would you blatantly deny the plain words of Christ?


These were being persecuted BECAUSE they were believers, Christians, followers Christ.


JLB

The ones on the rock are emotional hearers who are unstable in their faith and through temptation go back to where they belonged.
Definitely never born again.

 

[Cygnus]

Romans 8:38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If you've lost your salvation and thrown into hell...then you've been separated from the love of God. non-OSAS is a contradiction of Gods holy Word.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Yes Jesus is the Word.

Now I have answered several of your questions its time for you to be honest enough to answer mine.


These people are in Christ.


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2


If you are removed from Christ, does that mean He is no longer eternal life?

This scripture is in regards to him as the "Word". Romans 11 speaks about the Word and Israel, cause they have part of the Word also. It explains the branches. If they kept going with the Word.......the Word is life

1 John 1:1-2 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched - this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

If you aren't producing spiritual fruit from reading the Word, he cuts you off. Kinda like Israel, they only applied part of the Word to their lives.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

.

The ones on the rock are emotional hearers who are unstable in their faith and through temptation go back to where they belonged.
Definitely never born again.

You mean like the Thessalonians?

"6You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit. 7And so you became a model to all the believers in Macedonia and Achaia." - 1 Thessalonians 1:6-7

Paul seems to have had a different opinion about them.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

There’s nothing more encouraging and comforting than realizing that at rebirth, believers have all they will ever require to be pronounced innocent before Christ’s judgment seat! I often wonder how many believers there are who may at least wish or hope that rebirth is permanent. One truth is certain, it requires God to give the understanding that there is nothing He does in Christ that is not permanent! Unless I’m wrong, I have yet to encounter anything in His Word that appears to refute this issue. Yes, there is a change in the manner of dispensing His plans and mind between the OT and the NT, but this only concerns Him revealing more of His mind in all He is going do.

In His choosing Israel to be the first dispensing of the revelation of Himself to man, He has retained those who believed in Him (Jn 14:1), and the Jews who believe in Him at His last coming, them God will also retain and complete His plans for them in the Millennium. The only changes God makes are those concerning the manner of the dispensation He chooses to use to reveal His will. I have learned though, that the primary delay in understanding the issue of permanent security in Christ is in attempting to attribute to ourselves (other than receiving) anything that either effects and retains salvation.

It’s clear to all that only God effects salvation, but I believe the fullness of this understanding is gauged in how we comprehend its retention (afto pou paragei apokleistika, diatirei apo mono tou; what solely produces, solely retains; literal: what it produces exclusively, it maintains on its own). The Scriptural order is that salvation procures works, and not the inverse (believing and receiving are not works but gifts). Works manifest and not produces! James 2:24 “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified.” In this context, “justified” is defined as “to show or manifest one is righteous.” Not “to make one righteous,” as in Rom 8:33, “It is God who justifies.”
NC (apologize for the winded prologue)

Forever Secure​

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus” (Ro 8:1). If this can be successfully shown, many a doubt will disappear from weary hearts. In turning to John 5:24, we see “Hath everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but is passed from death into life.”

Who has the authority to pronounce absolute unconditional security of the believer and to guarantee immunity from coming judgement? None other than the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Quickener of the dead! His right and authority to announce beforehand the ultimate destiny of His own is unquestionable. Instead of standing in the dock as sinners and rebels, we shall sit on the bench as judges (1Co 6:2, 3).

At the Rapture, the believers are raised in glory (1Co 15:43). Consider the absurdity of believers in their glorified bodies, crowned and robed, morally and physically like the glorified Lord Jesus, standing trial before Him to see if they are fit for heaven and glory. A mere casual examination of the Scriptures must reverse such a conclusion.

The Judge was once God’s victim on the Cross for our sin (2Co 5:21). He bore our judgment, divine judgment due us. Our trial and judgment at Calvary are long since passed (since eternity past He’s known who will be His—NC). We are completely beyond judgment as is the Judge Himself. “Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the “Day of Judgment,” because as He is, so are we in this world (1Jn 4:17).

The feeblest and weakest of the Lord’s own are as safe from judgment as is Christ. Do not permit your assurance to be shaken by either your thoughts of unfitness, or the use of certain passages of Scripture that are wrested from their meaning and applied by blind leaders of the blind to undermine themselves and others.

We refer to such Scriptures as Matthew 24:13: “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” An examination of the context will immediately clear up any doubt as to the meaning of this Scripture. There are dispensational differences in the Word, and this one has to do with the tribulation period.

Then, many have been troubled by Hebrews 6:1-12. This Epistle was written to Jewish professors who had renounced Judaism and turned to Christianity. These were in danger of apostasy from Christianity; therefore, there would be nothing else to turn to but a fearful looking forward to judgment (10:27). Verses 9 and 10 (chp. 6) show true believers, while the others were mere professors and not believers at all.

Condemnation is future and necessarily succeeds judgment. Romans 8:1 states no judgment and no condemnation. What a glorious position for the believer!


Unknown

There is no security in anything unless we are keeping OBEYING Christ's commadments . Jesus Himself says (John 14:15) " If you love me, you shall keep my commandments. "
What Christ is saying in simple words is if you're NOT keeping my commandments you have NO love for me.
How then is anyone who is not keeping the Lord's commandments safe n secure in their salvation? Based on whose assurances, when the ultimate authority, Christ Himself, is issuing this sobering caveat to all believers ?

 

[JLB]

Once again..those that he takes away never had a saving relationship. They may appear to be saved or attached to the vine but in reality they are not.

All opinion.

 

[JLB]

Actually you can't believe unless you're saved....regenerated...Actually, actually it happens at the same moment.

More opinion.

 

[JLB]

The ones on the rock are emotional hearers who are unstable in their faith and through temptation go back to where they belonged.
Definitely never born again.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


Where does it say they were emotional hearers?



JLB

 

[JLB]

This scripture is in regards to him as the "Word". Romans 11 speaks about the Word and Israel, cause they have part of the Word also. It explains the branches. If they kept going with the Word.......the Word is life

1 John 1:1-2 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched - this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

If you aren't producing spiritual fruit from reading the Word, he cuts you off. Kinda like Israel, they only applied part of the Word to their lives.

Sorry, no such thing as spiritual fruit from reading the word.

You are either in Christ or you are not in Christ.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:1-2

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

Does Jesus stop being eternal life because a person is removed from Him?


Do you believe in loving and helping people, expressing your faith through love.

“As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
John 15:9-12







JLB

 

[JLB]

A Mormon or a JW believes they are "in Christ"...but they are not.

These are the words of Jesus Christ, not what a JW or Mormon “believes”.


Jesus said these are removed from Him.


I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:1-2

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

Does Jesus stop being eternal life because a person is removed from Him?



JLB