Forever Secure

[Cygnus]

Check it out for yourself. Hold fast and saved are in the present tense.
You are presently saved if you are presently holding fast the word you first heard.
It's a conditional statement.
You are not presently saved if you are not presently holding fast the word you first heard.
You have to fulfill the condition of presently believing in order to be presently saved.

Calvinism says all believers will continue to believe because God issued you your believing.
Freegrace says the passage is just plain false. You are still saved even if you don't continue to believe.

Of course your saved if you hold fast to the gospel....that's a no brainer. What it doesn't say is that if you don't "hold fast" you'll lose your salvation. That is purely something you worded into the verse.

 

[JLB]

Holding fast means grasping the gospel...claiming the gospel is the truth...when you are regenerated and claim the gospel, hold fast to the gospel....you are also saved. The verse is about your initial salvation. The verse is not about remaining saved. People add to the thought and context by making the verse more than it is.

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2



It’s absolutely about remaining saved, because the admonition is to people who are already saved. They are told if they don’t hold fast, (keep secure) then their initial believing was of no use, it was done in vain.


Jesus used the same word to express this same truth in the parable of the sower.


But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance. Luke 8:15 NASB


What do you have against ”continuing to believe” to continue to be saved?

Do you believe this is an unrealistic demand?


What motive do you have to not continue to believe?



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you kept on reading rather than using your snippet cut and paste out of context technique you would have discovered the verse was saying if you think circumcision is a requirement for salvation then you need to keep all of the law.

A suggestion for you...prior to posting a verse look it up and read several verses before and after the snippet. In failing to do that you posted Gal 5:2 out of context.

You're not getting it.
The Galatians fell away from Christ.
Paul said they lose justification in Christ when they do that.
OSAS says that's impossible.

"2Take notice: I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I testify to every man who gets himself circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the hope of righteousness." - Galatians 5:2-5

Now show us how OSAS makes the passage not really mean what it says.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Of course your saved if you hold fast to the gospel....that's a no brainer. What it doesn't say is that if you don't "hold fast" you'll lose your salvation. That is purely something you worded into the verse.

You're not getting it.
IF, Cygnus, IF!
It's a condition for being presently saved.

 

[Cygnus]

You're not getting it.
The Galatians fell away from Christ.
Paul said they lose justification in Christ when they do that.
OSAS says that's impossible.

"2Take notice: I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I testify to every man who gets himself circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the hope of righteousness." - Galatians 5:2-5

Now show us how OSAS makes the passage not really mean what it says.

Paul told them if circumcision is a requirement...then you must fulfill all of the law. If you are using the law to become saved then you are severed from Christ.

 

[Cygnus]

You're not getting it.
IF, Cygnus, IF!
It's a condition for being presently saved.

Your right...I'm not getting it because what you are preaching is wrong.


Tell us, at what point does one lose their salvation? At what point do they get it back?

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

"No condemnation" is conditionally found "in Christ". There is condemnation to those that fall away from Christ.

Question: Can a Christian steal from his neighbor, from his creditors, etc and still be saved?

Yes.....they can also have sex with their Mother and they can also blaspheme.....

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

AMEN!

You know we agree on this.


JLB

My Bible says that Salvation is a GIFT —- given to those that do not work for it....You guy’s talk about PROBATION, instead of Salvation and THAT is NOT a gift.....in fact, it is the opposite Of a gift.....being “ under the Gun” all of the time , having the Heavy Yoke Of your Performance upon your shoulders 24/7 will NEVER please God , because wants our Trust and Love .....If one is not Resting in Paul’s Gospel Of Grace Plus Nothing .....You are Working—- working on your pitiful performance of Commandment - keeping .....thinking you are “ good enough” to get intoHeaven....Rest Spurs Love and Love Spurs Obedience ....
“Performance Spurs Religion and Religion is the opposite of Christianity .....

 

[JLB]

My Bible says that Salvation is a GIFT

Yes, Salvation is by grace through faith.

Now that that is settled, that’s move back to what we are actually discussing; CONTINUING TO BELIEVE.


Do you understand why the unbelieving Jews would persecute Jewish Believers?

Do you know what they say, even to today, to Jews who become Christians?

Unbelieving Jews who practice Judaism are radical extremists who believe Jesus is a false prophet and a deceiver, sent by Satan to deceive Jews who practice Judaism away from God.

These radical Jews believe the followers of Christ are deceivers and must be put to death or made to return to Judaism, where they are used to spread the news as a testimony of how they were deceived into following Jesus a false teacher.


That’s the narrative. That’s what Is told to Jewish converts.

That comes from the Talmud.

Go read what the Talmud says about Jesus Christ and His followers.

So I hope you fully understand what it means to depart from Christ under persecution.


It means you no longer believe Jesus is the Messiah and Lord and you must renounce Him as a false teacher and false prophet.

This is what it means to return to unbelief.

This is what it is referring to, by enduring for a while.

This is what it means to believe for a while.

This is what it means to desert Christ, to save your life, so you can live a little longer.


For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 10:26


This is putting Christ to an open shame by saying He is a false teacher and false prophet; not being the Messiah.


For the person who does this, the next time they sin, they no longer have a sacrifice for sin.



But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Hebrews 10:39


You must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved, in order to have a sacrifice for sins.


If you no longer believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, then you no longer have a sacrifice for sin?






JLB

 

[JLB]

Your right...I'm not getting it because what you are preaching is wrong.


Tell us, at what point does one lose their salvation? At what point do they get it back?

Believers are saved.

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.


Please explain how a person who no longer believes still has a sacrifice for sins?


For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 10:26


No longer believe = No longer saved


If you believe a person who no longer believes is still saved, because they still have a sacrifice for sins, then please post the scripture that teaches this.




JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your right...I'm not getting it because what you are preaching is wrong.

No, Cygnus. Unbelievers and ex-believers don't get to enter the kingdom when Jesus returns.
The suggestion is so absurd I can't believe the church now thinks they will.

Tell us, at what point does one lose their salvation?

You lose your salvation when God is done trying to draw you back from your decision to not trust in Jesus anymore.
I would think that would vary from person to person based on why they left and to what extent they are in unbelief.
How long did he give the Galatians a chance to come back? We don't know.
Did they come back? We don't know.
We just know that Paul said to mark his words when he told them they lose the effect of Jesus in justification by no longer trusting in Christ for justification and, for example, going back to the law for justification. That's called unbelief. You don't get to keep the free gift if you stop believing/trusting in it.

At what point do they get it back?

Once you lose it you can't get it back.
God does not allow that.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yes.....they can also have sex with their Mother and they can also blaspheme.....

Not according 1 Cor 5. OSAS gives people a free pass to commit all kinds of heinous sins but why won't OSASers take responsibility for all this sin they giving a free pass to?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My Bible says that Salvation is a GIFT —- given to those that do not work for it..

It's a gift because it's not given as payment for work completed, not that there isn't the condition for believing attached to it. I showed you clearly where Paul distinguishes between working for justification and believing for justification. Having to continue to believe in order to continue to be saved is not equal to working for salvation. I proved this to you from Paul's own clear words. You are not following the Paul you say you follow.

..You guy’s talk about PROBATION, instead of Salvation and THAT is NOT a gift.....in fact, it is the opposite Of a gift..

Call it what you want, but the Bible makes it clear through the example of the Galatians that if you stop trusting in Jesus for justification you will in fact lose your justification in Jesus. OSAS has to make Paul's plain words not really mean what they say in order to defend it's false doctrines. I'm done playing that deceitful game.

 

[Cygnus]

Believers are saved.

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.


Please explain how a person who no longer believes still has a sacrifice for sins?


For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 10:26


No longer believe = No longer saved


If you believe a person who no longer believes is still saved, because they still have a sacrifice for sins, then please post the scripture that teaches this.




JLB

JLB, I'm not going to respond to the scripture you post if you keep posting it out of context.

Heb 10:26 speaks of the knowledge of truth.....not of a persons actual salvation.

 

[Cygnus]

Once you lose it you can't get it back.
God does not allow that.

There really is no worry here because you can't lost the salvation you were sealed into.

All sins are forgiven...nailed to the cross....washed by the blood of Christ..ALL...past, present and future.

The person that has fallen into disbelief and does not build on the foundation of Jesus Christ will have their works burned up like hay, wood and straw.....they will be saved....as if by the skin of their teeth.

 

[Cygnus]

It's a gift because it's not given as payment for work completed, not that there isn't the condition for believing attached to it. I showed you clearly where Paul distinguishes between working for justification and believing for justification. Having to continue to believe in order to continue to be saved is not equal to working for salvation. I proved this to you from Paul's own clear words. You are not following the Paul you say you follow.


Call it what you want, but the Bible makes it clear through the example of the Galatians that if you stop trusting in Jesus for justification you will in fact lose your justification in Jesus. OSAS has to make Paul's plain words not really mean what they say in order to defend it's false doctrines. I'm done playing that deceitful game.

You're only justified once.

A man could be born again at an early age....live a life time of serving and honoring the Lord. Store up all kinds of treasure in heaven....then you're theology says that if for some reason the man falls into disbelief a year before he dies...he is lost and goes to hell. That's hogwash religion.

 

[JLB]

JLB, I'm not going to respond to the scripture you post if you keep posting it out of context.

Heb 10:26 speaks of the knowledge of truth.....not of a persons actual salvation.

Sorry sir, but the phrase “no longer” tells us otherwise.

• there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 10:26


Jesus Christ the Lamb of God is no longer a sacrifice for their sin, because they no longer believe, having departed Him.




JLB

 

[JLB]

You're only justified once.

A man could be born again at an early age....live a life time of serving and honoring the Lord. Store up all kinds of treasure in heaven....then you're theology says that if for some reason the man falls into disbelief a year before he dies...he is lost and goes to hell. That's hogwash religion.

Its the simple truth.

You are just denying the plain words of scripture, because the scripture violate you indoctrinated belief system.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1


How can a person remain saved if they depart from the faith by which they were saved?




JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JLB, I'm not going to respond to the scripture you post if you keep posting it out of context.

Heb 10:26 speaks of the knowledge of truth.....not of a persons actual salvation.

Notice the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:10,14,29
He's talking about saved people.
OSAS has to make the chapter not really mean what it says to defend itself.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Your form of salvation appears to be works based or strongly works influenced. One does not lose their salvation but rather loses rewards. (1 Cor 3:15) The verse above says..And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,...it seem pretty clear if you are given eternal life then you can't lose the eternal life. If you could lose the eternal life then it wasn't eternal.

I believe the people you speak of are often these people...1st John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Salvation is by a combination of God's grace and man's obedience. Those that "obey not" will be lost 2 Thess 1:8.

I have noticed OSASers contradict themselves by misusing a couple of verses. If a Christian goes out and commits a sin (as adultery) and dies impenitently in that sin, some OSASers use 1 Cor 3:15 to claim he will be saved anyway while others try and use 1 Jn 2:19 to claim he was never really saved in the first place. He cannot at the same time be "saved anyway" and "never really saved".... so which is it?

++++++++++++

In reality neither 1 Cor 3:15 or 1 Jn 2:19 teach what OSASers claim they teach. For example in 1 Cor 3 Paul is making a metaphorical comparison between building a building and building the church. Paul refers to the church as God's "building" 1 Cor 3:9. And Paul refers to himself a masterbuilder 1 Cor 3:10.

When one builds a building, one lays the foundation then builds upon that foundation and the building will be a strong as the material put into it whether enduring material as gold, silver, precious stones that fire does not damage or weak material as wood, hay, stubble which will burn.

The church is not a literal building but is made up of converts. So to "build" the church one must do the work of making converts. In Corinth Paul 'laid the foundation' of the church by making the initial converts. Others (Apollos) came behind Paul and built upon that foundation by making more converts and the church is only as strong as the faith of its converts.

Hence the "work" referred to in this context is converts. Paul calls those Corinthian converts his "work" in the Lord, 1 Cor 9:1.

The day is coming when one's work (convert) will be judged by God 1 Cor 3:13. For Paul's work (convert) that will be saved, Paul will receive a reward (1 Cor 3:14) But for the work (converts) that will be lost Paul himself will not be lost as long as he remains faithful (1 Cor 9:21) but Paul will suffer a sense of lose over his lost converts (1 Cor 3:15). For example those converts of Paul at Galatia who had fallen from grace, Paul had a sense of loss over them (Gal 4:11) his labor with those lost converts would be in vain.

Therefore this context does show the exact opposite of OSAS in that one's work (convert) may burn due to a weak faith.