Freewill religion is the Man of Sin !

[Cassian]

Mitspa,

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Rom 12:2

Since God through Christ draws all men, there are no exceptions, John 12:32, and since Christ arose from the dead He will also raise all men. John 6:39.
The question still remains, man must choose. It is why man was created, it is why Christ redeemed mankind from death just so that every single human being can make the choice for which we were made.

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

We surely cannot be transformed if we do not choose to work with God as He purposed in creating us. God has revealed to us as rational human beings what He expects of His creatures. We are free to choose to be transformed into His Image or we can freely choose to reject that purpose.

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Man was predestined to be in union with god for an etenrity. Christ restored that inheritance and it awaits all those who choose to live as Christ has commanded us to live, We are to submit to His will as He has revealed it.
Part of that counsel was that man would be created free, free to choose whether he would love his creator, obey Him, live according to His plan, or reject Him.

Php 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Again a verse that states that man must actually make the decision. It is God who works in us to do His will, but God does not do His will through us. Man can reject Him. In fact, all men will make an active choice regarding the work of God in each human being. That is why God can be just in His judgments because man was given the responsibility and will be held to it.

2Pe 2:10
But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

the context of this verse Peter is speaking about false teachers. False teachers are those who walk after the flesh, a choice, they despise governatmen, again a choice, they speak against dignitaries. Clearly none of these actions are done by God through man, but are man's own free choices.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If anymanwill come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
1Co 2:2

another good example of man's free will and the requirement of man to choose.

For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
2Co 10:5

this is Paul speaking about the Corinthians. I'm nost sure what this even has to do with the topic.

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
there are so many more! but my point is No One can claim they serve God by their own "free will" but even salvation is "Gods Will" ! Now many christains walk in the "will of the flesh" and no nothing of what it means to walk in the Spirit. Thats what i see in the so-called "free-will" groups. But maybe i dont understand what some mean by the term? Please explain if i have got it wrong?

I think you have a completely different concpet of free will. Everyone of these texts implores man to use his God given free will. Man cannot as a human being even exist apart from a free will. He would not be a human being. the ONLY way we can serve God is by or with our free will.

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa,

Since God through Christ draws all men, there are no exceptions, John 12:32, and since Christ arose from the dead He will also raise all men. John 6:39.
The question still remains, man must choose. It is why man was created, it is why Christ redeemed mankind from death just so that every single human being can make the choice for which we were made.

We surely cannot be transformed if we do not choose to work with God as He purposed in creating us. God has revealed to us as rational human beings what He expects of His creatures. We are free to choose to be transformed into His Image or we can freely choose to reject that purpose.
Man was predestined to be in union with god for an etenrity. Christ restored that inheritance and it awaits all those who choose to live as Christ has commanded us to live, We are to submit to His will as He has revealed it.
Part of that counsel was that man would be created free, free to choose whether he would love his creator, obey Him, live according to His plan, or reject Him.
Again a verse that states that man must actually make the decision. It is God who works in us to do His will, but God does not do His will through us. Man can reject Him. In fact, all men will make an active choice regarding the work of God in each human being. That is why God can be just in His judgments because man was given the responsibility and will be held to it.
the context of this verse Peter is speaking about false teachers. False teachers are those who walk after the flesh, a choice, they despise governatmen, again a choice, they speak against dignitaries. Clearly none of these actions are done by God through man, but are man's own free choices.
another good example of man's free will and the requirement of man to choose.
this is Paul speaking about the Corinthians. I'm nost sure what this even has to do with the topic.
I think you have a completely different concpet of free will. Everyone of these texts implores man to use his God given free will. Man cannot as a human being even exist apart from a free will. He would not be a human being. the ONLY way we can serve God is by or with our free will.

Again where does this "God given free-will" come from. The first act of salvation is surrender to the" will of another", as a child. "Salvation" is death to ones own will and living in the will of God! What do you believe the term "flesh" to mean?

Rom 7:15



For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16



If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17



Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:18



For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Again i state that no one can serve God by their own will! Salvation is dying to free-will and living by the will of another.

1Co 2:9



But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10



But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11



For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12



Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13



Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Co 2:14



But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Cassian]

Mitspa,

Again where does this "God given free-will" come from. The first act of salvation is surrender to the" will of another", as a child. "Salvation" is death to ones own will and living in the will of God! What do you believe the term "flesh" to mean?

the fact you are submitting is the exercise of your free will. One's will does not ever die, but that we use our wills for His purpose and not our own purpose.

Living in the flesh is to permit your will to be dominated by the passions of our flesh. It is letting our sinful nature rule through our wills. We need to curb that passion, deny ourselves, and take up His Cross and follow Him. It is all about our wills and how they govern everything we do.

All the texts you cited is the war every believer must fight between his spirit and the flesh. that war is fought through the will. We are given gifts by the Holy Spirit to assist us, including the Spirit Himself to ward of the influences of sin.
As much as God works to influence all men to acknowledge HIm, so Satan is also working in every human being, more so in Christians to entice them away from God. The vulcrum of that war is man's will. Which is why man will be held accountable for what he does.

 

[childeye]

Revelation is also premised on man's free will. Without free will revelation is moot.

Peace be unto you. I do not wish to foment any hostility and so I begin by saying this is my view in all honesty. I submit there are many definitions of free will, but most dictionaries describe a will as an ability to choose without any qualifier such as the word free. The ability to reason and choose however is therefore arguably not free since it is limited through knowledge and ignorance. One who views wealth in dollar values chooses differently than one who views wealth as a charitable tendency especially when one is himself poor.

There is therefore a carnal will and as scripture says, the carnal minded cannot submit to God. Hence if free will is to be predicated on the ability to morally choose, then revelation of Truth is the actual creation of a free will, a new mind and Spirit that is free from the subjugation of the soul to the flesh, which is why Jesus said, "the Truth shall set you free".

Since God calls all men to repentance to use the gifts they have which includes our free will to choose Him.

The call to repentance is the declaration that we all walk contrary to God in our wills, our choices. In any binary thought process a choice between options is imminent, not only in the context of men's ability to reason, but also because of circumstances outside of one's control. But to state the obvious, the objective view is that choice is in reality initiated by the existence of an option that must subjectively be traversed to proceed. Therefore a choice is inevitable even to a blind man who sees not where he goes and has no actual control.

What has choice to do with pride, it is an obligation of our very existance. It is expected of us.

I agree. As I said a choice is inevitable. So as to say in pertaining to morality, do I move Love or Love move me? I must choose which way I will believe. In so doing one either bears witness to a man's freely made choice to love of his own volition or bears witness to an Eternal Spirit that is the voice of compassion in one's heart. It could be said we choose whether or not to believe in free will not by our free will. Therefore the term free in front of will is relative.

While one may hear the voice of compassion, there is another voice that counters out of fear of what following compassion will cost. That voice uses the lust of the flesh to thwart compassion and that voice is the devil. The devil seeks to extinguish God as the Spirit of righteousness in mankind and claim such glory for ones self through the argument that it is by one's own prerogative that we choose between good and evil. Consequently scripture calls Leviathan the King of all the children of pride.

 

[Cassian]

Peace be unto you. I do not wish to foment any hostility and so I begin by saying this is my view in all honesty. I submit there are many definitions of free will, but most dictionaries describe a will as an ability to choose without any qualifier such as the word free. The ability to reason and choose however is therefore arguably not free since it is limited through knowledge and ignorance. One who views wealth in dollar values chooses differently than one who views wealth as a charitable tendency especially when one is himself poor.

There is therefore a carnal will and as scripture says, the carnal minded cannot submit to God. Hence if free will is to be predicated on the ability to morally choose, then revelation of Truth is the actual creation of a free will, a new mind and Spirit that is free from the subjugation of the soul to the flesh, which is why Jesus said, "the Truth shall set you free".


The call to repentance is the declaration that we all walk contrary to God in our wills, our choices. In any binary thought process a choice between options is imminent, not only in the context of men's ability to reason, but also because of circumstances outside of one's control. But to state the obvious, the objective view is that choice is in reality initiated by the existence of an option that must subjectively be traversed to proceed. Therefore a choice is inevitable even to a blind man who sees not where he goes and has no actual control. I agree. As I said a choice is inevitable. So as to say in pertaining to morality, do I move Love or Love move me? I must choose which way I will believe. In so doing one either bears witness to a man's freely made choice to love of his own volition or bears witness to an Eternal Spirit that is the voice of compassion in one's heart. It could be said we choose whether or not to believe in free will not by our free will. Therefore the term free in front of will is relative.

While one may hear the voice of compassion, there is another voice that counters out of fear of what following compassion will cost. That voice uses the lust of the flesh to thwart compassion and that voice is the devil. The devil seeks to extinguish God as the Spirit of righteousness in mankind and claim such glory for ones self through the argument that it is by one's own prerogative that we choose between good and evil. Consequently scripture calls Leviathan the King of all the children of pride.

You seem to bounce from one concept of free will to another. The word free has only the meaning of not being forced or coerced. Man has an independent will, it is not subject to force. Within the limitations of man's ability, our will must operate from sources of influence or have options. What we don't have is an autonomous will where we can also create the options. We are given options or influences are directed at us from which we make rational choices.

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa,

the fact you are submitting is the exercise of your free will. One's will does not ever die, but that we use our wills for His purpose and not our own purpose.

Living in the flesh is to permit your will to be dominated by the passions of our flesh. It is letting our sinful nature rule through our wills. We need to curb that passion, deny ourselves, and take up His Cross and follow Him. It is all about our wills and how they govern everything we do.

All the texts you cited is the war every believer must fight between his spirit and the flesh. that war is fought through the will. We are given gifts by the Holy Spirit to assist us, including the Spirit Himself to ward of the influences of sin.
As much as God works to influence all men to acknowledge HIm, so Satan is also working in every human being, more so in Christians to entice them away from God. The vulcrum of that war is man's will. Which is why man will be held accountable for what he does.

I must say, i can not(in view of scripture) agree with you on any point.
I wonder if some have become so determined to refute others teachings, that they are unable to see that others may have valid points. I am not 100 % sure of how much "my will" worked in receiving of Christ? I do know this without doubt, that Gods Will is to replace any of my own. That is Spiritual Growth, all else is the "flesh" dressed up in religion.

Php 2:12

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Php 2:13

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


"Fear" is the admission of the weakness of ones own mind. "Trembling" is the admission of the weakness of ones own body!

This allows the "will of God" to have its rightful place in the believer.

 

[Butch5]

I must say, i can not(in view of scripture) agree with you on any point.
I wonder if some have become so determined to refute others teachings, that they are unable to see that others may have valid points. I am not 100 % sure of how much "my will" worked in receiving of Christ? I do know this without doubt, that Gods Will is to replace any of my own. That is Spiritual Growth, all else is the "flesh" dressed up in religion.

Php 2:12

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Php 2:13

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


"Fear" is the admission of the weakness of ones own mind. "Trembling" is the admission of the weakness of ones own body!

This allows the "will of God" to have its rightful place in the believer.

Do you realize the passage you quoted proves Cassian's point

Php 2:12

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[Mitspa]

Do you realize the passage you quoted proves Cassian's point

Php 2:12



Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Good! i am not trying to make anyone seem wrong? but my point still stands!
Walking in the "Will of God" is death to ones own will. Its about surrender to His Will! Not boasting in my own! One might say that we make a conscience choice to surrender to the Will of God? But i would not use the term "free will" to descibe the obedience to the "Will of Another"
What do you mean by the term "free will"?

Php 2:13

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[Butch5]

Good! i am not trying to make anyone seem wrong? but my point still stands!
Walking in the "Will of God" is death to ones own will. Its about surrender to His Will! Not boasting in my own! One might say that we make a conscience choice to surrender to the Will of God? But i would not use the term "free will" to descibe the obedience to the "Will of Another"
What do you mean by the term "free will"?

Php 2:13

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Free will is the ability to choose between available options.

How is walking in God's will death to one's own will? Don't you still choose what time you will go to bed, what you willeat for dinner, or what you will do on weekends? Aren't these things determined by one's will?

 

[Mitspa]

Free will is the ability to choose between available options.

How is walking in God's will death to one's own will? Don't you still choose what time you will go to bed, what you willeat for dinner, or what you will do on weekends? Aren't these things determined by one's will?

Jas 4:13

Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
Jas 4:14

Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
Jas 4:15

For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

Jas 4:16

But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

You should pray always to be in Gods will. And if you have anything? food or bed or money to go? Who gave that to you and who are you responsible to for your actions?

 

[Cassian]

Mitspa,

I must say, i can not(in view of scripture) agree with you on any point.
I wonder if some have become so determined to refute others teachings, that they are unable to see that others may have valid points. I am not 100 % sure of how much "my will" worked in receiving of Christ? I do know this without doubt, that Gods Will is to replace any of my own. That is Spiritual Growth, all else is the "flesh" dressed up in religion.

then obviously you have a much different view than scriptuure regarding the purpose of man's existance and the relationship God wanted with man, who is created in His Image.

God's will replaces what you would do of yourself, but only by your choice. God does not do a single thing for you. If He did, He would do the same for all men thus all men would be in a relationship with Him because that is what He desires most because it is the ONLY reason He created man as He did.

YOu then quote Php 2:12 which is a solid statement of the requirement of man using his will, his desire, to be in a relationship with Christ. It is a mutual relationship. Whether you do or don't have this relationship is entirely within your will.

Php 2:13 tells you exactly what God does, which it is His work for you to believe. But it is ONLY you that can believe. God does not believe for you. God does not return His own love through you. It is wholly your will and desire that you return His love.

It is man's will that says, Yes. LOrd, what will you have me to do? But the doing is all your decision not His. Once you do decide to submit to HIm, He will assist you in that journey of faith. But again, you are free to leave that relationship at any time. It is freely entered, and can be freely rejected.

There is no text in scripture that God forces His will upon man. The Holy spirit leads, but does not do God's will through you. It is you that hears, listens, accepts and acknowledges what His will is and then it is you that does it. That is why you were created with a will, a rational soul, and independent will from that of God. It is why God needed to reveal Himself to us, to give us knowledge of Himself and what He expects of us. If it was God doing it, we would not need to know. We would be robots just doing things by rote as mere players upon a stage.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Yes Believing is a Work !


We know that believing is a work by Jesus statement here Jn 8:39

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Now think about it, what are the works of Abraham they would do if they were Abraham's real children ? The works of Abraham that would constitute them and manifest them the True Children of Abraham, is believing on Christ or Faith Gal 3:7

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Now this statement by Christ in Jn 8:39, makes it quite clear, that He equates or regards Faith and or Believing as Works !

Now, understand this, if one says they are Justified or Saved before God, on the basis of their Faith or believing, then they are witnessing to Salvation and or Justification before God by Works, which is contrary to scripture and even Abraham's own Justification before God Eph 2:8-9 and Rom 4:1-2

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

If Abraham was Justified by his act of believing, then he could boast or glory, but not before God !

 

[Eventide]

Have faith in God...

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Faith in God...

Not to mention the other seemingly countless OT patriarchs who were also justified by faith..

In God.

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa,



then obviously you have a much different view than scriptuure regarding the purpose of man's existance and the relationship God wanted with man, who is created in His Image.

You do understand that man fell from the place God first placed him?That the "flesh" is completly currupt? That nothing good lives in our "natural self"? That in order to worship and please God we must deny our natural condition, and enter into the "Spirit", by way of the "Truth" of the "living" Word.

Here is Gods only acceptable way of service and only way of pleasing God!

2Co 3:17

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2Co 3:18


But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

James calls this the perfect "law of liberty" setting us "free" from the evil of our natural mind with its desire and will.

Now the term "free will" seems to be a very odd term to descibe how one serves "The Will of Another",that being the Will of God!
I dont know about you, but i seek to be in "His Will" from the point i wake to the point i sleep. I even ask His Will in my dreams. I am a slave to Christ, a "glad slave" but yet a slave to "His Will".

All the "free will" of man must be put to the Cross! What you descibed in the rest of your post is "surrendered will" Now you may say you have done that by choice? OK! But the allusion that man has the ability to please God by his "own will" is indeed a false form of worship.

 

[Cassian]

You do understand that man fell from the place God first placed him?That the "flesh" is completly currupt? That nothing good lives in our "natural self"? That in order to worship and please God we must deny our natural condition, and enter into the "Spirit", by way of the "Truth" of the "living" Word.

Man is not completely corrupt. He is corrupt. There have been many righteous individuals as recorded in scripture.

When you say that we must deny our natural condition is an impossibility first of all. Our natural condition is that we are mortal and we sin easily. Man fell, and lost life. Christ restored the Image of God back to man with His death and resurrection. In fact, because of His resurrection our wills became purposeful again. Man can now exercise his will and it will have consequences for each person. It is through our wills that we actually deny ourselves and submit to God's will.

Here is Gods only acceptable way of service and only way of pleasing God!

2Co 3:17

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2Co 3:18


But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

James calls this the perfect "law of liberty" setting us "free" from the evil of our natural mind with its desire and will.

but these texts once again invoke the use of man's will. When it says that we are changed, or transformed, this is done by God but done only because man submits his will to that conforming and then keeps His will in line with God's will. You are not getting a different will, or surely not getting the actual will of God.

This is precisely the working out of our salvation, a text you quoted before. Our personal salvation is a mutual working out of man with God. We cannot save ourselves alone, nor can God save us alone. It takes both to occomplish the salvation of one's soul.

Now the term "free will" seems to be a very odd term to descibe how one serves "The Will of Another",that being the Will of God!

All it means is that God in His sovereign will created us with an independent will. God's intent was that man would freely use that will to respond to God in a living eternal union. It means then that God cannot force man to do what man does. God can direct, can lead, can influence, but cannot force man to actually do His will or desire. That is why man will and can be held accountable for his actions regarding the purpose of why God created man.

I dont know about you, but i seek to be in "His Will" from the point i wake to the point i sleep. I even ask His Will in my dreams. I am a slave to Christ, a "glad slave" but yet a slave to "His Will".

Your very language here confirms the working of YOUR will. You state that you seek to be in His will. It is a work of your free, uncoerced will to obey, follow, to deny oneself and live according to His will. God is not doing His will through you. You are choosing to be a slave for Christ. You can also change your mind and become a slave to sin again as well.

All the "free will" of man must be put to the Cross! What you descibed in the rest of your post is "surrendered will" Now you may say you have done that by choice? OK! But the allusion that man has the ability to please God by his "own will" is indeed a false form of worship.

It's not an illusion. It is precisely the reason God created man. To be able freely to live according to His revealed will. All men have the ability, and capability to see God, believe in God, to do His will if they desire to do so. We were all created with the means to do this, even in our fallen state. We have help which is why our salvation is a mutual one with the working together of God with each individual. We were not created isolated entities as you seem to imply when you say it is an illusion that man by "his own will" can worship God.

There is such a link of man to God, ability to know God, and God's knowledge ingraved upon man, that man must actually actively reject that knowledge. This is what Paul is saying in Rom 1:18-24.

God is going to hold every single human being accountable for the knowledge and measure of grace He has given to each.

 

[savedbygrace57]

cas

Man is not completely corrupt.

Thats false teaching, show one scripture that says that !

In the mean time here is God's indictment of men Isa 1:4-6

4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

Our heart by nature is desperately wicked Jer 17:9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

The word desperately means: incurable ! incurably wicked !

 

[Eventide]

Adam heard the voice of God...

Some may falsely teach that man in his fallen Adamic state cannot hear or understand the voice of God..

That's obviously nonsense.. right from the the fall in the garden we see God calling to Adam and Adam understanding that call.. there was even a conversation for crying out loud.. not to mention the multitudes which Christ (God) spoke to while He was here..

It's 100% absolute nonsense that man can't hear or understand the gospel call.. and we know He is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.

Man in his natural state can certainly not discern the deep things of God, but the call to repentance and faith in Christ, absolutely no doubt about it.

 

[Mitspa]

cas



Thats false teaching, show one scripture that says that !

In the mean time here is God's indictment of men Isa 1:4-6

4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

Our heart by nature is desperately wicked Jer 17:9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

The word desperately means: incurable ! incurably wicked !

Please give a scriptual answer to this question. When you understand the answer you will understand the meaning of biblical terms. What does "flesh" mean? What does the" natural mind" mean? Please give a scriptual answer!

 

[savedbygrace57]

Please give a scriptual answer to this question. When you understand the answer you will understand the meaning of biblical terms. What does "flesh" mean? What does the" natural mind" mean? Please give a scriptual answer!

To do those things takes study, I am not here to study for you, study yourself, bring the fruit of your understanding. But for you to ask me to do things that require study for your point, I will not do, if you notice, when I bring a point up, I have studied it and bring the fruit of that study, now you do the same !

 

[childeye]

You seem to bounce from one concept of free will to another. The word free has only the meaning of not being forced or coerced.

Peace be unto you. I do not disagree with your statement. In fact it supports the defintion of what is an enslaved will, one that is coerced.

2 Timothy 2:26

King James Version (KJV)

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Hebrews 2:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.