GOD CREATED MAN (ADAM) SINFUL

[jeremiah1five]

I believe all that Jesus said.
I believe that the lovers of evil hate God.
I believe that some grow weary of their love for evil and turn from their sin and unto God.
I rejoice that things have changed since David wrote in his Psalm saying that none seek after God.
I am certainly glad that David, and I, sought God.
God didn't have to force me to seek Him.

That is the gist of our exchange isn't it?
That God forces men to repent and turn to Him?

I posted the Scripture that says NONE SEEK GOD and you refuse to receive it and say people get weary of evil and turn from their sin seek God. Sin is a bondage. Someone has to first bind the strong man before they can take spoil. The strong man is sin and the stronger is Christ.

God doesn't force men. Repentance is a gift, for one, and when one in bondage to sin is freed they have no where else to go: God. Whom the Son sets free is free indeed.

And David was in Covenant with God as a Hebrew from the Tribe of Judah.

 

[BB1956]

Adam was not punished, but received the consequences for being disobedient to God's command.

God's moral standards don't change like human beings moral standards change. Exodus 34:6, 7 shows us that God will not leave the guilty unpunished. The consequences you speak of that Adam received, is punishment for his disobedience because Adam was guilty of disobedience. Punishment is suffering some kind of loss, which Adam did suffer loss because he eventually died, so he lost eternal life, and he lost his home in Eden which was a paradise compared to where God sent him to live after his disobedience. The scriptures show that God always punishes those guilty of disobedience.

 

[jeremiah1five]

God's moral standards don't change like human beings moral standards change. Exodus 34:6, 7 shows us that God will not leave the guilty unpunished. The consequences you speak of that Adam received, is punishment for his disobedience because Adam was guilty of disobedience. Punishment is suffering some kind of loss, which Adam did suffer loss because he eventually died, so he lost eternal life, and he lost his home in Eden which was a paradise compared to where God sent him to live after his disobedience. The scriptures show that God always punishes those guilty of disobedience.

Yes, Adam received punishment for his disobedience. But if God did not command THOU SHALT NOT there would be no disobedience because 'by the law is the knowledge of sin.'
Rom. 3:20.

And it was the mere command of God (THOU SHALT NOT) by which the Scripture teaches that Adam was a sinner BEFORE he sinned. By the Law (or Command) is the knowledge of sin. Sin comes from sinner. Wickedness comes from the wicked. Adam sinned and disobeyed God's command because he was a sinner. It's not hard to understand.

By the way, even if Adam was not under restriction of command and if no command of THOU SHALT NOT he would have eventually died. He was NOT eternal.

Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Gen. 3:22.

I know what some are going to say, "God didn't want him to live forever in 'that' sinful condition.'" Well, if eating from the Tree of Life would give Adam eternal life, then he wasn't eternal to begin with. This fact also proves Adam was created sin-ful, and as the word in Greek [harmatia] is defined ('missing the mark') this shows Adam was fallen short of the glory of God. And this means sin-ful.

 

[Highway54]

You contradict yourself. How can one be sinless - which is the nature of Christ - and yet be able to sin. Christ was sinless without the ability to sin. Adam was not sinless and perfect for sin does not come from sinless and perfect. Sin comes from sinners.

And Adam had no free will. He was created a sinner and in bondage to his sinful dirt nature which is why he sinned. And dirt is not sinless or holy. It's a body of this death, Paul said - and for good reason:

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Rom. 7:24–25.

Now, the following is Christianity 101. Let's see if you understand it:

If there is no human law against spitting on the sidewalk and I spit on the sidewalk - even in front of the police - I cannot be cited or arrested for spitting on the sidewalk.

But IF there is a law that says "thou shalt not spit on the sidewalk" and I spit on the sidewalk - whether or not a policeman is there - I have broken the law, right?

"for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Rom. 3:20.

Now look at what Paul says:

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law
Rom. 5:13.

And

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression. Rom. 5:14.

It doesn't say from Adam's disobedience death reigned, but from Adam the person death reigned - EVEN OVER THEM THAT HAD NOT SINNED AFTER THE SIMILITUDE OF ADAM'S TRANSGRESSION.

Sin - or death - was in the world from Adam to Moses. Back to Christianity 101, the Law shows us we are sinners. If there was no law against eating the forbidden fruit then there would be no evidence Adam was a sinner. But given the law God spoke to Adam of THOU SHALT NOT (eat of it) it proves Adam was a sinner before he sinned. And that's my premise of this post. God created man (Adam) sin-ful which means Adam was not sinless, perfect, holy, innocent, or neutral in his moral disposition. He sinned BECASUE he was a sinner, he is NOT a sinner because he sinned. To take the second part of this last statement destroys the doctrine of imputation of 2 Cor. 5:21.

"for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Rom. 3:20.

And the command/law was in the garden of Eden BEFORE the actual act of sin or law-breaking by Adam.

Adam had no free will. He was created a sinner

We disagree Jeremiah, I do not believe God is to blame, but time will reveal if you are correct sir.

 

[JLB]

If you're still confessing sins, you are still a sinner.

As I walk in the light, I will continue to be cleansed from my sins, because I don’t hide from Him, I confess my sin.


But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7



JLB

 

[JLB]

I would like to add the below to what you have said.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

I have progressively grown in my ability to walk in the Spirit, and therefore not to sin in obvious ways like I used to.

Adding a consistent fasting regimen is a major key.


However, I have discovered the more I am conformed to His image, the more I can see what I used to think wasn’t sin, really is… and it is sooooo subtle, because it involves motive.

The more I ask for eye salve, the better I can see my condition.


That’s why it’s called Transformation, because it’s a process.



God is soooooo good, and His mercy endures forever.




JLB

 

[BB1956]

Yes, Adam received punishment for his disobedience. But if God did not command THOU SHALT NOT there would be no disobedience because 'by the law is the knowledge of sin.'
Rom. 3:20.

And it was the mere command of God (THOU SHALT NOT) by which the Scripture teaches that Adam was a sinner BEFORE he sinned. By the Law (or Command) is the knowledge of sin. Sin comes from sinner. Wickedness comes from the wicked. Adam sinned and disobeyed God's command because he was a sinner. It's not hard to understand.

By the way, even if Adam was not under restriction of command and if no command of THOU SHALT NOT he would have eventually died. He was NOT eternal.

Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Gen. 3:22.

I know what some are going to say, "God didn't want him to live forever in 'that' sinful condition.'" Well, if eating from the Tree of Life would give Adam eternal life, then he wasn't eternal to begin with. This fact also proves Adam was created sin-ful, and as the word in Greek [harmatia] is defined ('missing the mark') this shows Adam was fallen short of the glory of God. And this means sin-ful.

I disagree that the fact that there was a mere command of God(THOU SHALT NOT) that proves Adam a sinner. I believe you're trying to make Genesis 2:16,17 and the law covenant as being the same, and they're not. Romans 3:20 is talking about the law covenant.The Law Covenant was given to Israel through Moses from God, and so it was perfect, but neither the Law, its priesthood, nor the sacrifices brought perfection to those under the Law, as the inspired apostle shows. (Hebrews 7:11, 19; 10:1; ) Rather than bring freedom from sin and death, it actually made sin more evident, not merely make known. Adam knew it would be disobedient, therefore a sin if he disobeyed God concerning the forbidden tree. God told Adam not to eat of the forbidden tree(THOU SHALT NOT) because God wanted Adam to live, that why he said THOU SHALT NOT. A person even implying that God wanted Adam to eat of the forbidden tree isn't true.

The fact that God told Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree proves not only that God didn't want Adam to die, and that it wasn't God's will or purpose or God's plan for Adam to die but it shows that Adam was capable of living forever if he had been obedient. You will find no scripture that says that death came into existence any other way except for Adam disobeying God concerning the forbidden tree.

You saying that Adam would have died anyway if he had been obedient concerning the forbidden tree, I disagree with because you have no scriptural proof concerning that statement. All you have is your interpretation of scripture which you have the right to and right to express but I disagree with it.

But I can see flaws in how you believe though. The scriptures say that God will not give his glory to no one. Since you believe that because God created Adam short of his glory this is he reason Adam was a sinner or a sinful person, which basically means you believe sin exists because God created Adam short of his glory. So because you believe that way, you have just thrown everyone's hope away, because you're saying anybody exercising faith in scriptures such as John 3:16 and John 17:3 are meaningless. See creation, meaning all of us, will always be short of Gods glory for eternity, because like you said the scriptures say God will give his glory to no one. So since you believe its Adam being created short of Gods glory the reason there is sin and death in existence you're saying sin and death will always exist, because you say it's that God created Adam short of his glory, that sin and death exist. You're saying these scriptures are false because you're saying the only way for persons to live forever, to not die, is if God gives his glory to all , which will never happen since the scriptures say God will give his glory to no one. Like you said the scriptures teach that God will give his glory to no one, so all creation will always be short of God's glory so creation will always be sinful or that in creation sin and death will always exist.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The fact that God told Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree proves not only that God didn't want Adam to die, and that it wasn't God's will or purpose or God's plan for Adam to die but it shows that Adam was capable of living forever if he had been obedient. You will find no scripture that says that death came into existence any other way except for Adam disobeying God concerning the forbidden tree.

You saying that Adam would have died anyway if he had been obedient concerning the forbidden tree, I disagree with because you have no scriptural proof concerning that statement. All you have is your interpretation of scripture which you have the right to and right to express but I disagree with it.

But I can see flaws in how you believe though. The scriptures say that God will not give his glory to no one. Since you believe that because God created Adam short of his glory this is he reason Adam was a sinner or a sinful person, which basically means you believe sin exists because God created Adam short of his glory. So because you believe that way, you have just thrown everyone's hope away, because you're saying anybody exercising faith in scriptures such as John 3:16 and John 17:3 are meaningless. See creation, meaning all of us, will always be short of Gods glory for eternity, because like you said the scriptures say God will give his glory to no one. So since you believe its Adam being created short of Gods glory the reason there is sin and death in existence you're saying sin and death will always exist, because you say it's that God created Adam short of his glory, that sin and death exist. You're saying these scriptures are false because you're saying the only way for persons to live forever, to not die, is if God gives his glory to all , which will never happen since the scriptures say God will give his glory to no one. Like you said the scriptures teach that God will give his glory to no one, so all creation will always be short of God's glory so creation will always be sinful or that in creation sin and death will always exist.

QUOTE: The fact that God told Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree proves not only that God didn't want Adam to die, and that it wasn't God's will or purpose or God's plan for Adam to die but it shows that Adam was capable of living forever if he had been obedient. You will find no scripture that says that death came into existence any other way except for Adam disobeying God concerning the forbidden tree.
RESPONSE: God created man (Adam) sin-ful. Sin is death. Adam would have eventually died even if he did not disobey God. If Adam was eternal as you seem to believe then number one, Adam possessed a Deific attribute of God, in this case, eternal-ness. BUT if Adam did not possess ALL the Deific attributes of God then he would have fallen short of the glory of God. He didn't possess ALL the attributes of God for there is ONLY ONE GOD, God gives His glory to NO ONE, and there is NONE like Him. If Adam was eternal as you believe why would there be a need to prevent him from eating from the tree of life to live forever?

QUOTE: You saying that Adam would have died anyway if he had been obedient concerning the forbidden tree, I disagree with because you have no scriptural proof concerning that statement. All you have is your interpretation of scripture which you have the right to and right to express but I disagree with it.
RESPONSE: Here's a couple of Scriptures that prove my position in this post although I don't believe you will receive the Scripture I post.

For the creature (man/Adam) was made (created) subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom. 8:20–23.

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is cthe Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly
1 Co 15:42–49.

I know this is a lot but let's see if you not only understand the Scripture but also will accept it.

QUOTE: But I can see flaws in how you believe though. The scriptures say that God will not give his glory to no one. Since you believe that because God created Adam short of his glory this is he reason Adam was a sinner or a sinful person, which basically means you believe sin exists because God created Adam short of his glory. So because you believe that way, you have just thrown everyone's hope away, because you're saying anybody exercising faith in scriptures such as John 3:16 and John 17:3 are meaningless.
RESPONSE: Nope. I am not saying that to take away peoples' hope. You are reading things into my statements that aren't there.

QUOTE: See creation, meaning all of us, will always be short of Gods glory for eternity, because like you said the scriptures say God will give his glory to no one. So since you believe its Adam being created short of Gods glory the reason there is sin and death in existence you're saying sin and death will always exist, because you say it's that God created Adam short of his glory, that sin and death exist. You're saying these scriptures are false because you're saying the only way for persons to live forever, to not die, is if God gives his glory to all , which will never happen since the scriptures say God will give his glory to no one. Like you said the scriptures teach that God will give his glory to no one, so all creation will always be short of God's glory so creation will always be sinful or that in creation sin and death will always exist.
RESPONSE: You have an understanding deficiency and you read things into my comments that are not there. I'll leave it at that. Thanks for responding.

 

[Hopeful]

The scripture at Romans 5:12 says, "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned. The scriptures that show how Adam would receive death is at Genesis 2:16,17 which says, "Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.” So Genesis 2:16,17 teach us that Adam would die if he disobeyed this command when told not eat from this forbidden tree. Genesis 3:17-19 shows that Adam was told he would die because he disobeyed the command stated at Genesis 2:16,17. Because of the sin of disobedience when Adam and Eve had children they passed sin and death on to their offspring(children).

What sin did Abel commit?
What sin can a baby commit?
Let's look at the next two verses of Rom 5...13 "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
No Law, no imputation of sin.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,..."
Here we see even Paul acknowledging some who did not sin as Adam sinned.
Adam passed death along to the future, but the sins are of our own doing.
That and Ezek 18:20 show me that Adam's sin is not passed down to me,..."The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
Even if Paul was only referring to grown ups, some of them didn't commit sin either.
Enoch, Elijah, Samuel, John the Baptist.

Romans 5:12 states that “through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” (1John 1:8-10.) Some have explained this as meaning that all of Adam’s future offspring shared in Adam’s initial act of sin because, as their family head, he represented them and thereby made them, in effect, participants with him in his sin. The apostle, however, speaks of death as ‘spreading’ to all men, which implies a progressive rather than a simultaneous effect on Adam’s descendants.

If true, it was nullified with Ezek 18:20.

Also, the apostle goes on to speak of death as ruling as king “from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam."(Romans 5:14) Adam’s sin is rightly called a “transgression” since it was an overstepping of a stated law, an express command of God to him. Also, when Adam sinned, it was of his own free choice, as a perfect human who was free from disabilities. Clearly, his offspring have never enjoyed that state of perfection. So, these factors seem out of harmony with the view that ‘when Adam sinned, all of his as yet unborn descendants sinned with him.’ For all of Adam’s descendants to be held accountable as participants in Adam’s personal sin would require some expression of "will" on their part as to having him as their family head. Yet none of them in reality willed to be born of him, their birth into the Adamic line resulting from the fleshly will of their parents.(John 1:13)

The evidence, then, points to a passing on of sin from Adam to succeeding generations as a result of the recognized law of heredity. This is evidently what Psalms 51:5 refers to, when it says, “With error I was brought forth with birth pains, and in sin my mother conceived me.” Sin, along with its consequences, entered and spread to all the human race not merely because Adam was the family head of the race but because he, not Eve, was its progenitor, or human life source. From him, as well as from Eve, his offspring would inescapably inherit not merely physical characteristics but also personality traits, including the inclination toward sin.(1Corinthians 15:22, 48, 49)

As far as Adams and Eve descendants being born in sin, obviously Jesus Christ parents Joseph and Mary were born in sin. So because Mary was a descendant of the sinner Adam, she herself was imperfect and sinful. The question some people raise is how Jesus, Mary’s “firstborn” (Luke 2:7), could be perfect and free from sin in his physical organism. While modern geneticists have learned much about laws of heredity and about dominant and recessive characteristics, they have had no experience in learning the results of uniting perfection with imperfection, as was the case with Jesus’ conception. Whatever the case, it was the operation of God’s holy spirit at the time that guaranteed the success of God’s purpose. As the angel Gabriel explained to Mary, “power of the Most High” overshadowed her so that what was born was holy, God’s Son. God’s holy spirit formed, as it were, a protective wall so that no imperfection or hurtful force could damage, or blemish, the developing embryo, from conception onward.(Luke 1:35)

I see no reason to go into great depth on the subject, as we have been enabled to be reborn of God's seed now in the NT.
Perhaps that is why the Holy Ghost caused Paul to write about it at all.
To supply us an opening to the modern, (Testament wise), teachings of grace, forgiveness, and permanent repentance from sin

 

[Hopeful]

As I walk in the light, I will continue to be cleansed from my sins, because I don’t hide from Him, I confess my sin.
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7
JLB

The light is God...right?
"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5)
So how did you get your darkness/sin into God?
I thought scripture said that was impossible? ...and in Him is no darkness at all.

 

[JLB]

Christianity is completed Judaism.

Judaism is the antichrist religion.

God gave the law of Moses to the children of Israel, temporarily until the Messiah should come.

Judaism is a mixture of the law of Moses and the tradition (teachings) of man, which include the writings in the Talmud.

The Talmud openly rejects Jesus as the Messiah, and denies He is the Son of God.

Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 1 John 2:22

Judaism is not the law of Moses.


So no, absolutely not, Christianity is not completed Judaism.


That is completely and blatantly false.





JLB

 

[Tenchi]

“Sin” or “sinful” as Strong defines the word means "missing the mark."

Well, in Greek, "sin" might have this as its root meaning, but God tells us in His word what He means by sin (and iniquity and transgression):

James 4:17 (NASB)
17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Romans 7:7-8 (NASB)
7 ...I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

Romans 14:22-23 (NASB)
22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

James 1:15 (NASB)
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin...

James 2:10 (NASB)
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

1 John 3:4 (NASB)
4 ...sin is lawlessness.

1 John 5:17 (NASB)
17 All unrighteousness is sin...

And so on. "Missing the mark" is not nearly a robust enough definition of what God in His word defines as "sin" and, in fact, seems to downplay the seriousness of sin, in my view.

What is the "mark?"
The mark (or standard) is the glory of God (or the glory that is God.)

God is fully glorious whether we sin or not; we can't diminish His glory by failing to glorify Him, but we can certainly disobey Him and live in rebellion toward Him, suffering hurt as a result. In any case, in the verses above I don't see any connection between sin and God's glory, only between sin and God's Law (written on paper/papyrus/stone tablets and on the heart of every person in the form of their conscience).

I used to believe early when after I was saved because I was taught this from the pulpit that man/Adam was created sinless, was holy, and innocent before he disobeyed God and ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and became a sinner.

Scripture offers no other understanding of the state of Adam and Eve in Eden before the Fall.

the Holy Spirit within me began to teach me things about this "so-great salvation" that contradicted at times the teachings from the pulpit and Home Bible-Study instructors,

Uh oh. This kind of remark is often a precursor to doctrinal craziness...

Do I believe what I am hearing, or do I believe the Scripture and the anointing that was so very evident in my life and in my studies.

Okay...

I find no difference between these two Directives: The Law of God and the Commands of God. The Law of God are His Commands, and the Commands of God are Law.

Well, there are the laws of ceremony, sacrifice and separation given solely to Israel and then there is God's Moral Law given to all, written, in fact, on the hearts of all people. Under the New Covenant, Christians are entirely free of the laws of ceremony, sacrifice and separation but not from God's Moral Law. (Galatians, Hebrews)

We find in Scripture that the existence of the Law shows us that we are indeed sinners.
A very good, clear, and concise instruction from the apostle Paul on this very thing is found in his letter to the Christians at Rome. He says:

Romans 7:7 (KJV)
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Simply put, the existence of a Law shows us that we are sinners. "Thou shalt not steal" shows us we are thieves. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" shows us that we are unfaithful, and so on.

Is this what Scripture actually says? Sinners are those who are guilty of sin, who contravene God's Moral Law that is written on their heart. And so, since all people contravene their conscience quite often, which is the "voice" of God's Moral Law communicating with us, we are all of us guilty of breaking God's Law and thus are sinners. We don't need a written code of moral rules to sin, then; we don't need a Moral Law document telling us that adultery is wrong; we know adultery, stealing, murder, rape, cowardice, betrayal, laziness, glutton, and so on are wrong because our conscience pricks us when we do these things. Of course, we can sin such that the "voice" of God's Moral Law written on our heart (aka - our conscience) falls silent, but that's a different discussion, I think.

When God created man/Adam from the dust of the ground, the man/Adam possessed no Deific Attributes. God did not give His glory to man. It is quite impossible really, as God cannot re-duplicate, transfer, share, give, any aspect of His Nature and His glory to created matter - in the case of man/Adam who was created from something – the dust of the ground, the earth.

Genesis 1:27 (NASB)
27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Genesis 9:6 (NASB)
6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.

None of us are omniscient, or omnipotent, or omnipresent, or perfect in holiness, wisdom, love, justice, etc. But we are, nonetheless, made in God's image, possessing, as He does, the capacity for humor, self-awareness, making moral distinctions, appreciating beauty, planning for the future, love, etc. In these respects (and others) we are very much "in God's image."

So, as we consider man/Adam in his creation and apply the Law/Command of God to Adam, and the fact that the existence of [the] Law shows us we are sinners, so does this apply to Adam? Very simple: The Law/Command of God is in the Garden showing Adam (and us) that Adam was sinner before he disobeyed God:

??? This is a GIANT non sequitur. On its face, it's nonsensical. How can one be a sinner when one has not sinned, as was initially the case for Adam and Eve in Eden? Our circumstance, too, is very different from the one in which Adam first existed. There was no sin, no Fall, no curse, no corruption when Adam was made. Adam had the capacity to choose to sin, yes, but until he used it to choose disobedience toward God, he remained innocent and free of the curse and corruption of sin. You and I, though, are born into a world thoroughly steeped in sin and all its attendant destructive consequences - including an innate and incorrigible selfishness inherited from Adam from which all our sin ultimately arises. Until we exercise that selfishness willfully, in violation of God's Law, we are innocent of sin.

The image of God is Christ, not Adam.

This is a false dichotomy. It is not that either Christ bears God's image, or Adam does, but not both. Rather, it is that Christ bears God's image perfectly while we mere humans bear His image in a much-reduced and corrupted way. There is no mutual exclusivity necessary in this matter of divine image-bearing.

Man/Adam was created sin-ful, or "missing the mark [of the glory of God]."

But this isn't what God says in His word constitutes sin, or sinfulness. See above. Also, under your definition, it seems to me that Christ himself would be sinful because, in becoming the God-Man, he set aside his heavenly glory.

Philippians 2:6-7 (NASB)
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

He sinned because he was a sinner. He is not a sinner because he sinned.

Wow. What a lesson in poor thinking and bad hermeneutics! Whew.

 

[for_his_glory]

God's moral standards don't change like human beings moral standards change. Exodus 34:6, 7 shows us that God will not leave the guilty unpunished. The consequences you speak of that Adam received, is punishment for his disobedience because Adam was guilty of disobedience. Punishment is suffering some kind of loss, which Adam did suffer loss because he eventually died, so he lost eternal life, and he lost his home in Eden which was a paradise compared to where God sent him to live after his disobedience. The scriptures show that God always punishes those guilty of disobedience.

Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Where is the word punished used in those scriptures?

Adam and Eve were created without sin and with the ability to live forever, but after their fall and all those preceding the flood with sin running rampant God said, my Spirit shall not abide in man forever for he is flesh, his days shall be a hundred and twenty years, Genesis 6:1-3. As sin increased the age of men became less because of all the sin that dwelled in them. What Adam has now, like all who are of faith in God that have physically died, will have eternal life when Christ returns and they are resurrected from their graves, John 5:28-29.

God proclaimed that the penalty of sin is spiritual death and separation from God, for the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23. It's not God that punishes or condemns anyone, but they who continue in their sin have already condemned themselves for they would rather walk in darkness instead of newness of the light.

 

[jeremiah1five]

What sin did Abel commit?
What sin can a baby commit?
Let's look at the next two verses of Rom 5...13 "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
No Law, no imputation of sin.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,..."
Here we see even Paul acknowledging some who did not sin as Adam sinned.
Adam passed death along to the future, but the sins are of our own doing.
That and Ezek 18:20 show me that Adam's sin is not passed down to me,..."The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
Even if Paul was only referring to grown ups, some of them didn't commit sin either.
Enoch, Elijah, Samuel, John the Baptist.

If true, it was nullified with Ezek 18:20.

I see no reason to go into great depth on the subject, as we have been enabled to be reborn of God's seed now in the NT.
Perhaps that is why the Holy Ghost caused Paul to write about it at all.
To supply us an opening to the modern, (Testament wise), teachings of grace, forgiveness, and permanent repentance from sin

If Abel committed any sin it's not listed. But there was need for a sacrifice for sin and sin nature he was born with.
A baby doesn't have to commit a sin. Babies are born with a sin nature as part of their inheritance from their parents who were created with a sin nature for there is ONLY ONE GOD, there is none like him, and He gives His glory to NO ONE. But you neither accept the Scripture I post from Isaiah nor understand it. You continue to say it was the act of sin that made Adam a sinner when the Scripture teaches he and she were created sin-ful, fallen short of the glory of God. Adam was a sinner. THAT'S WHY he sinned. Sin comes from sinner.

I agree. Adam passed his sin nature to his children and they in turn passed it to their children etc. and on and on. A son does not have to pay for the sins of the father. But that is irrelevant when Adam was created with a sin nature and all mankind is born with a sin nature. It definitely is not a holy nature unless you want to say that sin comes from holy - which is what you continue to posit by saying it is the act of sin that makes one a sinner. You seem to ignore that the command THOU SHALT NOT in the garden teaches that Adam and Eve were sin-ful BEFORE the act of disobedience. Sin, which is what Adam and the woman did, CAME FROM SINNER.

Tell me...does sin come from sinner?

Or

Does sin come from holy?

Which?

 

[Hopeful]

If Abel committed any sin it's not listed. But there was need for a sacrifice for sin and sin nature he was born with.
A baby doesn't have to commit a sin. Babies are born with a sin nature as part of their inheritance from their parents who were created with a sin nature for there is ONLY ONE GOD, there is none like him, and He gives His glory to NO ONE. But you neither accept the Scripture I post from Isaiah nor understand it. You continue to say it was the act of sin that made Adam a sinner when the Scripture teaches he and she were created sin-ful, fallen short of the glory of God. Adam was a sinner. THAT'S WHY he sinned. Sin comes from sinner.
I agree. Adam passed his sin nature to his children and they in turn passed it to their children etc. and on and on. A son does not have to pay for the sins of the father. But that is irrelevant when Adam was created with a sin nature and all mankind is born with a sin nature. It definitely is not a holy nature unless you want to say that sin comes from holy - which is what you continue to posit by saying it is the act of sin that makes one a sinner. You seem to ignore that the command THOU SHALT NOT in the garden teaches that Adam and Eve were sin-ful BEFORE the act of disobedience. Sin, which is what Adam and the woman did, CAME FROM SINNER.

Tell me...does sin come from sinner?
Or
Does sin come from holy?
Which?

Sin is committed by those who forsake righteousness.
Non-sinners turn into sinners by sinning.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Sin is committed by those who forsake righteousness.
Non-sinners turn into sinners by sinning.

So you believe Adam was a non-sinner? Was he holy? Was he righteous and sinless? Because those are attributes of God and in order to be Perfect before God like His Son one has to possess ALL Deific attributes of God or that person falls short of the glory of God. The Bible calls that sinner.

 

[BB1956]

QUOTE: The fact that God told Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree proves not only that God didn't want Adam to die, and that it wasn't God's will or purpose or God's plan for Adam to die but it shows that Adam was capable of living forever if he had been obedient. You will find no scripture that says that death came into existence any other way except for Adam disobeying God concerning the forbidden tree.
RESPONSE: God created man (Adam) sin-ful. Sin is death. Adam would have eventually died even if he did not disobey God. If Adam was eternal as you seem to believe then number one, Adam possessed a Deific attribute of God, in this case, eternal-ness. BUT if Adam did not possess ALL the Deific attributes of God then he would have fallen short of the glory of God. He didn't possess ALL the attributes of God for there is ONLY ONE GOD, God gives His glory to NO ONE, and there is NONE like Him. If Adam was eternal as you believe why would there be a need to prevent him from eating from the tree of life to live forever?

QUOTE: You saying that Adam would have died anyway if he had been obedient concerning the forbidden tree, I disagree with because you have no scriptural proof concerning that statement. All you have is your interpretation of scripture which you have the right to and right to express but I disagree with it.
RESPONSE: Here's a couple of Scriptures that prove my position in this post although I don't believe you will receive the Scripture I post.

For the creature (man/Adam) was made (created) subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom. 8:20–23.

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is cthe Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly
1 Co 15:42–49.

I know this is a lot but let's see if you not only understand the Scripture but also will accept it.

QUOTE: But I can see flaws in how you believe though. The scriptures say that God will not give his glory to no one. Since you believe that because God created Adam short of his glory this is he reason Adam was a sinner or a sinful person, which basically means you believe sin exists because God created Adam short of his glory. So because you believe that way, you have just thrown everyone's hope away, because you're saying anybody exercising faith in scriptures such as John 3:16 and John 17:3 are meaningless.
RESPONSE: Nope. I am not saying that to take away peoples' hope. You are reading things into my statements that aren't there.

QUOTE: See creation, meaning all of us, will always be short of Gods glory for eternity, because like you said the scriptures say God will give his glory to no one. So since you believe its Adam being created short of Gods glory the reason there is sin and death in existence you're saying sin and death will always exist, because you say it's that God created Adam short of his glory, that sin and death exist. You're saying these scriptures are false because you're saying the only way for persons to live forever, to not die, is if God gives his glory to all , which will never happen since the scriptures say God will give his glory to no one. Like you said the scriptures teach that God will give his glory to no one, so all creation will always be short of God's glory so creation will always be sinful or that in creation sin and death will always exist.
RESPONSE: You have an understanding deficiency and you read things into my comments that are not there. I'll leave it at that. Thanks for responding.

You and I are going to disagree because I honestly believe you're ignoring scripture, and want people to go by your interpretation of scripture instead. Not that you don't have a right to your interpretation, I just don't agree with it. The scriptures you give I disagree supports you're belief. I find nowhere in scripture that God planned, or that it was God's purpose for Adam to die.The fact that in scripture God said to Adam, to not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and Evil, is proof that God didn't want Adam to die. If It was God's plan, God's purpose, or as you say Adam would have died anyway, then why would God give him the command to not eat from the forbidden tree,, and say he would die if he did if as you say he would have died anyway if he didn't eat from the forbidden tree. If Adam was going to die anyway then what was the point of the command God gave Adam regarding the forbidden tree, and why would God say he would die if he did if God knew he was going to die anyway. That command makes no sense whatsoever if Adam was going to die anyway, as you say. I honestly don't think God gives any commands that serve no purpose. So what was the purpose of the command to not eat from the forbidden, if as you believe it's because God created Adam short of his glory so you believe God created Adam sinful or a sinner and was going to die anyway.

 

[jeremiah1five]

You and I are going to disagree because I honestly believe you're ignoring scripture, and want people to go by your interpretation of scripture instead. Not that you don't have a right to your interpretation, I just don't agree with it. The scriptures you give I disagree supports you're belief. I find nowhere in scripture that God planned, or that it was God's purpose for Adam to die.The fact that in scripture God said to Adam, to not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and Evil, is proof that God didn't want Adam to die. If It was God's plan, God's purpose, or as you say Adam would have died anyway, then why would God give him the command to not eat from the forbidden tree,, and say he would die if he did if as you say he would have died anyway if he didn't eat from the forbidden tree. If Adam was going to die anyway then what was the point of the command God gave Adam regarding the forbidden tree, and why would God say he would die if he did if God knew he was going to die anyway. That command makes no sense whatsoever if Adam was going to die anyway, as you say. I honestly don't think God gives any commands that serve no purpose. So what was the purpose of the command to not eat from the forbidden, if as you believe it's because God created Adam short of his glory so you believe God created Adam sinful or a sinner and was going to die anyway.

Question:

Does sin come from sinner?

Or

Does sin come from holy?

Which?

 

[BB1956]

Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Where is the word punished used in those scriptures?

Adam and Eve were created without sin and with the ability to live forever, but after their fall and all those preceding the flood with sin running rampant God said, my Spirit shall not abide in man forever for he is flesh, his days shall be a hundred and twenty years, Genesis 6:1-3. As sin increased the age of men became less because of all the sin that dwelled in them. What Adam has now, like all who are of faith in God that have physically died, will have eternal life when Christ returns and they are resurrected from their graves, John 5:28-29.

God proclaimed that the penalty of sin is spiritual death and separation from God, for the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23. It's not God that punishes or condemns anyone, but they who continue in their sin have already condemned themselves for they would rather walk in darkness instead of newness of the light.

First of all, why are you asking me where is the word "punished" in Exodus 34:6, 7 when the word in the scripture Exodus 34:6, 7 I quoted from my Bible is, "unpunished." The word unpunished is right there in post #113 of what I texted.
Second at Exodus 34:7 that you quoted, "

"Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."

Tell me what do you think it means when part of this scripture at Exodus 34:7 says, "and that will by no means clear the guilty." I honestly believe this means, that God will not pity nor spare impudent and impenitent transgressors, but will severely punish them." So just because the word "unpunished" isn't in that verse doesn't mean that's not what that scripture is talking about concerning God.

 

[Hopeful]

So you believe Adam was a non-sinner? Was he holy? Was he righteous and sinless? Because those are attributes of God and in order to be Perfect before God like His Son one has to possess ALL Deific attributes of God or that person falls short of the glory of God. The Bible calls that sinner.

Adam was holy, non-sinning, righteous, sinless man...until he sinned.