GOD OF THE OT / GOD OF THE NT.......IS IT THE SAME GOD?

[Alfred Persson]

Maybe it's time to close this thread down.
It might be me that is unable to keep it on track.

Please don't. Its popular. No thread should be artificially ended.

 

[kjw47]

Answer to the OP--- There is only one God--He always was and always will be.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Please don't. Its popular. No thread should be artificially ended.

Or please do, if OP insists to subtly accuse God of genocide, prefer appeasement, and change the 6th commandment from "you shall not MURDER" to you shall not kill.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Or please do, if OP insists to subtly accuse God of genocide, prefer appeasement, and change the 6th commandment from "you shall not MURDER" to you shall not kill.

Free speech is the best correction for wrong speech. Locking up the thread also ends the variety of refutations that endlessly repeating the wrong generates.

Its human to remain unconvinced...until a certain proof is stated differently, or comes to light.

Just because someone remains unconvinced, doesn't mean they are evil. If someone persists in error regardless of the proof, that will only prove to others how wrong they are....a good thing for the community.

Of course, those who are evil and are abusive should be banned. Not saying otherwise.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, I have never made that claim. All I have been saying is that he can only act from his nature, so that is where your answer is found.

So God's nature is to kill/murder the very creatures HE created?

The bible teaches that God loves His creations:

Matthew 10:28-30
28“Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29What is the price of two sparrows—one copper coink? But not a single sparrow can fall to the ground without your Father knowing it. 30And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. 31So don’t be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows.

Does this sound like:


1 Samuel 15:3
3‘Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”


Numbers 31:17-18
17“Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. 18“But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.


Now, we could discuss the why but what Craig was trying to explain is what theologians are currently discussing in trying to understand the OT and the culture of the day. After all, it was written 4,000 years ago.


Do the above verses seem to you to represent the same God?

Since God does not change,,,how could we come to undersand this difference?

If I'm understanding correctly, it seems to me that most members posting here feel/believe that God has the right to do whatever He wants to do.

This is a resolution for these members and it's to be respected.

What I'M saying is that I don't think I could trust a God that is one way in the OT and then another way in the NT.

We say that God cannot change.....well, it certainly seems to me that He HAS changed.

If I cannot TRUST that God is the same and that He will not change and that He will not turn on His population,,,for whatever the just reason might be... then I, personally, cannot trust that God.

I'm saying that for those that cannot accept that God can do whatever He wishes to do, even if it goes against his nature (the small amount of it that we can know) ---- for those members --- some other solution must be found.

I find that we need to reconcile some aspects of our "religion".

Evolution would be another example....
Some Christians believe in evolution.
OK
But how do you square that with GOD CREATED ALL THINGS....

I think this is an interesting subject but I don't want it to turn into any other discussion other than this.
A different thread could be started on the nature of God).

I have done all of that, in my first two long replies. I showed why he is consistent with his nature in both the OT and the NT. He is loving and just--two sides of the same coin--and that his justness flows from his holiness. All of those, particularly the latter, show why he cannot tolerate sin forever and why it must be judged and sinners punished. That is the answer to your dilemma in the OP and why he cannot act contradictory to his nature.

I also believe God is just. I always put Just in my list of the 3 qualities God MUST have in order to govern his creatures.

But YOU are applying his nature to sin...
I'M applying His nature/actions in the OT to His immutability.

It all comes down to this one fact: God will never act contradictory to his nature; he absolutely cannot. He will always act perfectly justly and lovingly because he is perfectly holy. So, if one thinks that God's actions contradicted his nature, then their understanding of his nature is incorrect or deficient at some point.

We're wandering off topic.
I just don't want to go there.

You do realize that probably almost every thought you have on anything theological (or anything else) has come to you, at some point, through the "writings [or teachings] of men," yes? It's how we primarily learn and it's primarily how God speaks to us. We can eventually come to believe that they were our own thoughts. In the very least, it is what others say that sparks us to think differently about something.

Actually Free, the above is not correct.
I never read anything before salvation and have read very little of man's thoughts since.
I like to read what God has to tell me....
if there's something I find unable to reconcile----you know who I go to.
The Apostolic Fathers. But they aren't JUST MEN....they learned from the Apostles themselves or the generation right after.

And I'll tell you why I don't like to read too much on THEOLOGY:
Every man has his own opinion.
I like devotional books more.

I've read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and I've read the Confessions of 1689 and Westminster and what do I learn? To say nothing of Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion.....that's fun reading.

Men's ideas.

I like to stick to the bible and let God speak to me.

Which aspect?


Murder, which is different.


As judgement for their sins, so it wasn't murder. God not only has the right to kill people in judgement for their sins, his nature dictates that he must. And, he can decide when and how, because he is God.

Not talking about sin here.

I've done that, in those two long posts. Of course, there is more that could be said, but I believe I gave enough to show how it is all reconciled.

It's reconciled to you and others that agree with you.

Apparently, not everyone agrees with your reconciling method because it's a big topic these days.

I DID say that I respect the fact that you've reconciled this within your own mind.
So have I actually....

But the thread is just about the fact that it MUST be reconciled.

Again, you are contradicting yourself. You say "We are NOT discussing God's nature here," just after having said "I'm saying God is going against ONE ASPECT of His nature." So, you are making it about God's nature, and intuitively know it's about his nature, but you don't want to discuss his nature and also say it isn't about his nature. Apart from being contradictory, it means you will never get the answer, or accept the answer, to your dilemma.

I can't explain any better. I know I'm doing a bad job of it.
I don't care to discuss God's nature in the thread....
Just the difference, as His actions.
An aspect of His nature naturally comes into play...but that 's not what this thread is about.

It honestly seems like you're not reading what I am writing. The nature of God and sin are at the very heart of your dilemma. The whole reason God commanded the killing of Canaanite tribes was in judgement of their sin. And, God commanded that because he is loving, just, and holy; he was being perfectly consistent with his nature.

I don't have a dilemma.
Just raising a question that is popular today and is a very interesting one BECAUSE God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Well, God didn't instruct man to taken an action he also prohibits. Also, God mainly acts through people. That is how he does most of his work. There is ultimately no difference if God does the action directly himself or indirectly through people. He could also have commanded them to kill so that they would get used to warfare, something they may not have had to deal with as Egyptian slaves, but something they would have to deal with to defend their territory and cities.

Uffa Free.
God WANTS MAN to get used to warfare?
I thought God hated war?

And how can you say that God didn't instruct man to take an action that God also prohibited?

THOU SHALT NOT MURDER
GO AND KILL ALL THE MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

(it's the children part that is greatly debated---why the children too? They could have been rehabilitated to become Jewish)


Why is it murder?
Because no one was in immediate danger.
I wouldn't have brought up the difference between kill and murder because it just complicates everything...
but however one wishes to understand it, it makes no difference in what God ordered.

Was it right that foreigners murdered the Indians to get their land?
Would God have preferred that they get along and live together?

See, this convo could get all out of control....
I'd like to stick to the very core of the topic.

 

[kjw47]

So God's nature is to kill/murder the very creatures HE created?

The bible teaches that God loves His creations:

Matthew 10:28-30
28“Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29What is the price of two sparrows—one copper coink? But not a single sparrow can fall to the ground without your Father knowing it. 30And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. 31So don’t be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows.

Does this sound like:


1 Samuel 15:3
3‘Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”


Numbers 31:17-18
17“Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. 18“But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.


Now, we could discuss the why but what Craig was trying to explain is what theologians are currently discussing in trying to understand the OT and the culture of the day. After all, it was written 4,000 years ago.


Do the above verses seem to you to represent the same God?

Since God does not change,,,how could we come to undersand this difference?

If I'm understanding correctly, it seems to me that most members posting here feel/believe that God has the right to do whatever He wants to do.

This is a resolution for these members and it's to be respected.

What I'M saying is that I don't think I could trust a God that is one way in the OT and then another way in the NT.

We say that God cannot change.....well, it certainly seems to me that He HAS changed.

If I cannot TRUST that God is the same and that He will not change and that He will not turn on His population,,,for whatever the just reason might be... then I, personally, cannot trust that God.

I'm saying that for those that cannot accept that God can do whatever He wishes to do, even if it goes against his nature (the small amount of it that we can know) ---- for those members --- some other solution must be found.

I find that we need to reconcile some aspects of our "religion".

Evolution would be another example....
Some Christians believe in evolution.
OK
But how do you square that with GOD CREATED ALL THINGS....

I think this is an interesting subject but I don't want it to turn into any other discussion other than this.
A different thread could be started on the nature of God).



I also believe God is just. I always put Just in my list of the 3 qualities God MUST have in order to govern his creatures.

But YOU are applying his nature to sin...
I'M applying His nature/actions in the OT to His immutability.



We're wandering off topic.
I just don't want to go there.



Actually Free, the above is not correct.
I never read anything before salvation and have read very little of man's thoughts since.
I like to read what God has to tell me....
if there's something I find unable to reconcile----you know who I go to.
The Apostolic Fathers. But they aren't JUST MEN....they learned from the Apostles themselves or the generation right after.

And I'll tell you why I don't like to read too much on THEOLOGY:
Every man has his own opinion.
I like devotional books more.

I've read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and I've read the Confessions of 1689 and Westminster and what do I learn? To say nothing of Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion.....that's fun reading.

Men's ideas.

I like to stick to the bible and let God speak to me.


Not talking about sin here.



It's reconciled to you and others that agree with you.

Apparently, not everyone agrees with your reconciling method because it's a big topic these days.

I DID say that I respect the fact that you've reconciled this within your own mind.
So have I actually....

But the thread is just about the fact that it MUST be reconciled.




I can't explain any better. I know I'm doing a bad job of it.
I don't care to discuss God's nature in the thread....
Just the difference, as His actions.
An aspect of His nature naturally comes into play...but that 's not what this thread is about.



I don't have a dilemma.
Just raising a question that is popular today and is a very interesting one BECAUSE God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.


Uffa Free.
God WANTS MAN to get used to warfare?
I thought God hated war?

And how can you say that God didn't instruct man to take an action that God also prohibited?

THOU SHALT NOT MURDER
GO AND KILL ALL THE MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

(it's the children part that is greatly debated---why the children too? They could have been rehabilitated to become Jewish)


Why is it murder?
Because no one was in immediate danger.
I wouldn't have brought up the difference between kill and murder because it just complicates everything...
but however one wishes to understand it, it makes no difference in what God ordered.

Was it right that foreigners murdered the Indians to get their land?
Would God have preferred that they get along and live together?

See, this convo could get all out of control....
I'd like to stick to the very core of the topic.

If his purpose is threatened or his people, he acts. This isn't the real life, they will be resurrected and given a chance under perfect conditions in a perfect state of being. That is LOVE. He sacrificed his son on behalf of all humans even the wicked--that is LOVE. They all have a chance to repent and obey.

 

[GodsGrace]

"He was GOD" was not an answer because he chose to become a man, and he led by example. More is caught than taught, more is shown than known. I don't care to discuss the turning of the other cheek, I care to discuss the LACK thereof when the Lord was struck in one cheek.

He was God is the PERFECT answer as to why Jesus didn't have to turn the other cheek.
This tells me you don't really know what it means.
Not a topic for here.

Yes, please. I've already answered your question in the OP, take it or not it's up to you.

LOL
And YOUR opinion is the only one that counts here on this thead?
It's take it or leave it.
YOUR reply or nothing at all.
Funny Carry.

 

[GodsGrace]

Please don't. Its popular. No thread should be artificially ended.

Yeah.
But I stand accused of the things I said....!
(U2 When Love Comes to Town)

This thread states nowhere what I think of it all....
I was just OPing a debate with Wm. Lane Craig that I found very interesting.

We absolutely MUST reconcile the OT in our own minds....
I'm just asking what that reconciliation could be.

So far, the majority believe God could do whatever He wants to do.
Well, theologians are not agreeing too much because this is the hot topic of the day.

Just wish I had more time to post...

 

[GodsGrace]

If his purpose is threatened or his people, he acts. This isn't the real life, they will be resurrected and given a chance under perfect conditions in a perfect state of being. That is LOVE. He sacrificed his son on behalf of all humans even the wicked--that is LOVE. They all have a chance to repent and obey.

So God kills people when His purpose is threatened?
And I should worship this God you describe?

Because....
Anyway, they're going to be resurrected?

Funny, Wm. Craig stated that it was OK for God to order the murder of children because they were going to a better place.

Most Christian at the top of the rung are pretty horrified at this...
and, a you might or might not know, we Christians just love Wm. Craig.

 

[Grailhunter]

This as a point of fact

This thread is dealing with the issue that the Ecumenical Councils dealt with and found it irresolvable. The apparent differences between the Old Testament God and the New Testament God, Yahweh and Yeshua. There were other issues like hierarchy but it all boiled down to the differences. Differences in the Mosaic Law and Christ teachings and what Yahweh did and what Yeshua did.

The Gnostics disowned Yahweh and the Old Testament and at that time were gaining in popularity….So there was an urgency to unite and standardize Christianity.

Emperor Constantine commanded them to come to an agreement on this issue. The whole one faith thing that was the theme of the Catholic Church. But they could not come to an agreement. So the Catholic Church issued a mandatory belief. The one God formula for the Trinity was born. . If they were the same person they could not be different. But it did not settle the disagreements it just put a lid on it and it contradicted and skewed the meaning of hundreds of scriptures.

Are the apparent differences between Yahweh and Yeshua resolvable? There is an explanation but it is not biblical and most Christians would not like it.

But staying with the scriptures….
Loving and good hearted Christians would be horrified to watch a woman executed for being raped or tens of thousands of women killed because they were not virgins. No surprise. With the information given us, even studying this topic can hurt their faith.

The only thing I can offer to those that are wrestling with this topic and maybe hurting from it is pointing out the differences in the reality of then and now.

If we were to go back to even Christ’s time it would seem like a miserable alien world. Cities stunk horribly, people crying and screaming for different reasons day and night, sickness, disease, child birthing, hunger….Harsh and violent rulers, when you entered cities you would likely pass naked people nailed to crosses or scaffolding as a warning to obey Roman Laws. When you traveled you were likely to find dead bodies along the road, dead from different causes which included criminals. Famine and plagues.

When you move back into the Old Testament it just gets worse. The cities were about the same but on top of that warring kingdoms and large armies moving feeding off the populace and rape pillage and blunder. It was a very harsh and deadly environment. Basically a reality of horror. And in the middle of all this was the Israelite / Jewish people and Yahweh trying to stabilize them and teach morality to a primitive people. A stubborn people that did not place a value on life as we understand it and mainly only obeyed due to fear. There was no reasoning with these primitive people. So as we can see in the 613 Mosaic Laws….obey or you will be punished. Animal sacrifices…. Surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man’s brother I will require the life of man. Genesis 9:5 So Yahweh was harsh…. for their own good. Does this explain everything or make sense? From our perspective we cannot help but see the ugliness in it. A harsh time period and a harsh people and a God that had to be harsh to try to keep them in line. No matter how well it is described there no way we can understand it. Yahweh’s awareness is well beyond ours and we have to trust that what He did was the only way. In Heaven we may understand better but until then do not judge God.

 

[kjw47]

So God kills people when His purpose is threatened?
And I should worship this God you describe?

Because....
Anyway, they're going to be resurrected?

Funny, Wm. Craig stated that it was OK for God to order the murder of children because they were going to a better place.

Most Christian at the top of the rung are pretty horrified at this...
and, a you might or might not know, we Christians just love Wm. Craig.

God is the only one handing out life everlasting. On a paradise earth, never sick, never without. peace always. Loved ones resurrected and given a second chance.
Not all is as appears in a satan ruled world. He and his teachers( 2 Cor 11:12-15) transform into angels of light and mislead.
Jesus started 1 single religion, he is only with 1 single Christian religion, the rest are false.

 

[GodsGrace]

This as a point of fact

This thread is dealing with the issue that the Ecumenical Councils dealt with and found it irresolvable. The apparent differences between the Old Testament God and the New Testament God, Yahweh and Yeshua. There were other issues like hierarchy but it all boiled down to the differences. Differences in the Mosaic Law and Christ teachings and what Yahweh did and what Yeshua did.

The Gnostics disowned Yahweh and the Old Testament and at that time were gaining in popularity….So there was an urgency to unite and standardize Christianity.

Emperor Constantine commanded them to come to an agreement on this issue. The whole one faith thing that was the theme of the Catholic Church. But they could not come to an agreement. So the Catholic Church issued a mandatory belief. The one God formula for the Trinity was born. . If they were the same person they could not be different. But it did not settle the disagreements it just put a lid on it and it contradicted and skewed the meaning of hundreds of scriptures.

Are the apparent differences between Yahweh and Yeshua resolvable? There is an explanation but it is not biblical and most Christians would not like it.

But staying with the scriptures….
Loving and good hearted Christians would be horrified to watch a woman executed for being raped or tens of thousands of women killed because they were not virgins. No surprise. With the information given us, even studying this topic can hurt their faith.

The only thing I can offer to those that are wrestling with this topic and maybe hurting from it is pointing out the differences in the reality of then and now.

If we were to go back to even Christ’s time it would seem like a miserable alien world. Cities stunk horribly, people crying and screaming for different reasons day and night, sickness, disease, child birthing, hunger….Harsh and violent rulers, when you entered cities you would likely pass naked people nailed to crosses or scaffolding as a warning to obey Roman Laws. When you traveled you were likely to find dead bodies along the road, dead from different causes which included criminals. Famine and plagues.

When you move back into the Old Testament it just gets worse. The cities were about the same but on top of that warring kingdoms and large armies moving feeding off the populace and rape pillage and blunder. It was a very harsh and deadly environment. Basically a reality of horror. And in the middle of all this was the Israelite / Jewish people and Yahweh trying to stabilize them and teach morality to a primitive people. A stubborn people that did not place a value on life as we understand it and mainly only obeyed due to fear. There was no reasoning with these primitive people. So as we can see in the 613 Mosaic Laws….obey or you will be punished. Animal sacrifices…. Surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man’s brother I will require the life of man. Genesis 9:5 So Yahweh was harsh…. for their own good. Does this explain everything or make sense? From our perspective we cannot help but see the ugliness in it. A harsh time period and a harsh people and a God that had to be harsh to try to keep them in line. No matter how well it is described there no way we can understand it. Yahweh’s awareness is well beyond ours and we have to trust that what He did was the only way. In Heaven we may understand better but until then do not judge God.

I was right there with you GH,,,,,
Hope reigned supreme.
Someone understands the thread!
Someone, maybe, does not agree with the 4th person of the Trinity,,,,,,,,Wm. Lane Craig.
That Craig is amassing many critics...
Can it be?

But then that last line.


Oh no.
Is this about judging God?

ONLY if He actually did the commanding.....
Did He?

 

[Free]

So God's nature is to kill/murder the very creatures HE created?

The bible teaches that God loves His creations:

Matthew 10:28-30
28“Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29What is the price of two sparrows—one copper coink? But not a single sparrow can fall to the ground without your Father knowing it. 30And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. 31So don’t be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows.

Does this sound like:


1 Samuel 15:3
3‘Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”


Numbers 31:17-18
17“Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. 18“But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.

Yes, it does. It seems there is, as I pointed out, a basic misunderstanding of what God's love entails. If God is loving, should he let infant sacrifice to continue? If he is loving should he let bestiality, orgy offerings, incest of all manner, homosexual practice, etc., go unpunished so that it continues to corrupt the innocent, including those people he has chosen as a people unto himself? Do they not have a right to be free from living amongst that filth? Not that the Israelites were innocent, but God wanted them to be a holy people.

That is why I said that love and justice are two sides of the same coin. God's love means he must necessarily provide justice for the innocent and pure, which means punishment for the wicked.

Now, we could discuss the why but what Craig was trying to explain is what theologians are currently discussing in trying to understand the OT and the culture of the day. After all, it was written 4,000 years ago.


Do the above verses seem to you to represent the same God?

Since God does not change,,,how could we come to undersand this difference?

If I'm understanding correctly, it seems to me that most members posting here feel/believe that God has the right to do whatever He wants to do.

This is a resolution for these members and it's to be respected.

On the one hand, yes, God does have a right to do what he wants; he is the Creator and we were created for him. On the other hand, God will never do something that goes against his nature; that's an impossibility.

What I'M saying is that I don't think I could trust a God that is one way in the OT and then another way in the NT.


We say that God cannot change.....well, it certainly seems to me that He HAS changed.

If I cannot TRUST that God is the same and that He will not change and that He will not turn on His population,,,for whatever the just reason might be... then I, personally, cannot trust that God.

I'm saying that for those that cannot accept that God can do whatever He wishes to do, even if it goes against his nature (the small amount of it that we can know) ---- for those members --- some other solution must be found.

I find that we need to reconcile some aspects of our "religion".

I couldn't trust a God like that either. What you said here is key: "We say that God cannot change.....well, it certainly seems to me that He HAS changed."

We say God cannot change because he cannot and does not change. If it seems that he has changed, then there is something wrong with our perception.

Evolution would be another example....
Some Christians believe in evolution.
OK
But how do you square that with GOD CREATED ALL THINGS....

Because, philosophically speaking, to pit evolution against God creating is a category error. Technically, evolution is a mechanism and intelligent agents, such as God, use mechanisms to accomplish something. Evolution could have been the mechanism by which God created. Much like an exceedingly complex computer program (mechanism) by a Master Computer Programmer (intelligent agent), with all the initial conditions set (variables and information). As the program runs, things unfold, at whatever pace the Programmer specified. Sometimes the program may ask for additional inputs (Cambrian Explosion). Etc.

But, that most certainly is another topic.

I think this is an interesting subject but I don't want it to turn into any other discussion other than this.
A different thread could be started on the nature of God).

But, this topic will never make sense if we don't understand God's nature

I also believe God is just. I always put Just in my list of the 3 qualities God MUST have in order to govern his creatures.

But YOU are applying his nature to sin...
I'M applying His nature/actions in the OT to His immutability.

You've put the cart before the horse. You're trying to argue from his actions to his nature and then conclude that he is not consistent. That misses sin as the whole reason for his actions (again, Gen 15:13-16). But, it is precisely because of his nature that we see him punishing sin in the OT by commanding the killing of various Canaanite groups. So, this shows God's immutability since sin is punished at various points in the NT, and then finally at the end of the ages.

Yes, we see more of God's grace in the NT, especially through finally providing the means of salvation and redemption, but he was also gracious in the OT. We see God's punishment of sin more overtly in the OT, but it very much is in the NT. And, as I stated, God's orders to kill the Canaanites were limited to the Israelites, for specific reasons, in a limited time frame. We must always begin with who God is, what we know of his nature, and then we try and understand his words and his actions.

God does not change from the OT to the NT.

We're wandering off topic.
I just don't want to go there.

This: It all comes down to this one fact: God will never act contradictory to his nature; he absolutely cannot. He will always act perfectly justly and lovingly because he is perfectly holy. So, if one thinks that God's actions contradicted his nature, then their understanding of his nature is incorrect or deficient at some point.

Is precisely at the core of the topic.

 

[Free]

Actually Free, the above is not correct.
I never read anything before salvation and have read very little of man's thoughts since.
I like to read what God has to tell me....
if there's something I find unable to reconcile----you know who I go to.
The Apostolic Fathers. But they aren't JUST MEN....they learned from the Apostles themselves or the generation right after.

You've never heard a sermon? Is there a difference between hearing a sermon and reading a book? Were the Apostolic Fathers correct in everything? How do you know? When were their errors corrected and who correct them? How do you know the corrections are correct?

And I'll tell you why I don't like to read too much on THEOLOGY:
Every man has his own opinion.
I like devotional books more.

I've read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and I've read the Confessions of 1689 and Westminster and what do I learn? To say nothing of Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion.....that's fun reading.

Men's ideas.

Who are you to judge that they are (merely) "Men's ideas"? How do you know that the Holy Spirit didn't guide them into the truth of what they say? Are you the only one able to "hear the Holy Spirit," the only one to whom God gives true understanding of Scripture? (Just rhetorical to get you thinking; not meant to be harsh.)

I like to stick to the bible and let God speak to me.

Well, that could be a part of the problem. As I stated previously, we are never to "do theology," that is, try and understand God and his revelation to us, by ourselves. This actually sets oneself up as the chief theologian and Bible scholar in all Christian history. Not a great place to be. Christians are called to loving community, that is at the core of what we are called to. And that absolutely includes "doing theology."

Besides, as was pointed out in another thread, without the voices of all theologians and scholars past and present, we are significantly more likely to fall into error, as the whole "the Holy Spirit is all I need" idea is highly subjective. How does one know if the Holy Spirit is actually speaking to them? There was one point on these forums many years ago when several members were saying that only the Holy Spirit led them to understand the Bible, and they all eschewed "the writings of men." Yet, they all disagreed with each other on various things, each convinced they were right because "the Holy Spirit told them."

It doesn't mean the Holy Spirit will not illuminate something as we read, but we must listen to God when he says he gifts certain believers with the ability to teach, and therefore understand that his primary way of communicating to us by his Spirit, is through others, not independent of others. This is all the more important today, being 2000 years out, reading English translations of writings written in languages that haven't been around for quite some time. All the more reason we need to consult commentaries and lexicons.

Not talking about sin here.

But, we will never find the answer if we don't discuss sin

I can't explain any better. I know I'm doing a bad job of it.
I don't care to discuss God's nature in the thread....
Just the difference, as His actions.
An aspect of His nature naturally comes into play...but that 's not what this thread is about.

But, again, his nature is at the very center of it all. It alone shows exactly why there is no difference between God in the OT and in the NT.

Uffa Free.
God WANTS MAN to get used to warfare?
I thought God hated war?

He hates all sin, but the world is fallen and we are the cause of it.

And how can you say that God didn't instruct man to take an action that God also prohibited?

THOU SHALT NOT MURDER
GO AND KILL ALL THE MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

Because, God didn't and absolutely cannot murder nor command murder. Because God is perfectly holy, he is perfectly just and justified in punishing sin through death, even if it means women and children.

(it's the children part that is greatly debated---why the children too? They could have been rehabilitated to become Jewish)

Possibly. But, what about genetics? Those do predispose people to certain things. However, it is also possible that, as with the Israelites, God often deals with people groups as a whole. The whole American and Western idea of super-individualism must largely be left at the door when it comes to Scripture (and living the Christian life).

Exo 34:6 The LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness,
Exo 34:7 keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.” (ESV)

Why is it murder?
Because no one was in immediate danger.

But, this is a misunderstanding of the utter sinfulness of sin. (I think that is probably the biggest problem in the Church, at least in the West.) The innocent, including Canaanite children and all the Israelites, were in immediate danger. Murder is killing without justification. God is always justified in punishing sin, even by death.

I wouldn't have brought up the difference between kill and murder because it just complicates everything...
but however one wishes to understand it, it makes no difference in what God ordered.

It makes all the difference. If God murdered, it means he killed without justification, and then I would absolutely agree that something is wrong. But, he didn't, because God is perfectly holy, which means everything he does is always perfectly just.

Was it right that foreigners murdered the Indians to get their land?

Absolutely not.

Would God have preferred that they get along and live together?

Absolutely.

See, this convo could get all out of control....
I'd like to stick to the very core of the topic.

Sin and God's judgement, based on his nature, are the very core of this topic. That has been my point from the start. Sin is abhorrent to God, so much so that he says the wages of sin is death. So, it must be judged and punished if he is Holy, Just, and Loving, and it all will be.

The horrific wickedness in Noah's day resulted in a flood killed almost everyone. The horrific wickedness of the Canaanites resulted in God's command to wipe them out, lest the Israelites join in their sin (which they ended up doing and also ended up paying dearly for). At the end of all things, everyone who didn't accept Christ's sacrifice and put their faith in him will face the worst punishment of all. The OT is tame compared to the lake of fire.

 

[Grailhunter]

I was right there with you GH,,,,,
Hope reigned supreme.
Someone understands the thread!
Someone, maybe, does not agree with the 4th person of the Trinity,,,,,,,,Wm. Lane Craig.
That Craig is amassing many critics...
Can it be?

But then that last line.


Oh no.
Is this about judging God?

ONLY if He actually did the commanding.....
Did He?

Well Yeshua said not one bit of the Mosaic Law would change.
But then either changed it or disagreed with it.

The Law of divorce…. Moses permitted you….to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard…..But it was not this way from the beginning….Another set of Laws?

This pretty much sets the Mosaic Law on its ear.

Then you have the Mosaic Law saying…. Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

And Christ saying….. You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

What are we to do with this? If we consider the Laws of the Old Testament a work of fiction….Is this the answer? Where does it end?

Now as I said the Gnostics threw the Old Testament and Yahweh away making Yeshua the Creator God and God Almighty. And we see some of this in John’s writings. But is that the answer?

As I see it Judaism is not a Christian religion. Except for information it does not offer anything to Christianity, not for guidance and not for spirit.

In the end Yahweh gave His own Son to save us and that is what matters. Gave His own Son and that is a sacrifice in itself.

Love God and love one another.
Be good and do good.
The Johnny Appleseed of Truth

 

[GodsGrace]

Well Yeshua said not one bit of the Mosaic Law would change.
But then either changed it or disagreed with it.

The Law of divorce…. Moses permitted you….to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard…..But it was not this way from the beginning….Another set of Laws?

This pretty much sets the Mosaic Law on its ear.

Then you have the Mosaic Law saying…. Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

And Christ saying….. You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

What are we to do with this? If we consider the Laws of the Old Testament a work of fiction….Is this the answer? Where does it end?

Now as I said the Gnostics threw the Old Testament and Yahweh away making Yeshua the Creator God and God Almighty. And we see some of this in John’s writings. But is that the answer?

As I see it Judaism is not a Christian religion. Except for information it does not offer anything to Christianity, not for guidance and not for spirit.

In the end Yahweh gave His own Son to save us and that is what matters. Gave His own Son and that is a sacrifice in itself.

Love God and love one another.
Be good and do good.
The Johnny Appleseed of Truth

OK
Now we could discuss....
But in the,morning.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

He was God is the PERFECT answer as to why Jesus didn't have to turn the other cheek.
This tells me you don't really know what it means.
Not a topic for here.

Then why did he teach so? And why do we have to take it seriously? Haven’t you forgotten that Jesus despised those hypocrites the most? Surely God is a faithful God of his own words, right?

LOL
And YOUR opinion is the only one that counts here on this thead?
It's take it or leave it.
YOUR reply or nothing at all.
Funny Carry.

What really deserves a LOL is doubting whether God is the same in the OT and the NT in the first place. If God is love, then God must hate evil, for evil is destroying everything and everyone we hold dear, and those Canaanites were the embodiments of evil, they were cursed among all nations in Gen. 9.

 

[GodsGrace]

Carry_Your_Name

Carry
Apparently you're in the wrong forum.
My suggestion is that you rethink your position as to the OP.

If you don't understand it, perhaps you could ask for clarification instead of using an overactive imagination regarding the OP of this thread.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Carry_Your_Name

Carry
Apparently you're in the wrong forum.
My suggestion is that you rethink your position as to the OP.

If you don't understand it, perhaps you could ask for clarification instead of using an overactive imagination regarding the OP of this thread.

Okay, looks like "free speech" is not free after all. What I understand perfectly is the tone of this title, which sounds an awful lot like the serpent in Gen. 3:1 - "Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?" That much I can assure you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay, looks like "free speech" is not free after all. What I understand perfectly is the tone of this title, which sounds an awful lot like the serpent in Gen. 3:1 - "Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?" That much I can assure you.

You're not free to degrade and misrepresent members of this site. Please state what you believe but being respectful to others. There are TOS rules to follow on this site.
Use Talk with Staff if you don't understand.