GOD OF THE OT / GOD OF THE NT.......IS IT THE SAME GOD?

[Alfred Persson]

Well, if you think I'm judging God, then you've missed the point of the OP.

Good. I apologize for taking it the wrong way.

 

[GodsGrace]

An eye must be paid for an eye, a tooth must be paid for a tooth, that was God's law which could be dated back to Gen. 9.

Where does Genesis speak of the idea of an eye for an eye?
Please provide the verse.

The purpose was not vengeance, punishment or even deterrence of crime, but to contain the extent of retribution. Without an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, vigilante justice will fill in, the victim's friends, families and other stakeholders will go after the perp for blood, the vicious cycle goes on and may get out of control, and the retribution would far exceed the damage caused by the initial offense. Think about the deadly feud between the Montagues and the Capulets in Romeo and Juliet, it started with a small squabble in the market, at the end the kids, future heirs of both families perished. Another example in real history, the Great War in the 1910s was triggered by an assassination of an Austrian prince. Major power players in Europe failed to contain it, they took sides and let it escalate, and it quickly snowballed into a full blown world war that took away millions of lives and completely shattered the old imperial order. Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to destroy it.

In Matthew 5:18.....Jesus says to not repay evil with evil. In fact He says to turn the other cheek.
This is figurative of course, but the context is that we're to honor God and not other men...,
thus an eye for an eye was not supported by Jesus.

God would carry out His own justice - man was not to do so.

What Jesus taught though is to not hold a grudge against your neighbor for their offense, in other words, don't bring this law into a personal conflict just to even the score, deal with it in a mature and civilized manner. If they have done you wrong and broken the law, your option is to call the police or other authorities, gather evidence and witnesses, press charges against them, yield it to the judge and settle it in court, for vengeance is God's, and these authorities are God's ministers to carry out his vengeance. In principle, you treat the offense as business matter, but in your heart you forgive your offender and let it go,

I can agree with this.

A good biblical example is Esau and Jacob in Gen. 33. Esau hated Jacob for cheating his father and stealing his birthright, even though he sold it for a bowl of soup. Jacob was afraid that Esau would kill him, the fled from his family to uncle Laban. Many years later he left Laban with his clan, and he spotted Esau, he was still afraid that Esau was coming after him, he even divided his entourage so Esau's men wouldn't be able to catch them all, but Esau met with him peacefully, even joyfully, and they reconciled.

OK. This is beyond the scope of the OP and I wont reply to it.

 

[GodsGrace]

But, what else is God's nature, that is very important? Holiness. His justice flows from his holiness, which means we will not be able to understand his justice until we understand just how utterly sinful sin actually is, how much of a cancer it is and spreads if it isn't cut out and eradicated.

Free, the thread is not about God's nature...I do believe I had a thread on that some time ago.
This thread is about reconciling the God of the OT with the God of the NT.
To some it sounds like 2 different Gods and some theologians are discussing how this could possibly be reconciled.
In the OP I stated that Wm Craig had some comments that were not appreciated by many.

We must consider that all mankind are “by nature children of wrath” (Eph 2:3), because God is holy. Such people are already condemned (John 3:28) and we know that in the end, many will perish. We must also understand that the Lord “is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance” (2 Pet 3:9).

We see echoes of that in the OT as well:

Psa 86:5 For you, O Lord, are good and forgiving, abounding in steadfast love to all who call upon you.
...
Psa 86:15 But you, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. (ESV)

Joe 2:13 and rend your hearts and not your garments.” Return to the LORD your God, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love; and he relents over disaster. (ESV)

OK
So going by your above quotes....how does this God's nature that you speak of as being holy, patient, good, forgiving, abounding in steadfast love reconcile with God commanding the Hebrews to kill every man, woman and child and to take the young girls captive.

Numbers 31:18
14But Moses was furious with the officers of the army, the commanders over thousands and commanders over hundreds, who had come from service in the war. 15Moses said to them, “Have you allowed all the women to live? 16Look, these people through the counsel of Balaam caused the Israelites to act treacherously against the Lord in the matter of Peor – which resulted in the plague among the community of the Lord! 17Now therefore kill every boy, and kill every woman who has had sexual intercourse with a man. 18But all the young women who have not had sexual intercourse with a man will be yours.

And consider Ninevah.

What else do we see in the OT? We see God dealing with the utter sinfulness of humans:

Deu 9:4 “Do not say in your heart, after the LORD your God has thrust them out before you, ‘It is because of my righteousness that the LORD has brought me in to possess this land,’ whereas it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out before you.
Deu 9:5 Not because of your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart are you going in to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations the LORD your God is driving them out from before you, and that he may confirm the word that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
Deu 9:6 “Know, therefore, that the LORD your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stubborn people. (ESV)

Deu 20:16 But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes,
Deu 20:17 but you shall devote them to complete destruction, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the LORD your God has commanded,
Deu 20:18 that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices that they have done for their gods, and so you sin against the LORD your God. (ESV)

So God DOES have the right to command murder, even though one of His commandments says not to...
and even though, it would seem, goes against His nature as you've described above.?

And what of Numbers 31, then? We look at Numbers 22-25 for the context and see the attempt at the moral and spiritual destruction of the Israelites, particularly chapter 25 with the Israelites being lead into idol worship and sexual impurity.

Gen 15:13 Then the LORD said to Abram, “Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for four hundred years.
Gen 15:14 But I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions.
Gen 15:15 As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age.
Gen 15:16 And they shall come back here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.” (ESV)

Lev 18:1 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Lev 18:2 “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, I am the LORD your God.
Lev 18:3 You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you lived, and you shall not do as they do in the land of Canaan, to which I am bringing you. You shall not walk in their statutes.
Lev 18:4 You shall follow my rules and keep my statutes and walk in them. I am the LORD your God.
Lev 18:5 You shall therefore keep my statutes and my rules; if a person does them, he shall live by them: I am the LORD.
Lev 18:6 “None of you shall approach any one of his close relatives to uncover nakedness. I am the LORD.
Lev 18:7 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, which is the nakedness of your mother; she is your mother, you shall not uncover her nakedness.
Lev 18:8 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's wife; it is your father's nakedness.
Lev 18:9 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your sister, your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether brought up in the family or in another home.
Lev 18:10 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your son's daughter or of your daughter's daughter, for their nakedness is your own nakedness.
Lev 18:11 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's wife's daughter, brought up in your father's family, since she is your sister.
Lev 18:12 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's sister; she is your father's relative.
Lev 18:13 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother's sister, for she is your mother's relative.
Lev 18:14 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's brother, that is, you shall not approach his wife; she is your aunt.
Lev 18:15 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your daughter-in-law; she is your son's wife, you shall not uncover her nakedness.
Lev 18:16 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your brother's wife; it is your brother's nakedness.
Lev 18:17 You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and of her daughter, and you shall not take her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter to uncover her nakedness; they are relatives; it is depravity.
Lev 18:18 And you shall not take a woman as a rival wife to her sister, uncovering her nakedness while her sister is still alive.
Lev 18:19 “You shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness while she is in her menstrual uncleanness.
Lev 18:20 And you shall not lie sexually with your neighbor's wife and so make yourself unclean with her.
Lev 18:21 You shall not give any of your children to offer them to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.
Lev 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.
Lev 18:23 And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion.
Lev 18:24 “Do not make yourselves unclean by any of these things, for by all these the nations I am driving out before you have become unclean,
Lev 18:25 and the land became unclean, so that I punished its iniquity, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. (ESV)

That is quite the list of moral and spiritual depravity, hence the need for judgement.

Pro 29:1 He who is often reproved, yet stiffens his neck, will suddenly be broken beyond healing. (ESV)

Just as we see that in the time of Noah, God gave those people 120 years of Noah's preaching, God gave the Amorites 400 years. Due to the incredible wickedness of those people, God wanted their sinful practices completely removed so that the Israelites wouldn't follow those practices. But, what happened? Israel ended up following those practices and they also faced judgement for doing so.

I'm afraid the above has nothing to do with the OP.
You're offering reasons as to WHY God betrayed His sown nature and killed.

It is not explaining if God broke His nature by doing so.

IF He did, I don't know how this God could ever be trusted.

 

[kjw47]

Where does Genesis speak of the idea of an eye for an eye?
Please provide the verse.



In Matthew 5:18.....Jesus says to not repay evil with evil. In fact He says to turn the other cheek.
This is figurative of course, but the context is that we're to honor God and not other men...,
thus an eye for an eye was not supported by Jesus.

God would carry out His own justice - man was not to do so.



I can agree with this.


OK. This is beyond the scope of the OP and I wont reply to it.

An eye for an eye did not mean take your brothers eye if he took yours. It meant--justice will prevail even if God had to hand out an equal justice for ones unjust act.

 

[GodsGrace]

"What guidelines do we have to determine when a culture is irredeemable, beyond the point of no moral and spiritual return? Don’t we need something more than mere mortals to assess a culture’s ripeness for judgment? Aren’t these considerations too weighty for humans to judge? Yes, they are! Any such determinations should be left up to God—namely, through special revelation. The Israelites, when they went into battle against the Philistines with the ark of the covenant but without divine approval, were roundly defeated (1 Sam. 4). The requirement of special revelation before any such undertaking is precisely what we have in Scripture. The one true God told his prophet Moses or Samuel when the time was right. Likewise, without such clear divine guidance, Israel wouldn’t have been justified in attacking the Canaanite strongholds."

Copan, Paul. Is God a Moral Monster?: Making Sense of the Old Testament God (p. 161). Baker Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Once again, the OP is not being addressed.
The REASON why God had everyone killed is not the topic here....
But the fact that it SEEMS as though God commanded everyone to be killed and thus commanding men to do what HE in one of HIS commandments forbad man to do.
Kill.

Did he correct it or bring the point of it to light? The Law focused on outward actions but Jesus points out that sin is actually a heart issue:

Mat 15:18 "But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.
Mat 15:20 These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.” (ESV)

Hence:

Mat 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’
Mat 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
...
Mat 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (ESV)


And some more:

"Yale theologian Miroslav Volf was born in Croatia and lived through the nightmare years of ethnic strife in the former Yugoslavia that included the destruction of churches, the raping of women, and the murdering of innocents. He once thought that wrath and anger were beneath God, but he came to realize that his view of God had been too low. Here Volf puts the New Atheists’ complaints about divine wrath into proper perspective:

I used to think that wrath was unworthy of God. Isn’t God love? Shouldn’t divine love be beyond wrath? God is love, and God loves every person and every creature. That’s exactly why God is wrathful against some of them. My last resistance to the idea of God’s wrath was a casualty of the war in the former Yugoslavia, the region from which I come. According to some estimates, 200,000 people were killed and over 3,000,000 were displaced. My villages and cities were destroyed, my people shelled day in and day out, some of them brutalized beyond imagination, and I could not imagine God not being angry. Or think of Rwanda in the last decade of the past century, where 800,000 people were hacked to death in one hundred days! How did God react to the carnage? By doting on the perpetrators in a grandfatherly fashion? By refusing to condemn the bloodbath but instead affirming the perpetrators’ basic goodness? Wasn’t God fiercely angry with them? Though I used to complain about the indecency of the idea of God’s wrath, I came to think that I would have to rebel against a God who wasn’t wrathful at the sight of the world’s evil. God isn’t wrathful in spite of being love. God is wrathful because God is love."

This is a man's opinion.
Honestly, I don't really care what he thinks.
I could post back someone that writes something different - what would that get us?

Copan, Paul. Is God a Moral Monster?: Making Sense of the Old Testament God (p. 192). Baker Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

"In one of his earlier and most important writings, written in German under the title Rechtfertigen and translated to English under the title Justification, Dr. Küng deals with this very question of the seeming injustice of God’s wrath that we find in Scripture, particularly in the Old Testament. He makes the point that the real mystery of iniquity, the real puzzle is not that a holy and righteous God should exercise justice. What is mysterious about a holy creator punishing willfully disobedient creatures? The real mystery is why God, through generation after generation, tolerates rebellious creatures who commit cosmic treason against His authority."

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/holiness-of-god/holiness-and-justice

There is no difference between God in the OT and God in the NT. All mankind faces his wrath for their continual sin and failure to acknowledge him as God even though they know better (Rom 1:18-21). At all times God has been more than patient, certainly significantly more than humans deserve.

We're not discussing God exercising justice.
We're discussing how God could command man to do something that is AGAINST the 10 Commandments....which are written in stone.

 

[kjw47]

Once again, the OP is not being addressed.
The REASON why God had everyone killed is not the topic here....
But the fact that it SEEMS as though God commanded everyone to be killed and thus commanding men to do what HE in one of HIS commandments forbad man to do.
Kill.



This is a man's opinion.
Honestly, I don't really care what he thinks.
I could post back someone that writes something different - what would that get us?


We're not discussing God exercising justice.
We're discussing how God could command man to do something that is AGAINST the 10 Commandments....which are written in stone.

God is creator, he owns every iota of creation. He has 100% right to say what is allowed and what isn't allowed. If one opposes God they deserve death. God handed them life for free of charge. What value would you put on life? Plus the first death isn't permanent, the second death is permanent.

 

[Free]

Free, the thread is not about God's nature...I do believe I had a thread on that some time ago.
This thread is about reconciling the God of the OT with the God of the NT.
To some it sounds like 2 different Gods and some theologians are discussing how this could possibly be reconciled.
In the OP I stated that Wm Craig had some comments that were not appreciated by many.

Right, but God's nature cannot be kept out of the discussion. It is very important to understand God's nature to see why he does what he does, in both the OT and the NT, which shows that he is no different from one to the other. You cannot reconcile "the God of the OT with the God of the NT" without understanding God's nature.

OK
So going by your above quotes....how does this God's nature that you speak of as being holy, patient, good, forgiving, abounding in steadfast love reconcile with God commanding the Hebrews to kill every man, woman and child and to take the young girls captive.

Numbers 31:18
14But Moses was furious with the officers of the army, the commanders over thousands and commanders over hundreds, who had come from service in the war. 15Moses said to them, “Have you allowed all the women to live? 16Look, these people through the counsel of Balaam caused the Israelites to act treacherously against the Lord in the matter of Peor – which resulted in the plague among the community of the Lord! 17Now therefore kill every boy, and kill every woman who has had sexual intercourse with a man. 18But all the young women who have not had sexual intercourse with a man will be yours.




So God DOES have the right to command murder, even though one of His commandments says not to...
and even though, it would seem, goes against His nature as you've described above.?


I'm afraid the above has nothing to do with the OP.
You're offering reasons as to WHY God betrayed His sown nature and killed.

It is not explaining if God broke His nature by doing so.

IF He did, I don't know how this God could ever be trusted.

It's worth noting that first you say "the thread is not about God's nature," but then say "it would seem, goes against His nature," and "You're offering reasons as to WHY God betrayed His own nature and killed," and "It is not explaining if God broke His nature by doing so." It is precisely about God's nature. That is why I first said that that gets to the heart of the matter.

With that said, I don't think you understood the main point of my post. Maybe you skimmed too quickly. What I've posted has everything to do with the OP. God is the one and only righteous judge, whose holiness demands justice for sin. That God ordered the Israelites to kill various tribes in Canaan was because their sin was full (Gen 15:13-16). And there is no excuse for sin (Rom 1:18-21). That is what undergirds all of it. It was time for their judgement from a righteous God.

I provided several verses (and there are more) that show God is patient, long-suffering, to give people every chance to repent and turn to him. He does that in the OT and he's doing that now. But, as Gen 15:13-16 and Prov 29:1 show, God tolerates wickedness for only so long. Judgement must come eventually, if God is truly holy and just. God not only had the right to command to kill in the name of judgement, he had to do it in order to be who he says he is.

If what God did in the OT betrays his own nature, then what he does at the end of all things, as per Revelation, certainly goes against his nature. It's all one and the same. However, contrary to God's commands in the OT to kill being contrary to his nature, all those commands were on the basis of judgement, which God must do in order to be consistent with his nature.

 

[GodsGrace]

You must be failing to realize, Jesus was at Gods side when God ordered all the killing in the OT. Jesus lives to do Gods will thus Jesus agreed 100% with God on those judgements.

Not talking about what Jesus taught....but what God Father did.

 

[GodsGrace]

Christ isn't contradicting the Torah, that is why He didn't say "it is written".

'You have heard what the religious leaders said, but I tell you...."

When Jesus says IT IS WRITTEN, He is confirming something.
Matthew 4:4
Scripture was the authority for Jesus.

When Jesus says: YOU HAVE HEARD IT SAID, He is correcting something.
Matthew 4:27
BUT I SAY TO YOU....Jesus is correcting an OT belief.

He is contradicting the interpretation by the Pharisees, what they said. They quoted to Torah to teach retaliation, to "get even, take revenge quickly".

Remember the context, Jewish zealots would quote scripture to justify their evil against the Romans.

Commentary

Jesus continues his authoritative exposition of the true divine intent of the Torah.4 There is a grudging sort of spirit that afflicts mankind by nature—at least, fallen mankind. Keep score; tit for tat; even-steven, that’s the thing. “Do unto others before they do it to you,” said with a sneer. Given this universal human condition, it was inevitable that some teachers in first-century Judaism would have taken the biblical admonitions regarding just penalties and recompense (Ex 21:24; Lev 24:20; Deut 19:21) and married to them this perspective of “do what you have to, and be sure to get even.”
This is as far away from the Torah’s intention as the east is from the west. Kleinig summarizes how the Law’s statements about retribution were intended to function, even on the level of legal interactions in non-Israelite societies:

The lex talionis [“law of retribution”] was already elaborated quite explicitly in Mesopotamia long before it was mentioned in the OT. It performed two very important functions there and in ancient Israel. First, it limited the scope for revenge, which always tended to escalate indiscriminately and endlessly in any tribal society. By it, the principle of equivalence was enshrined in the administration of justice. Second, it treated the life and the body of every person as equal in value regardless of social, racial, and economic status.5

In place of a spirit of grudging recompense and quick revenge, Jesus calls his disciples to lives of reckless generosity and naiveté.6 His teaching is hyperbolic—but that does not mean that he is not serious.7 His words are to reform our instincts, our quick reactions, our unwillingness to sacrifice. St. Paul hits very close to this same target with his admonition to not repay evil for evil, but to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:18–21).
If Jesus disciples will err, let it be on the side of not retaliating, of yielding, of giving, or of being taken advantage of. A backhanded slap on the face is not assault; it is insult.8 Jews in the first century could readily be forced by occupying Roman soldiers to relinquish possessions or even for a time their freedom.9 The One who teaches these things himself embodied such willing nonresistance and self-sacrifice and quiet submission to evil men when he gave his back to blows and his cheeks to striking.10 In the strength of his eschatological blessing (5:3–12), Jesus’ disciples can learn to exhibit this strong softness, gaining more by giving up what might be theirs by reasonable expectation and by right.

Gibbs, J. A. (2006). Matthew 1:1–11:1 (pp. 302–303). Concordia Publishing House.

Sorry, I don't read commentaries.
If you care to post your POV, fine and I'll reply.
But what some teacher believes is of no concern to me.

 

[eddif]

Where does Genesis speak of the idea of an eye for an eye?

I vote for taking a break.

Exodus 21 is sort of close to Genesis. LOL

eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

It concerns the topic because its possible we don't have all the facts. People hate Christianity because they believe it teaches their unsaved family and friends are roasting in the flames of torment.

This goes without saying.
But don't you believe God told us what was necessary for us to know to believe He is a God that loves us and will do what's best for us?
Can we believe this if God goes against His own principles?
Do not kill.
What other principles will He invalidate? (that He has revealed to us).

But as I point out, THAT isn't what scripture teaches. Therefore, all who reject Christianity do so ignorantly. Yet they believe they can judge God, or Christianity. That is delusional. WE don't know what we don't know, that changes everything.

I refer you to Romans 1:18-21 or thereabouts.
No one has an excuse for not believing in God.

Your last question implies God would tolerate those who feign repentance.

God cannot be mocked.

Here's my last question, to which you're replying:

If I'm dead....
and I know it....
And God gives me a second chance....
what kind of a crazy person would I have to be not to take it?

I'm saying the opposite of what you're understanding....
What IDIO wouldn't take the second chance??

See?

There is something essentially bad in the wicked, they love wickedness. They can't hide that from God. They will try to fool Him, but He won't be deceived:

Compare what apostates claim when Christ Judges them, that they follow Him:

22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' (Matt. 7:22-23 NKJ)

What does Matthew 7:22-23 mean to you?

 

[GodsGrace]

I vote for taking a break.

Exodus 21 is sort of close to Genesis. LOL

eddif

Why take a break?

Where does Genesis 9 speak of an eye for an eye?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Where does Genesis speak of the idea of an eye for an eye?
Please provide the verse.

Genesis didn’t, but the same principle of retribution is stated in Ex. 21:24, Lev. 24:20, Deut. 19:21.

In Matthew 5:18.....Jesus says to not repay evil with evil. In fact He says to turn the other cheek.
This is figurative of course, but the context is that we're to honor God and not other men...,
thus an eye for an eye was not supported by Jesus.

That’s not what Jesus did when he was struck. Instead he protested:

And when he said these things, one of the officers who stood by struck him with the palm of his hand: “do you answer the high priest like that?” Jesus answered him: “if I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil; but if well, WHY DO YOU STRIKE ME?” (Jn. 18:22-23) why didn’t the Lord turn the other cheek?

God would carry out His own justice - man was not to do so.

Yes, man MUST do so, again Gen. 9:6, which alludes to Rom. 13:1-4. This is a response to the pre-flood world of extreme wickedness, that was a result of extreme lawlessness.

 

[GodsGrace]

An eye for an eye did not mean take your brothers eye if he took yours. It meant--justice will prevail even if God had to hand out an equal justice for ones unjust act.

God is creator, he owns every iota of creation. He has 100% right to say what is allowed and what isn't allowed. If one opposes God they deserve death. God handed them life for free of charge. What value would you put on life? Plus the first death isn't permanent, the second death is permanent.

OK
I guess God could do whatever He wants to do.
Even what He said not to do.

 

[Alfred Persson]

When Jesus says IT IS WRITTEN, He is confirming something.
Matthew 4:4
Scripture was the authority for Jesus.

When Jesus says: YOU HAVE HEARD IT SAID, He is correcting something.
Matthew 4:27
BUT I SAY TO YOU....Jesus is correcting an OT belief.


Sorry, I don't read commentaries.
If you care to post your POV, fine and I'll reply.
But what some teacher believes is of no concern to me.

Context adds weight to my interpretation for a number of reasons:

The Jews would stone anyone who openly contradicted the Torah.

Jesus explicitly rejects the allegation He is changing anything in the Law or the Prophets.

Then Jesus' focus shifts to the teachings of the Pharisee etc, so "you have heard it was said [by the ancient rabbis] to those of old....but I say to you....."

Corroborating this is verse 43, "hate your enemies" is a Rabbinic teaching.

Jesus lists various perversions of the Torah by the Pharisees, to refute them. In vs. 22 Jesus shows how incomplete the understanding of the Torah was, that it extends to the spirit of the law not just the letter, and the principle is applied to how we treat others.

"Unless your righteousness exceeds" the scribes and Pharisees....it is their teaching that is being corrected, expanded or outright contradicted as in their teaching a man could divorce his wife for any reason. He need only write a certificate making the divorce lawful.

17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old,`You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.'
22 "But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother,`Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says,`You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 "Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
24 "leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
25 "Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
26 "Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old,`You shall not commit adultery.'
28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
30 "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
31 "Furthermore it has been said,`Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'
32 "But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.
33 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old,`You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.'
34 "But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne;
35 "nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
36 "Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.
37 "But let your`Yes' be`Yes,' and your`No,'`No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
38 "You have heard that it was said,`An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
39 "But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
40 "If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also.
41 "And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.
42 "Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.
43 "You have heard that it was said,`You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
45 "that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 "And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
48 "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. (Matt. 5:17-6:1 NKJ)

 

[GodsGrace]

Right, but God's nature cannot be kept out of the discussion. It is very important to understand God's nature to see why he does what he does, in both the OT and the NT, which shows that he is no different from one to the other. You cannot reconcile "the God of the OT with the God of the NT" without understanding God's nature.

The point of this thread is to show how God is not adhering to His nature.
Not to discuss His nature...which was touched upon.
The point is that if He does not adhere to His nature,
He cannot be trusted....

It's worth noting that first you say "the thread is not about God's nature," but then say "it would seem, goes against His nature," and "You're offering reasons as to WHY God betrayed His own nature and killed," and "It is not explaining if God broke His nature by doing so." It is precisely about God's nature. That is why I first said that that gets to the heart of the matter.

Yes, and I can repeat this.

With that said, I don't think you understood the main point of my post. Maybe you skimmed too quickly. What I've posted has everything to do with the OP. God is the one and only righteous judge, whose holiness demands justice for sin. That God ordered the Israelites to kill various tribes in Canaan was because their sin was full (Gen 15:13-16). And there is no excuse for sin (Rom 1:18-21). That is what undergirds all of it. It was time for their judgement from a righteous God.

OK
So God ordered man to kill.
Didn't God order man NOT to kill while travelling through Sinai?

We're not discussing sin here.
We all sin.
Maybe we should all be struck down?
Is this what God said He would do or does He have a plan of salvation?

This is really off-topic.

I provided several verses (and there are more) that show God is patient, long-suffering, to give people every chance to repent and turn to him. He does that in the OT and he's doing that now. But, as Gen 15:13-16 and Prov 29:1 show, God tolerates wickedness for only so long. Judgement must come eventually, if God is truly holy and just. God not only had the right to command to kill in the name of judgement, he had to do it in order to be who he says he is.

OK.
This is your opinion then.
I cannot agree.
It splits God in two and makes the God of the OT completely different from the God of the NT.

One teaches man to kill other men.
One teaches to turn the other cheek.

One has a child brought to the edge of town to be stoned to death...
One gives instruction on how to raise children properly and says they are to come to Him.

One gives us hundreds of laws to keep..
One tells us He will change our heart.

If what God did in the OT betrays his own nature, then what he does at the end of all things, as per Revelation, certainly goes against his nature. It's all one and the same. However, contrary to God's commands in the OT to kill being contrary to his nature, all those commands were on the basis of judgement, which God must do in order to be consistent with his nature.

If the above is correct, God is not to be trusted.

 

[Free]

Once again, the OP is not being addressed.
The REASON why God had everyone killed is not the topic here....
But the fact that it SEEMS as though God commanded everyone to be killed and thus commanding men to do what HE in one of HIS commandments forbad man to do.
Kill.

Which is precisely why the reason God had everyone killed (which didn’t actually happen) is central.

This is a man's opinion.
Honestly, I don't really care what he thinks.

You should. God gifts many people for the purpose of understanding and teaching. A very American and Western view of life, and thereby biblical interpretation and understanding, is far too individual focused. God calls people not only into relationship with him, but into a loving community with all believers, hence the language of sins and daughters; familial language.

That means we are never to “do theology” on our own; we are to do it as a community. That, in turn, means that we should be reading many works of others from the beginning, taking into consideration how they understand what is written. That includes all manner of books, commentaries, and dictionaries. It’s all the more important for us as we’re 2,000 years out, trying to understand what was written in languages that aren’t around anymore.

I could post back someone that writes something different - what would that get us?

Maybe a different understanding; maybe a better understanding.

We're not discussing God exercising justice.
We're discussing how God could command man to do something that is AGAINST the 10 Commandments....which are written in stone.

Which, as I’ve shown, has everything to do with God’s justice. Everything God says and does necessarily flows from his nature.

 

[kjw47]

OK
I guess God could do whatever He wants to do.
Even what He said not to do.

God warned all. He won't put up with wickedness.

 

[Iconoclast]

Which is precisely why the reason God had everyone killed (which didn’t actually happen) is central.


You should. God gifts many people for the purpose of understanding and teaching. A very American and Western view of life, and thereby biblical interpretation and understanding, is far too individual focused. God calls people not only into relationship with him, but into a loving community with all believers, hence the language of sins and daughters; familial language.

That means we are never to “do theology” on our own; we are to do it as a community. That, in turn, means that we should be reading many works of others from the beginning, taking into consideration how they understand what is written. That includes all manner of books, commentaries, and dictionaries. It’s all the more important for us as we’re 2,000 years out, trying to understand what was written in languages that aren’t around anymore.


Maybe a different understanding; maybe a better understanding.


Which, as I’ve shown, has everything to do with God’s justice. Everything God says and does necessarily flows from his nature.

When people turn away from sound teaching, commentaries, and God given teachers...error follows such people shortly there after. We see that here with some suggesting God goes against His own nature
Such an idea is profane. All biblical theology starts with the presupposition of our God being Holy and Perfect in all His ways. When so called teachers leave the pathway of trusted guides, error is waiting for them.

 

[kjw47]

Not talking about what Jesus taught....but what God Father did.

Jesus only teaches what God the Father commands him to teach.( John 5:19,30) Jesus lives to do his Fathers will over self as thetrue followers do as well( Matt 7:21)