God's Conditional Grace

[Eventide]

Re: the spirit of error..

My answer is the same as what the Bible says, "YES"

Any chance that your one true church might have this wrong ?

Has your assembly reached the fulness of the stature of Christ in all things and now there's no more need to GROW in the GRACE and in the KNOWLEDGE of Jesus Christ ?

 

[rrowell]

Re: the spirit of error..

Any chance that your one true church might have this wrong ?

Has your assembly reached the fulness of the stature of Christ in all things and now there's no more need to GROW in the GRACE and in the KNOWLEDGE of Jesus Christ ?

Answer to question 1 : NO
Answer to question 2 : NO (There is always room to grow, there is always something to learn)

Again, it is simple logic, as the form of the statement in Acts 2:38 is simple math:

Mark 16:16 (KJV)
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Only a TRUE evaluation of ALL logical statements can make the entire statement "TRUE".

SAVED, BELIEVETH, BAPTIZED ARE A LOGICAL BOOLEAN VALUE OF TRUE OR FALSE

((BELIEVETH=FALSE) AND (BAPTIZED=TRUE)) = (SAVED=FALSE)

((BELIEVETH=TRUE) AND (BAPTIZED=FALSE)) = (SAVED=FALSE)

((BELIEVETH=FALSE) AND (BAPTIZED=FALSE)) = (SAVED=FALSE)

((BELIEVETH=TRUE) AND (BAPTIZED=TRUE)) = (SAVED=TRUE)

(BELIEVETH=FALSE) = (SAVED=FALSE)

 

[Eventide]

Re: the spirit of error..

Answer to question 1 : NO
Answer to question 2 : NO (There is always room to grow, there is always something to learn)

Again, it is simple logic, as the form of the statement in Acts 2:38 is simple math:

Mark 16:16 (KJV)
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Only a TRUE evaluation of ALL logical statements can make the entire statement "TRUE".

SAVED, BELIEVETH, BAPTIZED ARE A LOGICAL BOOLEAN VALUE OF TRUE OR FALSE

((BELIEVETH=FALSE) AND (BAPTIZED=TRUE)) = (SAVED=FALSE)

((BELIEVETH=TRUE) AND (BAPTIZED=FALSE)) = (SAVED=FALSE)

((BELIEVETH=FALSE) AND (BAPTIZED=FALSE)) = (SAVED=FALSE)

((BELIEVETH=TRUE) AND (BAPTIZED=TRUE)) = (SAVED=TRUE)

(BELIEVETH=FALSE) = (SAVED=FALSE)

Your answer to #1 is amazing to me.. I simply don't understand that..

For #2.. to me it's as if you're looking at it from more of a mechanical perspective rather than the simple and infinitely glorious gospel call that it is..

Baptism is for BELIEVERS, and the Apostle Paul (He is the Apostle to the GENTILES) clearly teaches that we were SEALED with the HOLY SPIRIT of promise AFTER we trusted in Christ and AFTER we BELIEVED.

IT should be obvious to a NT assembly as to whether or not a person is under conviction to be baptized in water as compared to him WANTING to be baptized because of the GRACE of God he NOW HAS after he trusted in Christ.. and more importantly.. AFTER GOD MIRACULOUSLY birthed CHRIST in that person, and that IS the earnest of our inheritance IN HIM unto the redemption of the purchased possession, UNTO the PRAISE of the GLORY of HIS GRACE..

A born again CHRISTian is (most of the time) going to DESIRE to be baptized in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ.. whereas a person being heavily convicted about the whole matter, and who has not been born again.. will most of the time not want to be baptized..

But even this is too mechanical.. there are almost a seemingly infinite number of situations and circumstances surrounding the whole matter, so it obviously may appear to be different in our eyes depending upon where we are In Christ.. are we babes in Christ.. are we a few years old.. 10, 20 , 30, how about being in Christ for 40 years..

I didn't have a clue what happened to me when Christ was born in me.. although as we grow in the grace and in the knowledge of Christ we see the scriptures provide what are imo, precise detail as to HOW the miracle happened in us..

And once again.. the truth of baptism is agreeing with God about your condition, and His righteousness, and the judgment which has settled the matter entirely and for ever. We don't need to even fully understand that.. although that is certainly in the forefront of the mind and the heart when a man is to agree with God and walk together with Him, deny themselves, and taking up their cross..

The Lord Jesus Christ WINS the hearts and minds of men.. we certainly (IMO) do not need men breathing threats of an eternal torture in hell if they're not baptized in water..

IMO that is missing the Lord Jesus Christ walking by.. for the sake of being called His one true church..

 

[BornAgain]

Re: the spirit of error..

Your answer to #1 is amazing to me.. I simply don't understand that..

For #2.. to me it's as if you're looking at it from more of a mechanical perspective rather than the simple and infinitely glorious gospel call that it is..

Baptism is for BELIEVERS, and the Apostle Paul (He is the Apostle to the GENTILES) clearly teaches that we sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT of promise AFTER we trusted in Christ and AFTER we BELIEVED.

IT should be obvious to a NT assembly as to whether or not a person is under conviction to be baptized in water as compared to him WANTING to be baptized because of the GRACE of God he NOW HAS after he trusted in Christ.. and more importantly.. GOD MIRACULOUSLY birthed CHRIST in that person, and that IS the earnest of our inheritance IN HIM unto the redemption of the purchased possession, UNTO the PRAISE of the GLORY of HIS GRACE..

A born again CHRISTian is (most of the time) going to DESIRE to be baptized in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ.. whereas a person being heavily convicted about the whole matter, and who has not been born again.. will most of the time not want to be baptized..

But even this is too mechanical.. there are almost a seemingly infinite number of situations and circumstances surrounding the whole matter, so it obviously may appear to be different in our eyes depending upon where we are In Christ.. are we babes in Christ.. are we a few years old.. 10, 20 , 30, how about being in Christ for 40 years..

I didn't have a clue what happened to me when Christ was born in me.. although as we grow in the grace and in the knowledge of Christ we see the scriptures provide what are imo, precise detail as to HOW the miracle happened in us..

And once again.. the truth of baptism is agreeing with God about your condition, and His righteousness, and the judgment which has settled the matter entirely and for ever. We don't need to even fully understand that.. although that is certainly in the forefront of the mind and the heart when a man is to agree with God and walk together with Him, deny themselves, and taking up their cross..

The Lord Jesus Christ WINS the hearts and minds of men.. we certainly (IMO) do not need men breathing threats of an eternal torture in hell if they're not baptized in water..

IMO that is missing the Lord Jesus Christ for the sake of being His one true church..

I know we have been over this again and again, but why does Jesus command us to be baptized...it is not an option

John 3:5 KJV

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

To enter the kingdom is to be saved. (Col. 1:13, 14.) To be saved one must believe, repent, confess and be baptized for (unto) the remission of sins. (Heb. 11:6; Luke 13:3; Rom. 10:10; Acts 2:38.) To enter the kingdom one must be born of water and the Spirit. Since things equal to the same thing are equal to each other, it follows that to be born of water and the Spirit is to believe the gospel, repent of one's sins, confess one's faith in Christ and be baptized for the remission sins. John 3:5 figuratively states what is literally affirmed in Acts 2:38. To be born "anew" is simply to obey the gospel. It is not surprising that those who deny to baptism its proper place among the conditions of pardon would interpret "water" in John 3:5 to mean something other than baptism; in so doing, they are in conflict with the scholarship of the world, both ancient and modern. Henry Alford, one of the translators of the American Standard Version, wrote that "all attempts to get rid" of baptism in this passage, "have sprung from doctrinal prejudices by which the views of expositors have been warped," and Hooker, himself a writer of more than a hundred years ago, said that "of all ancient writers there is not one to be named who ever expounded this text otherwise than as implying external baptism." One is begotten of the Spirit by believing the Word which the Spirit gave, and born of water by coming forth from the waters of baptism.
—Gospel Advocate Commentaries

 

[Eventide]

So I guess this is a few of you folks from the church of Christ here who are going to do nothing besides think of yourselves as the one true church and that if it doesn't happen in your church then it doesn't count.. you all have complete knowledge of the whole process all of the time and actually are led to believe that your assembly is saving people and making them members of the body of Christ.

I'm sorry, I seriously have no desire to go through this kind of argument and get nowhere.. you're either going to believe what your one true church has been teaching you.. or admit that you can't even begin to understand the love and the grace of God in our Lord Jesus Christ..

I can't imagine NOT being convicted of that.. I can't even begin to understand His grace.. let alone think that my assembly has it all down and then collects a huge paycheck from week to week for starting this true NT church...

So.. no offense but I just have no desire to go on and on with this.

 

[BornAgain]

So I guess this is a few of you folks from the church of Christ here who are going to do nothing besides think of yourselves as the one true church and that if it doesn't happen in your church then it doesn't count.. you all have complete knowledge of the whole process all of the time and actually are led to believe that your assembly is saving people and making them members of the body of Christ.

I'm sorry, I seriously have no desire to go through this kind of argument and get nowhere.. you're either going to believe what your one true church has been teaching you.. or admit that you can't even begin to understand the love and the grace of God in our Lord Jesus Christ..

I can't imagine NOT being convicted of that.. I can't even begin to understand His grace.. let alone think that my assembly has it all down and then collects a huge paycheck from week to week for starting this true NT church...

So.. no offense but I just have no desire to go on and on with this.

It is not what the "one true church" teaches, it is what the bible teaches. I go with what the bible says. Baptism does not exclude the other gifts you receive but it is one command to obey. They say straight is the gate and narrow is the way. Individuals have a problem submitting to obedience. That is why there is so much division and denominations. That's not what Jesus wanted....

 

[farouk]

Baptism is symbolic. It is not a replacement for the work of Christ.

 

[BornAgain]

Baptism is symbolic. It is not a replacement for the work of Christ.

It is not symbolic. If you say that then you are saying the bible is wrong...

 

[Eventide]

It is not what the "one true church" teaches, it is what the bible teaches. I go with what the bible says. Baptism does not exclude the other gifts you receive but it is one command to obey. They say straight is the gate and narrow is the way. Individuals have a problem submitting to obeying. That is why there is so much division and denominations. That's not what Jesus wanted....

Well, as long as it's entirely settled in your mind.. as it is in the mind of Christ...

How could the one true "Church of Christ" be wrong about anything.. ?

If I remember correctly, they were preterist in eschatology.. lol.. not sure though..

I've had enough though.. ya all battle it out against the Church of Christ.

 

[smaller]

It is not what the "one true church" teaches, it is what the bible teaches. I go with what the bible says. Baptism does not exclude the other gifts you receive but it is one command to obey. They say straight is the gate and narrow is the way. Individuals have a problem submitting to obedience. That is why there is so much division and denominations. That's not what Jesus wanted....

Unfortunately christianity today has gazillions of variations on just about everything and believers mistake these variations to be what Jesus wanted...

and then we all go about figuring out a gazillion ways to condemn each others to hell.

I doubt very much that is what Jesus wanted either.

There is a trap set in all of these matters to reveal the wolves within christiandom and over time some sheep will steer clear of such avenues.

s

 

[BornAgain]

Unfortunately christianity today has gazillions of variations on just about everything and believers mistake these variations to be what Jesus wanted...

and then we all go about figuring out a gazillion ways to condemn each others to hell.

I doubt very much that is what Jesus wanted either.

There is a trap set in all of these matters to reveal the wolves within christiandom and over time some sheep will steer clear of such avenues.

s

If we all would live by what the bible teaches there would be no division, confusion, denominations, etc. Jesus made it simple for all of us and we make it so confusing.

 

[smaller]

If we all would live by what the bible teaches there would be no division, confusion, denominations, etc. Jesus made it simple for all of us and we make it so confusing.

Divisions are Divinely Intentional as are heresies.

 

[Mike S]

It is not symbolic. If you say that then you are saying the bible is wrong...

I don't think you're correct.

Baptism IS a sacrament in which God's Grace is freely given, but is also a symbolic act of joining Christ in His death and resurrection. We do not literally stop breathing, go into the tomb, and rise again during baptism. We die to an old life and are resurrected into a new life. We are baptised in the water and the spirit.

 

[BornAgain]

I don't think you're correct.

Baptism IS a sacrament in which God's Grace is freely given, but is also a symbolic act of joining Christ in His death and resurrection. We do not literally stop breathing, go into the tomb, and rise again during baptism. We die to an old life and are resurrected into a new life. We are baptised in the water and the spirit.

It is not a matter of being correct...it is a matter of truth.

Romans 6:4 (KJV)
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

"Baptism has a double function. (1) It brings the Christian into personal contact with Christ, so close that it may be fitly described as union with him. (2) It expresses symbolically a series of acts corresponding to the redeeming acts of Christ. Immersion = Death. Submersion = Burial (the ratification of Death). Emergence = Resurrection. All these the Christian has to undergo in a moral and spiritual sense, and by means of his union with Christ. As Christ by his death on the cross ceased from all contact with sin, so the Christian, united with Christ in his baptism, has done once for all with sin and lives henceforth a reformed life dedicated to God." (Similar testimonies and admissions might easily be greatly multiplied, but there is no need; these among the more recent will suffice.

 

[smaller]

I don't think you're correct.

Baptism IS a sacrament in which God's Grace is freely given, but is also a symbolic act of joining Christ in His death and resurrection. We do not literally stop breathing, go into the tomb, and rise again during baptism. We die to an old life and are resurrected into a new life. We are baptised in the water and the spirit.

Part of the issues with any practice/sacrament is the tendency to ritualize every last detail and statement, and in the end a spiritual or symbolic matter is transformed into yet another form of 'law' that eventually winds up being used to condemn everyone else who doesn't perform in the exactly prescribed manners that all these various sects come up with. Of course every believer initially wants to get this 'just right' and 'perfect.'

Unfortunately many of the participants forgot they were NOT perfect to begin with and are NOT perfect by ritualistic practices or participation afterwards.

What may be a genuine and sincere action by some can be an equally damning action when handled by others.

It's quite pathetic actually. Sickening. Twisted. But in these matters many hearts are revealed for what they really are.

s

 

[rrowell]

Re: the spirit of error..

Your answer to #1 is amazing to me.. I simply don't understand that..

For #2.. to me it's as if you're looking at it from more of a mechanical perspective rather than the simple and infinitely glorious gospel call that it is..

There will be many that are called, but not all will answer, even those that thought they answered:

Matthew 7:22 (KJV)
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Baptism is for BELIEVERS, and the Apostle Paul (He is the Apostle to the GENTILES) clearly teaches that we were SEALED with the HOLY SPIRIT of promise AFTER we trusted in Christ and AFTER we BELIEVED.

That's why Mark 16:16 says "believe" before "baptize" and if you don't "believe" no need to "baptize" (why the last part of the verse leaves out "baptize")

Mark 16:16 (KJV)
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

IT should be obvious to a NT assembly as to whether or not a person is under conviction to be baptized in water as compared to him WANTING to be baptized because of the GRACE of God he NOW HAS after he trusted in Christ.. and more importantly.. AFTER GOD MIRACULOUSLY birthed CHRIST in that person, and that IS the earnest of our inheritance IN HIM unto the redemption of the purchased possession, UNTO the PRAISE of the GLORY of HIS GRACE..

Where does it say one is "baptized" without "water" other than Apostles or the house of Cornelius?, and even Paul was baptized with "water" as were the house of Cornelius. You or I are neither.

Your confuse being "baptized by the Holy Spirit" with "baptized with the Holy Spirit"

The only recorded baptism "with" the Holy Spirit were Apostles and the House of Cornelius...

A born again CHRISTian is (most of the time) going to DESIRE to be baptized in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ.. whereas a person being heavily convicted about the whole matter, and who has not been born again.. will most of the time not want to be baptized..

They will if they want to be "born again":

Romans 6:4 (KJV)
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

See that newness of life? that's "born again"

But even this is too mechanical.. there are almost a seemingly infinite number of situations and circumstances surrounding the whole matter, so it obviously may appear to be different in our eyes depending upon where we are In Christ.. are we babes in Christ.. are we a few years old.. 10, 20 , 30, how about being in Christ for 40 years..

I didn't have a clue what happened to me when Christ was born in me.. although as we grow in the grace and in the knowledge of Christ we see the scriptures provide what are imo, precise detail as to HOW the miracle happened in us..

I think we differ on what it takes to be "in Christ".

And once again.. the truth of baptism is agreeing with God about your condition, and His righteousness, and the judgment which has settled the matter entirely and for ever. We don't need to even fully understand that.. although that is certainly in the forefront of the mind and the heart when a man is to agree with God and walk together with Him, deny themselves, and taking up their cross..

The Lord Jesus Christ WINS the hearts and minds of men.. we certainly (IMO) do not need men breathing threats of an eternal torture in hell if they're not baptized in water..

It's not my job to judge, I can only tell you what the bible says, it says if you do not believe AND be baptize, you will be damned, I didn't say it the Bible did. if the Bible seems threatening, its a good reason to "obey" his commands and "baptism" is one of them.

IMO that is missing the Lord Jesus Christ walking by.. for the sake of being called His one true church..

Unfortunately your opinion isn't good enough for me.

 

[rrowell]

Divisions are Divinely Intentional as are heresies.

What he made "one Church"
What man made "thousands of Churches"

Division comes from men, unity comes from the Bible.

 

[BornAgain]

Part of the issues with any practice/sacrament is the tendency to ritualize every last detail and statement, and in the end a spiritual or symbolic matter is transformed into yet another form of 'law' that eventually winds up being used to condemn everyone else who doesn't perform in the exactly prescribed manners that all these various sects come up with. Of course every believer initially wants to get this 'just right' and 'perfect.'

Unfortunately many of the participants forgot they were NOT perfect to begin with and are NOT perfect by ritualistic practices or participation afterwards.

What may be a genuine and sincere action by some can be an equally damning action when handled by others.

It's quite pathetic actually. Sickening. Twisted. But in these matters many hearts are revealed for what they really are.

s

How is taking the Word as ritualistic? Nothing Jesus says has anything to do with rituals. I say a heart that is obedient to Christ is a good heart...

 

[rrowell]

I don't think you're correct.

Baptism IS a sacrament in which God's Grace is freely given, but is also a symbolic act of joining Christ in His death and resurrection. We do not literally stop breathing, go into the tomb, and rise again during baptism. We die to an old life and are resurrected into a new life. We are baptised in the water and the spirit.

So where does what she said say anything different?

 

[smaller]

What he made "one Church"
What man made "thousands of Churches"

Division comes from men, unity comes from the Bible.

As stated prior, many sects suffer under delusions of perfect systems and they damn other believers not in their systems.

Such show who they are, to be avoided by others. It's also why a common and blinded unbeliever can 'truthfully' see such practitioners are hypocrites.

Christianity is rightfully mocked by unbelievers for these things. Unbelievers are more truthful. What a shame.

s