God's Conditional Grace

[Eventide]

Re: For the LAW was given by Moses, but Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ...

Who said anything about infants? they can hear but can they believe what they cannot yet understand? I say no, therefore your conclusion is correct, they just got wet.

I was trying to illustrate the point that because a person is baptized in water, regardless if they're an infant or not.. that it does not necessitate that they're born again through that act because God alone places each and every member of HIS BODY into place miraculously by the power of the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13 makes this very clear.

Because only twice has there been anyone baptized with the Holy Spirit and is not relevant, once to the Apostles (Jews) on Pentecost , and once to the house of Cornelius (Gentile) to show all (including the Apostles) that God was not a respecter of person... this is not the baptism you or I or anyone receives today and this baptism did not save them, the very next verse Peter says:

Acts 10:47 (KJV)
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Verse 48 Peter commands them to be Baptized... Why? if this baptism of the Holy Spirit is what you say IS our baptism, then why command them to be baptized with water? because:

Baptism into Christ by the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit is not relevant ?

And again, imo people want to be baptized after they're born again and placed into the body of Christ.. it's joy unspeakable to say the least..

1 Peter 3:20-22 (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:...

The water is here shown as the instrument of salvation and cleansing of sin by example (Noah and his ark, and cleansing the earth) so too does baptism, the instrument being the water, and THROUGH IT we are now saved... but so as not for any to draw conclusion that this be a ritual (show of obedience as some do today) the writer includes (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)

We'll simply need to disagree on this one.. because imo the water didn't save a single soul, the Ark did.. and that's a picture of Christ, as He alone had the waves and billows of God's punishment role over Him on that forsaken cross.. and by His resurrection we're justified.. our baptism is a type of His where we willingly lay down our life for His infinitely glorious life. We die to self and are raised in newness of Life in HIM, for He alone is the way, the truth, and the life.

 

[Eventide]

Another thing that I find amazing is that we find this like figure of baptism coming from Peter... who is the Apostle to the Circumcision.. ie, the Jews.. not from Paul... in fact Paul tells us that the Lord did not send him to baptize, but to bring the gospel to the GENTILES..

It's also fascinating imo that one family will be taken through the great tribulation just as one family was taken through the flood..

And that will be JACOB.. for the Deliverer shall come from Sion and turn ungodliness from Jacob.. in that Day, the Day of the Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ... which shall come as a thief in the night (for the church of God), and as travail upon a woman with child.. when Israel is DELIVERED in that Day.

 

[Eventide]

Can a NATION be BORN in a DAY...

We know that Israel will be restored in the end because Matthew makes that clear..

Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

There it is !

Matthew 25 tells us WHEN the Lord shall sit upon the throne of His glory... and that's when He shall COME in His glory.

 

[Eventide]

The things which shall be here... after...

Revelation 4-20 describes the Day of the Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ... in absolute majestic detail...

Can you see that Day approaching ?

 

[rrowell]

Re: For the LAW was given by Moses, but Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ...

Baptism into Christ by the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit is not relevant ?

And again, imo people want to be baptized after they're born again and placed into the body of Christ.. it's joy unspeakable to say the least..

What do you believe this Gift is?:
Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.<----- This One?

 

[Eventide]

Re: For the LAW was given by Moses, but Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ...

What do you believe this Gift is?:
Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.<----- This One?

It's the Holy Spirit just as it says.. and who is being addressed here.. Jews or Gentiles..?

Don't you agree that it's a simple biblical fact that Gentiles received the same gift BEFORE they were baptized ?

 

[Mitspa]

I see many try to form doctrine from the book of Acts? I think we can see many great truths about the movement of the Holy Spirit!
The teachings of the Apostle Paul, is where all true doctrine must begin. It seems many want to try to understand the "truth of scripture",yet reject the foundations laid by the Apostle Paul?



Rom 2:16 (KJV)



In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Gal 1:11



But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12



For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

The gospel, "believed" is the issue!

1Co 1:17



For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

 

[savedbygrace57]

God's Conditional Grace

This is a false Gospel. Grace cannot be conditional or else it is not Grace. Rom 11:6

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

This is a false Gospel. Grace cannot be conditional or else it is not Grace. Rom 11:6

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Was Naaman's cleansing by grace? Yes

Did Naaman have to meet the condition of dipping 7 times in the Jordan river to be cleansed? Yes


Are you going to argue that because he had to do the work of dipping his cleasing was not of grace?

 

[Mitspa]

Was Naaman's cleansing by grace? Yes

Did Naaman have to meet the condition of dipping 7 times in the Jordan river to be cleansed? Yes


Are you going to argue that because he had to do the work of dipping his cleasing was not of grace?

You do understand that God went to the Cross and shed His blood since Naaman?
You must undestand, the" Old Covenant"- Old Testament, was only a shadow of the NEW Covenant we have in His Blood?

2Co 3:14 (KJV)

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

 

[Mitspa]

Was Naaman's cleansing by grace? Yes

Did Naaman have to meet the condition of dipping 7 times in the Jordan river to be cleansed? Yes


Are you going to argue that because he had to do the work of dipping his cleasing was not of grace?

By the way you may want to find a different example than naaman? First the number 7 is the number of Gods completed work! Second to whole point in the Naaman revelation, is that the pride of man, always seeks to justify himself. Instead of receiving from God with humility!

2Ki 5:13


And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?

2Ki 5:14

Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.

The simplicty of Christ.

 

[rrowell]

Re: For the LAW was given by Moses, but Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ...

It's the Holy Spirit just as it says.. and who is being addressed here.. Jews or Gentiles..?

Don't you agree that it's a simple biblical fact that Gentiles received the same gift BEFORE they were baptized ?

Both Jews and Gentiles were there, and no I do not agree that its a biblical fact they they received the gift BEFORE the baptism... Lets look at it again.

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

They were "all" by means of the address "them" told to "Repent, and be baptized" (surely they had not done it yet)... and by "ye" is a shift to the singular meaning "each one of them", "shall" meaning a point and time "at that point" or "after" will receive the gift.

 

[farouk]

;) Now, to obey: I must get ready for service...

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching
Heb 10:25 (KJV)

BornAgain: Yes, great verse about continuing to meet with Christians. Fellowship is very important. Blessings.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Was Naaman's cleansing by grace? Yes

Did Naaman have to meet the condition of dipping 7 times in the Jordan river to be cleansed? Yes


Are you going to argue that because he had to do the work of dipping his cleasing was not of grace?

I am talking about Salvation by Grace, namaans story as far as i know was not about salvation by grace.

To make a anything a condition for salvation by grace is a flat out denial of it. Rom 11:6

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

You are promoting a false gospel !

 

[farouk]

I remember an experiment at school, where a clear tube of water was suddenly turned green (or was it blue?) if you just added a tiny drop of something.

Grace is like this, I guess; if in human pride, a tiny element of merit is added to the equation, then it's no more the grace of God in Christ that the person is relying on.

 

[Mitspa]

I remember an experiment at school, where a clear tube of water was suddenly turned green (or was it blue?) if you just added a tiny drop of something.

Grace is like this, I guess; if in human pride, a tiny element of merit is added to the equation, then it's no more the grace of God in Christ that the person is relying on.

Good example! But what i have found, is those who seek to justify themselves will begin to ask: "did God really say"? is blue water really blue? " is grace really grace"?

 

[Eventide]

Chosen By God

Or the seemingly endless discussions about election and how you couldn't believe the gospel, So God had to choose you...

What a nice testimony... I can't believe so God repented and believed for me..

Hey, everyone needs to feel special right...

 

[Mitspa]

Re: Chosen By God

Or the seemingly endless discussions about election and how you couldn't believe the gospel, So God had to choose you...

What a nice testimony... I can't believe so God repented and believed for me..

Hey, everyone needs to feel special right...

Thats Funny!
they believe, one day they will believe?
Not my battle. They seem kinda harmless? compared to the damage the legalist inflict on the Body of Christ?

 

[Mitspa]

Many want to come by stealth, and try to steal away a blessing from His hand.
We who love and trust Him, KNOW HIM!
They who add or take away from His work? can never know Him!
Joh 9:39 (KJV)

And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Joh 9:40

And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

Joh 9:41

Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Chosen By God

Thats Funny!
they believe, one day they will believe?
Not my battle. They seem kinda harmless? compared to the damage the legalist inflict on the Body of Christ?

What's more sad is the fact that Calvinists can't even begin to fathom that they're wrong about anything.. They're all infallible in their spoon fed doctrines..

What makes it hilarious is their inability to answer perhaps one of the most simple and fundamental questions in the scriptures.

What must I do to be saved ?

a) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ

b) nothing, I'm chosen by God