God's Conditional Grace

[Ernest T. Bass]

You do understand that God went to the Cross and shed His blood since Naaman?
You must undestand, the" Old Covenant"- Old Testament, was only a shadow of the NEW Covenant we have in His Blood?

2Co 3:14 (KJV)



But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

You did not address the fact that Naaman having to do a work did not mean his healing was not of grace but that God's grace was conditional.Which means when the bible says one must obey to receive God's grace that obedience does not mean they are trying to earn salvation no more than Naaman earned his healing.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I remember an experiment at school, where a clear tube of water was suddenly turned green (or was it blue?) if you just added a tiny drop of something.

Grace is like this, I guess; if in human pride, a tiny element of merit is added to the equation, then it's no more the grace of God in Christ that the person is relying on.

So Naaman's dipping added to God's grace so his cleansing was not of grace?

Naaman's work of dipping was PART OF God's grace and that work Naaman did detracted nothing fromGod's grace.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I am talking about Salvation by Grace, namaans story as far as i know was not about salvation by grace.

To make a anything a condition for salvation by grace is a flat out denial of it. Rom 11:6

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

You are promoting a false gospel !

The example of Naaman proves your argument fails about verse 6 that you keep quoting. Paul is talking about works of merit and not obedience to God.

Naaman did a obedient work when he dipped in the river yet that work did NOT mean his healing was not of grace. His dipping was part of God's grace.


Likewise, God made belief, repentance, confession and baptism conditional to receiving His grace so obedience to each of these is part of God's grace. So the argument that obedience means one earns salvation and it is not by grace is totally false.


So was Naaman's cleansing by grace or was it not by grace but something he earned?

 

[BornAgain]

I have read these threads over numerous times and read Romans 11:6 and Eph 2:8-10 and am confused. I was baptized over 1 year ago...I first heard the gospel, I believed the gospel, I repented-and had a change of heart and mind, the minute before I was baptized I confessed that I believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord and was baptized. Now, was I saved through obedience from works or by God's grace?

 

[farouk]

I have read these threads over numerous times and read Romans 11:6 and Eph 2:8-10 and am confused. I was baptized over 1 year ago...I first heard the gospel, I believed the gospel, I repented-and had a change of heart and mind, the minute before I was baptized I confessed that I believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord and was baptized. Now, was I saved through obedience from works or by God's grace?

It's all of grace (Ephesians 2.8).

'All of grace, yes, grace surpassing,
Such a portion to bestow.
But the love all knowledge passing,
Grace has taught us now to know.
Love that bore the stripes and sorrow,
Love that suffered on the tree,
Love that shares the bright tomorrow,
With the loved ones, you and me.'

This is not a Scripture, but the poetic content is Scriptural about the the believer's experience of the grace and love of God. "We love Him, because He first loved us."

Blessings.

 

[Eventide]

I have read these threads over numerous times and read Romans 11:6 and Eph 2:8-10 and am confused. I was baptized over 1 year ago...I first heard the gospel, I believed the gospel, I repented-and had a change of heart and mind, the minute before I was baptized I confessed that I believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord and was baptized. Now, was I saved through obedience from works or by God's grace?

Either way it IS God's GRACE.. no matter what we do to His eternal glory will always and forever be of His GRACE alone.. imo..

If you want specifics though.. imo Eph:1:13-14 is precisely how each and every one of us was placed into Christ.. and this connects nicely with 1 Cor 12:13, for there it says that we were all baptized into that one body (the body of Christ), by that SAME Spirit.

So I believe that water baptism comes after salvation.. although again, either way it's by GRACE through faith, and even that is not of ourselves.. it is the free gift of God, unto all and upon all that believe.

 

[BornAgain]

I thank you for your help, I will be prayerful and study more....I just keep seeing faith without works is dead or you are not saved through grace but by obedience, or you have to work to be saved. But, it all comes down to, through God's grace we are saved? Not by our works or obedience? Why then must we take these steps in order to obtain salvation? It seems to me that you have to have faith, obey and work (doing the steps to be baptized) and then receive salvation (by works).

 

[shfam]

I have read these threads over numerous times and read Romans 11:6 and Eph 2:8-10 and am confused. I was baptized over 1 year ago...I first heard the gospel, I believed the gospel, I repented-and had a change of heart and mind, the minute before I was baptized I confessed that I believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord and was baptized. Now, was I saved through obedience from works or by God's grace?

I believe baptism is a representation of your acceptance of Christ.
You have to remember the thief that hung on the cross beside Jesus. He believed in Christ and was saved without being Baptized.

He did it willingly. He didn't tell the people you have to do "this, this, and this" before I go die on the cross for you. We are saved because of the free gift of Christ. If we have to do works to receive it then what was the point of His ultimate work?

 

[farouk]

I thank you for your help, I will be prayerful and study more....I just keep seeing faith without works is dead or you are not saved through grace but by obedience, or you have to work to be saved. But, it all comes down to, through God's grace we are saved? Not by our works or obedience? Why then must we take these steps in order to obtain salvation? It seems to me that you have to have faith, obey and work (doing the steps to be baptized) and then receive salvation (by works).

Baptism and the Lord's Supper are the two ordinances established by the Lord Jesus as testimonies, but they are not meritorious works. They are symbols; one, to be done once; the other repeatedly.

James does tell us that faith without works is dead, but he is not talking about baptism or the Lord's Supper. He is not saying that salvation is by works, either; only that true faith is normally accompanied by evidence of it in a person's life.

 

[Eventide]

I thank you for your help, I will be prayerful and study more....I just keep seeing faith without works is dead or you are not saved through grace but by obedience, or you have to work to be saved. But, it all comes down to, through God's grace we are saved? Not by our works or obedience? Why then must we take these steps in order to obtain salvation? It seems to me that you have to have faith, obey and work (doing the steps to be baptized) and then receive salvation (by works).

In the days, weeks, months, and years ahead I believe that THAT true light will show you who you are, who He is, and the judgment which has already been declared.. because that's what the Spirit of God shows us, even after we're saved.. there will continue to be conviction of sin in our life, His infinite Righteousness, and how that's all been forever settled in heaven.. according to His living, powerful, and effectual word.

The Father loveth the Son and hath given all things into His hand..

 

[BornAgain]

I believe baptism is a representation of your acceptance of Christ.
You have to remember the thief that hung on the cross beside Jesus. He believed in Christ and was saved without being Baptized.

He did it willingly. He didn't tell the people you have to do "this, this, and this" before I go die on the cross for you. We are saved because of the free gift of Christ. If we have to do works to receive it then what was the point of His ultimate work?

I have heard that before but there is no proof that he was not baptized before...he obviously had some knowledge of Christ in order to tell him he believed that Jesus was the Messiah and Jesus had the power to forgive anybody under the old law.

I appreciate your response, though and I do not want to get off track here.

 

[BornAgain]

In the days, weeks, months, and years ahead I believe that THAT true light will show you who you are, who He is, and the judgment which has already been declared.. because that's what the Spirit of God shows us, even after we're saved.. there will continue to be conviction of sin in our life, His infinite Righteousness, and how that's all been forever settled in heaven.. according to His living, powerful, and effectual word.

The Father loveth the Son and hath given all things into His hand..

Thank you...your words are always encouraging!

 

[farouk]

I have heard that before but there is no proof that he was not baptized before...he obviously had some knowledge of Christ in order to tell him he believed that Jesus was the Messiah and Jesus had the power to forgive anybody under the old law.

I appreciate your response, though and I do not want to get off track here.

Born Again:

If it was baptism that saved the repentant malefactor on the Cross yet the baptism itself isn't anywhere mentioned, this would open up a whole range of interpretational difficulties.

There were many who were baptised with the baptism of John, which was unto repentance, although a careful reading of the crucifixion shows that the eventually repentant malefactor wasn't in a repentant frame of mind to begin with.

In brief, it's faith that saves. 'Lord, remember me...'

 

[Eventide]

Thank you...your words are always encouraging!

You're in for the most miraculous journey which your heart and mind could ever begin to fathom.. SO keep you heart and mind steadfast upon Him through it all, because it can get bumpy along the way.. but you're in perfect Hands..

One of my favorite stories concerning this Christian journey is told to us in the ancient texts of the OT.. the story of Abraham sending his eldest servant to find a bride for his only begotten son Isaac..

God has told us the story in countless living and powerful ways, centuries before it ever came to pass..

So enjoy..

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I have read these threads over numerous times and read Romans 11:6 and Eph 2:8-10 and am confused. I was baptized over 1 year ago...I first heard the gospel, I believed the gospel, I repented-and had a change of heart and mind, the minute before I was baptized I confessed that I believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord and was baptized. Now, was I saved through obedience from works or by God's grace?

Both.

 

[farouk]

Both.

Sorry but I feel I have to say that this is seriously false doctrine. Ephesians 2 teaches that works follow faith (verse 10) ; but works do not produce any merit by which the person with faith in the Lord Jesus is saved. James teaches that 'faith without works is dead', which is to say that works accompany faith, but works are never the basis for salvation.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Either way it IS God's GRACE.. no matter what we do to His eternal glory will always and forever be of His GRACE alone.. imo..

If you want specifics though.. imo Eph:1:13-14 is precisely how each and every one of us was placed into Christ.. and this connects nicely with 1 Cor 12:13, for there it says that we were all baptized into that one body (the body of Christ), by that SAME Spirit.

So I believe that water baptism comes after salvation.. although again, either way it's by GRACE through faith, and even that is not of ourselves.. it is the free gift of God, unto all and upon all that believe.

If salvation were by "grace alone" then all men would be saved for God's grace that saves hath appeared to all men, Tts 2:11.

But all are not saved for grace alone does not save but salvation takes God's grace and man's obedient faith....Eph 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith"

Rom 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

It conditionally takes faith on the part of man to access God's grace.

Faith includes water baptism:

Eph 2:8------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
1Pet3:21----baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

Only one way to be saved so faith must include water baptism making water baptism a condition that must be met to receive grace,as Mk 16:16 and Acts 2:38 put baptism BEFORE salvation not after.

Some wrongly argue that water baptism is a work, therefore one who thinks water baptism saves is trying to earn his salvation by this work. First, nowhere does the bible ever call water baptism a work that man does, God does the work when one is water baptism, Col 2:12-14. Secondly, submitting to water baptism does not earn one salvation no more than Naaman dipping earned his cleansing.


So those that would argue obedient works earn salvation realy have no argument unless they want to argue Naaman's dipping meant his cleasning was earned and not of grace.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Born Again:

If it was baptism that saved the repentant malefactor on the Cross yet the baptism itself isn't anywhere mentioned, this would open up a whole range of interpretational difficulties.

There were many who were baptised with the baptism of John, which was unto repentance, although a careful reading of the crucifixion shows that the eventually repentant malefactor wasn't in a repentant frame of mind to begin with.

In brief, it's faith that saves. 'Lord, remember me...'

1) the thief is not an example of NT salvation, he was promised paradise while he and Christ were both alive under the OT law. The thief died before Acts 2:38 came into effect so he was not accountable to as we today are who live after Acts 2:38.


2) there is no proof that the thief was never water baptized.


So here are two reasons the thief fails as proof that water baptism is not essential.

Mk 16:16 and Acts 2:38 both show that water baptism is a condtion God has placed upon receiving his free gift of salvation. In both verses baptism comes BEFORE savlation not after.

 

[BornAgain]

Both.

That is what I was getting at. I was waiting for your response...thank you.

 

[farouk]

1) the thief is not an example of NT salvation, he was promised paradise while he and Christ were both alive under the OT law. The thief died before Acts 2:38 came into effect so he was not accountable to as we today are who live after Acts 2:38.


2) there is no proof that the thief was never water baptized.


So here are two reasons the thief fails as proof that water baptism is not essential.

Mk 16:16 and Acts 2:38 both show that water baptism is a condtion God has placed upon receiving his free gift of salvation. In both verses baptism comes BEFORE savlation not after.

You can't base a doctrine, supposedly that the repentant thief was baptised, on silence.

In Acts 2.38, baptism is linked with repentance. But it doesn't mean that if you are baptised, then this causes repentance to operate retrospecitively. It's an accompanying symbol, not an outward act that spiritually initiates and validates.