God's Conditional Grace

[farouk]

That is what I was getting at. I was waiting for your response...thank you.

I'm afraid what he said was wrong. Symbols never provide merit for salvation. They should accompany faith, but they don't earn, or provide spiritual impetus for, the salvation that is only by the free grace of God in Christ, by faith alone.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Sorry but I feel I have to say that this is seriously false doctrine. Ephesians 2 teaches that works follow faith (verse 10) ; but works do not produce any merit by which the person with faith in the Lord Jesus is saved. James teaches that 'faith without works is dead', which is to say that works accompany faith, but works are never the basis for salvation.

Faith is a work for if it's not then it is dead.

From Eph 2:8 both God's grace and man's obedient faith are both the basis of salvation.

Belief is a work, Jn 6:27-29 and Paul said one "believeth unto righteousness" Rom 10:9. So we have a work unto rightoeusness. Paul also said one "with the mouth confession is made unto salvation". Confessing with the mouth is a work so again we have a work unto salvation. In Rom 6:16 Paul says "obedience unto righteousness", again works leads to righteousness. Faith without works does not save just as works without faith will not save..it takes both.

James NEVER said "works are never the basis for salvation". He said just the opposite "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[farouk]

Faith is a work for if it's not then it is dead.

From Eph 2:8 both God's grace and man's obedient faith are both the basis of salvation.

Belief is a work, Jn 6:27-29 and Paul said one "believeth unto righteousness" Rom 10:9. So we have a work unto rightoeusness. Paul also said one "with the mouth confession is made unto salvation". Confessing with the mouth is a work so again we have a work unto salvation. In Rom 6:16 Paul says "obedience unto righteousness", again works leads to righteousness. Faith without works does not save just as works without faith will not save..it takes both.

James NEVER said "works are never the basis for salvation". He said just the opposite "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

...because faith apart from works is dead, as James says; it's not true faith, when it's by word only; the reality of it must shine through.

Paul speaks of the 'obedience of faith'. Yes, faith involves obeying, but it's by the grace of God. As Ephesians 2 makes it very clear. The 'obedience of faith' isn't works merit, though.

Ernest Bass:

Are you influenced by Roman Catholic theology? because what you are teaching is what Roman Catholic priests have traditionally taught.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You can't base a doctrine, supposedly that the repentant thief was baptised, on silence.

In Acts 2.38, baptism is linked with repentance. But it doesn't mean that if you are baptised, then this causes repentance to operate retrospecitively. It's an accompanying symbol, not an outward act that spiritually initiates and validates.

The thief is a non-issue anyway for he is NOT an example of NT salvation.

The bible is silent on whether the thief was or was not baptized, it does not say either way. So no one can agrue that the thief was NEVER baptized for they cannot prove he was NEVER water baptized. The thief may have been of those in Mk 1:5 that was water bpatized but later fell intoa life of crime.

In Acts 2:38 Peter commanded both repentance and being baptized so his hearers would have to do BOTH if they desired their sins to be remitted, they must first repent, then submit to water baptized. Acts 2:38 does NOT define baptism as merely "an accompanying symbol, not an outward act that spiritually initiates and validates." This is an idea added to the context. Water baptism is not just a symbol it is doing righteousness. In Acts 10:35 Peter said he that worketh righteousness is accepted with God. Doing righteousness is doing what God said to do and God said be water baptized so when Cornelius was water baptized he was working righteousness, ie, he was doing what God said to do thierefore he was accepted with God. Not being water baptized is therefore unrighteousness, it's disobedience to God, it is sin.


Both repentance and baptism are conditions God placed upon salvation and neither earn salvation no more than Naaman dipping earned his cleansing.

 

[farouk]

Baptism is described as the answer of a good conscience toward God (1 Peter 3.21). But it's not a replacement for faith. It's not the same as faith.

Ernest: Are you influenced by Roman Catholic theology?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

...because faith apart from works is dead, as James says; it's not true faith, when it's by word only; the reality of it must shine through.

ANd this is why faith only is dead for it has no works.


(1) faith only>>>>>>>>>(2)saved>>>>>>>>>>(3) then do works


Above is basically how some think salvation occurs. Notice how that initial faith only (1) is dead being void of works. So they have me to think this dead faith only can produce salvation and later works when it can do nothing for it is DEAD. So their whole process of salvation begins and ends at (1) with a DEAD faith for a DEAD faith goes nowhere, produces nothing for it is DEAD.

Paul speaks of the 'obedience of faith'. Yes, faith involves obeying, but it's by the grace of God. As Ephesians 2 makes it very clear. The 'obedience of faith' isn't works merit, though.

You are not suggesting one can only obey if God enables him by grace to obey are you?

Ernest Bass:

Are you influenced by Roman Catholic theology? because what you are teaching is what Roman Catholic priests have traditionally taught.

I disagree with Catholicism as much as I do with Calvinism and faith only. What I posted in prior posts came directly from the bible not Catholic priests. What I posted earlier:

"Belief is a work, Jn 6:27-29 and Paul said one "believeth unto righteousness" Rom 10:9. So we have a work unto rightoeusness. Paul also said one "with the mouth confession is made unto salvation". Confessing with the mouth is a work so again we have a work unto salvation. In Rom 6:16 Paul says "obedience unto righteousness", again works leads to righteousness. Faith without works does not save just as works without faith will not save..it takes both."

This comes straight from Paul who puts works (belief and confessing with the mouth) BEFORE salvation. So Paul makes these obedient works have EVERYTHING to do with being saved.

In Rom 6:16 Paul said we serve either one of two masters, we either serve:

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteousness


I serve obedience unto righteousness. As you have shown in your posts your theology has ruled out #2 for you, sooooo...........

 

[farouk]

You are not suggesting one can only obey if God enables him by grace to obey are you?

It must be all of grace; otherwise, works and human merit intrude. Ephesians 2 is very emphatic about grace. Even when believers were dead in sins, it was wondrous grace that raised them up.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Baptism is described as the answer of a good conscience toward God (1 Peter 3.21). But it's not a replacement for faith. It's not the same as faith.

Ernest: Are you influenced by Roman Catholic theology?

So baptism is the only way one can face God with a good conscience. Peter also said 'baptism doth also now save us'.


The bible is it's own best commentary:


Eph 2:8----faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
1Pet3:21--baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>saves


Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, then the Ephesians faith MUST have included water baptism, no way around it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------


Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls. "

Acts 2:44 "And all that believed were together, and had all things common;"


Who were the ones that "believed" in verse 44? The ones that accepted Peter's words and were baptized or the ones that rejected his words and not baptized? The ones that believed in v44 were the ones that accepted his words and were bpatized in v41 so we have "believed" in verse 44 include being baptized.

Note from v41 that until one is baptized they are rejecting the gospel message.


----------------------------------------------------


Rev 1:5-------Christ's blood>>>>>>>>>>>washed us from our sins
ACts 2:38------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins

Having sins washed and having sins remitted are equivalent, both represent a saved position. Since there is only one way to be saved, no alternatives, then it is in baptism that Christ's blood remits/washes away sins.



"Faith only" is not in any of this.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It must be all of grace; otherwise, works and human merit intrude. Ephesians 2 is very emphatic about grace. Even when believers were dead in sins, it was wondrous grace that raised them up.

ANd this is the point of this thread: did Naaman's obedient work of dipping 'intrude' upon God's grace making his cleansing something merited/earned and not of grace?

 

[Eventide]

So baptism is the only way one can face God with a good conscience. Peter also said 'baptism doth also now save us'.


The bible is it's own best commentary:


Eph 2:8----faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
1Pet3:21--baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>saves


Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, then the Ephesians faith MUST have included water baptism, no way around it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------


Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls. "

Acts 2:44 "And all that believed were together, and had all things common;"


Who were the ones that "believed" in verse 44? The ones that accepted Peter's words and were bpatized or the ones that rejected his words and not baptized? THe ones that believed were the ones that accepted his words and were bpatized so we have "believed" in verse 44 include being baptized. Note also that until one is baptized they are rejecting the gospel message.


----------------------------------------------------


Rev 1:5-------Christ's blood>>>>>>>>>>>washed us from our sins
ACts 2:38------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins

Having sins washed and having sins remitted are equivalent, both represent a saved position. Since there is only one way to be saved, no alternatives, then it is in baptism that Christ's blood remits/washes away sins.



"Faith only" is not in any of this.

Imo the Apostle Paul (Apostle to the GENTILES) could not have possibly uttered through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that the LORD did not send him to baptize, but to preach the GOSPEL.. if baptism was essential for salvation...

Nor could Gentiles have received the Holy Spirit of God prior to being baptized, which is clearly the case in scripture.. they were SEALED in Christ when they believed.

What must I do to be saved.. ?

a) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..

or

b) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptized, and thou shalt be saved..

Once again imo this is a distinction between Israel and the church.. the gospel went out from Jerusalem and is to the Jew first.. and after their continuous rejection of the gospel, the LORD raised up Paul to bring it to the GENTILES..

It's no wonder Peter speaks of baptism in a like figure which saves.. because he is the Apostle to the circumcision.. and again, we hear no such commandment from Paul.. and rather whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD shall be SAVED.

 

[farouk]

ANd this is the point of this thread: did Naaman's obedient work of dipping 'intrude' upon God's grace making his cleansing something merited/earned and not of grace?

You seem to be linking Naaman's washing with baptism; I don't think that this is correct.

Naaman had to humble himself, as the prophet, in his time and place and circumstances, said. At first, Naaman went away in a rage; he was too proud, but he had to humble himself.

 

[BornAgain]

I have yet to get a straight answer on this from anybody in any faith or organization.

Jesus... Jesus, is answering Nicodemus on how one must be born again....When Jesus speaks I listen.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
John 3:4-7 (KJV)

 

[farouk]

I have yet to get a straight answer on this from anybody in any faith or organization.

Jesus... Jesus, is answering Nicodemus on how one must be born again....When Jesus speaks I listen.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
John 3:4-7 (KJV)

Paul speaks of 'the washing of water by the word' in Ephesians 5.26. This is the idea of the cleansing of the Scriptures, as the Spirit applies them to the heart.

 

[BornAgain]

Paul speaks of 'the washing of water by the word' in Ephesians 5.26. This is the idea of the cleansing of the Scriptures, as the Spirit applies them to the heart.

But Jesus is speaking here...

I do not want to get off topic here. Should we start another thread?

 

[BornAgain]

Paul speaks of 'the washing of water by the word' in Ephesians 5.26. This is the idea of the cleansing of the Scriptures, as the Spirit applies them to the heart.

Here is a commentary that I refer to often:

There is one birth; there are two elements, "water," and "the Spirit." Thus, both are essential to the new birth; and the new birth is essential to entering the kingdom. What, then, is meant by being born of water and the Spirit? To enter the kingdom is to be saved. (Col. 1:13, 14.) To be saved one must believe, repent, confess and be baptized for (unto) the remission of sins. (Heb. 11:6; Luke 13:3; Rom. 10:10; Acts 2:38.) To enter the kingdom one must be born of water and the Spirit. Since things equal to the same thing are equal to each other, it follows that to be born of water and the Spirit is to believe the gospel, repent of one's sins, confess one's faith in Christ and be baptized for the remission sins. John 3:5 figuratively states what is literally affirmed in Acts 2:38.

To be born "anew" is simply to obey the gospel. It is not surprising that those who deny to baptism its proper place among the conditions of pardon would interpret "water" in John 3:5 to mean something other than baptism; in so doing, they are in conflict with the scholarship of the world, both ancient and modern. The flesh produces fleshly life; the Spirit begets spiritual life. Nicodemus had thusfar known only the first; the second he must experience before he could enter and enjoy the blessings and benefits of the kingdom. The law that like begets like was and is a universal one and Nicodemus ought already to have perceived it, instead of marvelling at it. It is as immutable and unchangeable as the law of gravity.
—Gospel Advocate Commentaries

 

[farouk]

But Jesus is speaking here...

I do not want to get off topic here. Should we start another thread?

The Lord Jesus further defines what sort of birth it is in the next verse. It is of the Spirit.

Baptismal regeneration is a false doctrine which has hindered the professing church for centuries. It's turning saving faith into a rite which people then wrongly depend upon.

 

[farouk]

Here is a commentary that I refer to often:

There is one birth; there are two elements, "water," and "the Spirit." Thus, both are essential to the new birth; and the new birth is essential to entering the kingdom. What, then, is meant by being born of water and the Spirit? To enter the kingdom is to be saved. (Col. 1:13, 14.) To be saved one must believe, repent, confess and be baptized for (unto) the remission of sins. (Heb. 11:6; Luke 13:3; Rom. 10:10; Acts 2:38.) To enter the kingdom one must be born of water and the Spirit. Since things equal to the same thing are equal to each other, it follows that to be born of water and the Spirit is to believe the gospel, repent of one's sins, confess one's faith in Christ and be baptized for the remission sins. John 3:5 figuratively states what is literally affirmed in Acts 2:38.

To be born "anew" is simply to obey the gospel. It is not surprising that those who deny to baptism its proper place among the conditions of pardon would interpret "water" in John 3:5 to mean something other than baptism; in so doing, they are in conflict with the scholarship of the world, both ancient and modern. The flesh produces fleshly life; the Spirit begets spiritual life. Nicodemus had thusfar known only the first; the second he must experience before he could enter and enjoy the blessings and benefits of the kingdom. The law that like begets like was and is a universal one and Nicodemus ought already to have perceived it, instead of marvelling at it. It is as immutable and unchangeable as the law of gravity.
—Gospel Advocate Commentaries

Gospel Advocate Commentaries is published by the Church of Christ, which teaches baptismal regeneration, similarly to the Roman Catholic church.

The statement, above, 'things equal to the same thing are equal to each other' is somewhat confusing.

 

[reba]

God did not write us a list...

I believe there are reasons for that... Some folks need to do something. Like in relationships often one person is the giving type the other a taker, not that one is better then the other , they need each other...

We here in USA have baptismals, lots of rivers or lakes... a good dunking is close at hand... The christian in the Sudan does not have such and option so maybe baptisim is a sprinkling...

Num 8:7 And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purifying upon them, and let them shave all their flesh, and let them wash their clothes, and so make themselves clean
Sprinkling is scriptural
Do we know how Jesus was baptized? ie: was He dunked ( which is what i think)Did John cup water in his hands and pour it over Him? Does it matter?

Is being baptized an absolute must of salvation? For me i say no His Blood is the absolute must of salvation. Should we be baptised if at all posible yes..

The good ol death bed/fox hole conversions I believe His grace and mercy covers those times ....

 

[rrowell]

So I believe that water baptism comes after salvation.. although again, either way it's by GRACE through faith, and even that is not of ourselves.. it is the free gift of God, unto all and upon all that believe.

Only if you leave out this scripture:

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Imo the Apostle Paul (Apostle to the GENTILES) could not have possibly uttered through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that the LORD did not send him to baptize, but to preach the GOSPEL.. if baptism was essential for salvation...

Nor could Gentiles have received the Holy Spirit of God prior to being baptized, which is clearly the case in scripture.. they were SEALED in Christ when they believed.

Paul, as ALL discples are, was under the great commission of Mt 28:19,20. Nk 16:16 in going to all the world, all creatures teaching and baptizing them.

We know that Paul did baptize, 1 Cor 1:14,16 and he did not sin by doing so even though he said "For Christ sent me not to baptize."

There is no contradiction then between the great commission verses and 1 Cor 1:17. 1 Cor 1:17 is a "not-but" elliptical statement where emphasis is put on one thing over another but not to the exclusion of either. Paul as an inspired apostle put more emphasis on preaching over baptizing but NOT to the exclusion of baptizing. Others could baptize while Paul preached and Paul did baptize some himself.


An example of another 'not-but' elliptical statement can be found in 1 Pet 3:3,4:

"Whose adorning let it NOT be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; BUT [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price."


If in 1 Cor 1:17 Paul is literally saying he is not to baptize at all, then here Peter is telling wives to not put on apparel. But Peter's point is that wives are to put more emphasis on the inward adorning over the outward adorning but not to the total exclusion of the outward adorning. Just as Paul put more emphasis on preaching over baptizing but not to the total exclusion of baptizing.

If you care for me to, I will show you how Paul, in healing the division at Corinth, how Paul in 1 Cor 1:12,13 made baptism essential to salvation, that this is proof text for the necessity of water baptism.

We know the Ephesians were "sealed" but we also know their faith included baptism:

Eph 2:8----faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1pet3:21---baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved, then thier faith MUST have included baptism.

What must I do to be saved.. ?

a) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..

or

b) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptized, and thou shalt be saved..

Once again imo this is a distinction between Israel and the church.. the gospel went out from Jerusalem and is to the Jew first.. and after their continuous rejection of the gospel, the LORD raised up Paul to bring it to the GENTILES..

It's no wonder Peter speaks of baptism in a like figure which saves.. because he is the Apostle to the circumcision.. and again, we hear no such commandment from Paul.. and rather whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD shall be SAVED.

If you look at my reply #88, I showed that believing includes being baptized.

From Acts 15:11 "But we believe that we (Jews) shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they (Gentiles)."

So Jews and Gentiles are saved in like manner way. The like manner way the Jews in Acts 2 and Gentiles in Acts 10 were saved was by water baptism in thename of the Lord for remission of sins. We know that Paul taught the same thing that Peter did in Acts 2:38:

Gal 1:23 "But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. "

1) "the faith" refers to the gospel system of faith found from Matthew to Revelation. As Jude said "Contend for the faith".

2) Saul once persecuted the church at Jerusalem, yet Paul now preacheth (present tense) the faith he once detroyed. The faith at Jerusalem consisted of Acts 2:38, so that is what Paul once destroyed but now preacheth.