God's Conditional Grace

[farouk]

Only if you leave out this scripture:

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

...'for' there refers to the context and relevance; it's not a replacement for faith and the principle of grace.

 

[reba]

Only if you leave out this scripture:

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Are we to stick to the exact order here
Repent
baptized
receive

That implies we never need repent again..

 

[John 8:32]

Some are under the wrong impression that God's grace must be unconditional else man would be trying to earn grace by "working" a condition. Is that the case?


Namaan was told to dip in the Jordan river 7 times and he would be cleansed of his disease.

1) it's undeniable that his cleansing was of grace

2) it's undeniable that he had to "work", i.e., meet the condition of dipping in the river


So who would argue he earned or merited his healing and it was not of God's unmerited favor/grace?


Jesus once spat on the ground creating a mixture he put in a blind man's eyes. Jesus then instructs the man to go and wash his eyes in a pool of water. When the man did as Jesus said he gained his sight.

1) it's undeniable his healing was of grace

2) it's undeniable he had to "work", meet the condition of washing his eyes in the pool.

So who would argue his healing was earned and not of grace?



When it comes to salvation God's grace has always been conditional. For us to be saved, receiving God's grace is conditional upon us believing, Jn 3:16; repenting, Lk 13:3,5; confessing with the mouth, Rom 10:9,10; and being water baptized, Mk 16:16. Many will falsely accuse me of having a 'works based salvation' where I am trying to earn salvation whereby salvation is of debt and not of grace. Yet will these same people accuse Namman or the blind man of earning their healing and it was not of grace when they met conditions?

It is also conditional on obedience...

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

keeping the commandments does not earn salvation, but not keeping them results in not receiving salvation...

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You seem to be linking Naaman's washing with baptism; I don't think that this is correct.

Naaman had to humble himself, as the prophet, in his time and place and circumstances, said. At first, Naaman went away in a rage; he was too proud, but he had to humble himself.

I am making the comparison that Naaman's obedient work in dipping was a necessary condition to receive God's grace for his cleansing and Naaman's obedient work did not subtrack from God's grace it was part of God's grace.

Likewise baptism is also a necessary condition to receive God's grace and it subtracks nothing from God's grace it is part of God's grace.

 

[farouk]

I couldn't find anything in the NT that mentions sprinkling...

Matthew 3:16 explains how Jesus was baptized.

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Matt 3:16 (KJV)

Jesus said in John 3:5 that we must be baptized. Does that matter?

Our beliefs are not important. It is what scripture says and to obey or not to obey. I choose to obey.

Obedience is important.

It's all of grace, so there is no question of earning salvation or merit with God by observing the symbols that the Lord Jesus instituted.

 

[BornAgain]

Obedience is important.

It's all of grace, so there is no question of earning salvation or merit with God by observing the symbols that the Lord Jesus instituted.

I wanted to edit my post and correct John 3:5-

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:5 (KJV)

He did not say baptize as I stated. This is in response to Reba-post #98.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Gospel Advocate Commentaries is published by the Church of Christ, which teaches baptismal regeneration, similarly to the Roman Catholic church.

The statement, above, 'things equal to the same thing are equal to each other' is somewhat confusing.

It depends on how one defines "baptismal regeneration".

The doctrine of water baptism for remission sins is supported by the bible, the idea of baptism without faith is not supported by the bible...


Baptism As a Mystical Sacrament

“Baptism,†as administered by the Roman Catholic Church, reflects a form of “baptismal regeneration†that is wholly at variance with the New Testament. A leading Catholic authority defines “baptism†in the following fashion:

“A sacrament of the New Law instituted by Jesus Christ, in which, as a result of washing with water accompanied by the words ‘I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost,’ a human being is spiritually regenerated, and made capable of receiving the other sacraments†(Attwater, p. 45).
​

This view involves the idea that “baptism†need not be accompanied by faith, or personal surrender to the Lord. Note these additional citations from the same page of this volume.

“Baptism of the insane may be lawfully performed if such a desire has been expressed in a lucid interval, or in imminent danger of death if, before losing reason, a desire had been manifested. Those who have been insane from birth, or since before attaining the use of reason, may at any time be baptized as infants.â€
​

“Baptism of the unborn. If there is not a probable hope that a child can be baptized after birth, Baptism may be administered in the womb: in the case of a head presentation, on the head; in other presentations on the part presented, but then it has to be again baptized conditionally if it is living on complete delivery. Should the mother die in labour, the child is to be extracted from the womb and, if certainly living, baptized absolutely; if life is doubtful, conditionally. An aborted fetus must also be baptized, unconditionally or conditionally according to the circumstances.â€
​

The sentiments expressed by Attwater (whose book, incidentally, has the Imprimatur of the Roman Church) are wholly foreign to New Testament doctrine. But how does the teaching of the New Testament differ from this concept of “baptismal regeneration�

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/416-the-matter-of-baptismal-regeneration

By Wayne Jackson

Sources

Attwater, Donald (1961), A Catholic Dictionary (New York: Macmillan).
Lange, John Peter (1874), The Gospel of John (New York: Scribner, Armstrong & Co.).
Robertson, A.T. (1931), Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville: Broadman), Vol. IV.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It is also conditional on obedience...

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

keeping the commandments does not earn salvation, but not keeping them results in not receiving salvation...

Just as Naaman keeping what God said in dipping in the river did not earn his cleansing, neither does us doing what God said in believing, repenting, confessing with the mouth and being baptized does not earn us salvation.


So any idea that doing obedient works earns savlation making it not of grace fails.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Obedience is important.

It's all of grace, so there is no question of earning salvation or merit with God by observing the symbols that the Lord Jesus instituted.

Obedience is NECESSARY. Naaman would never been cleasned had he never did as God said by dipping 7 times in the Jordan river. And his obedient work of dipping did not merit his cleansing but was part of God's grace. So no one can legitimately argue that obedience earns grace when it does not.

 

[John 8:32]

Just as Naaman keeping what God said in dipping in the river did not earn his cleansing, neither does us doing what God said in believing, repenting, confessing with the mouth and being baptized does not earn us salvation.


So any idea that doing obedient works earns savlation making it not of grace fails.

Exaclty Ernest! God has every right to put conditions on the free gift of grace. He does not give it to everyone regardless, that is universal salvation and the Bible absolutely does NOT teach that. He gives it to those who obey Him.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I wanted to edit my post and correct John 3:5-

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:5 (KJV)

He did not say baptize as I stated. This is in response to Reba-post #98.

Bible verses harmonize and do not contradict, so if you look at other 'born again' verses and compare them with Jn 3:5 we find:


Jn 3:5-------Spirit+++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cor12:13---Spirit+++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Eph5:26-----the word++++washing of water>>>>>cleansed
Tts3:5------Holy Ghost+++washing of reg.>>>>>>>saved.


It's easy for Ernest T to see that being born again is being water baptism.

 

[rrowell]

God did not write us a list...

I believe there are reasons for that... Some folks need to do something. Like in relationships often one person is the giving type the other a taker, not that one is better then the other , they need each other...

We here in USA have baptismals, lots of rivers or lakes... a good dunking is close at hand... The christian in the Sudan does not have such and option so maybe baptisim is a sprinkling...

Num 8:7 And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purifying upon them, and let them shave all their flesh, and let them wash their clothes, and so make themselves clean
Sprinkling is scriptural

You quoted from the OT, did Christ die for nothing? Baptism represents his death burial and resurrection, burying the old man of sin, I was going to have you look up Baptize, but I did it for you and added some emphases for clarification:

Baptize
Usage Number: A-1
Part Of Speech: Noun
Strong's Number: <G908>
Original Word: βάπτισμα, baptisma
Usage Notes: "baptism," consisting of the processes of immersion, submersion and emergence (from baptō, "to dip"), is used (a) of John's "baptism," (b) of Christian "baptism," see B. below; (c) of the overwhelming afflictions and judgments to which the Lord voluntarily submitted on the cross, e.g., Luke 12:50; (d) of the sufferings His followers would experience, not of a vicarious character, but in fellowship with the sufferings of their Master. Some mss. have the word in Matt. 20:22, 23; it is used in Mark 10:38, 39, with this meaning.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words.

Do we know how Jesus was baptized? ie: was He dunked ( which is what i think)Did John cup water in his hands and pour it over Him? Does it matter?

Does it matter???? only if you wish to be Baptized like he was, see the definition of "baptism" above.

Show me one conversion in the NT that included sprinkling, you cannot, but I can show you all 8 that required "Baptism".

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Exaclty Ernest! God has every right to put conditions on the free gift of grace. He does not give it to everyone regardless, that is universal salvation and the Bible absolutely does NOT teach that. He gives it to those who obey Him.

There's nothing written anywhere in the bible that says God must give His free gifts unconditionally.

 

[Eventide]

Paul, as ALL discples are, was under the great commission of Mt 28:19,20. Nk 16:16 in going to all the world, all creatures teaching and baptizing them.

As a Jew I believe he is.. For he became all things to all men.. Although why raise up an Apostle to the Gentiles if his ministration was the same...? How could he possibly utter.. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved... If baptism is required for the Gentile... And why would the Holy Spirit give us examples of GENTILES receiving the Spirit before being baptized ?

We know that Paul did baptize, 1 Cor 1:14,16 and he did not sin by doing so even though he said "For Christ sent me not to baptize."

No doubt about it..

There is no contradiction then between the great commission verses and 1 Cor 1:17. 1 Cor 1:17 is a "not-but" elliptical statement where emphasis is put on one thing over another but not to the exclusion of either. Paul as an inspired apostle put more emphasis on preaching over baptizing but NOT to the exclusion of baptizing. Others could baptize while Paul preached and Paul did baptize some himself.

Again, I disagree.. The Israelites were commanded by Peter to be baptized to receive the free gift.. And the Gentiles received the Spirit before being baptized.. Scriptural facts which can not be ignored.

We also know that there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism.. And we also know that John baptized Israelites with water, but He that comes after me shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire..

Absolutely it is our baptism into Christ by that same Spirit, as 1 Cor 12:13 shows us.

If you look at my reply #88, I showed that believing includes being baptized.

From Acts 15:11 "But we believe that we (Jews) shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they (Gentiles)."

And again, it is the same way.. By grace through faith..

Man has always been justified by faith, even in the OT... Although to suggest that the ordinances delivered to the nation of Israel through the administration of the Law is the same administration which the church of God has, is silly IMO..

 

[Eventide]

I believe that if we look closely at the books of Acts, we see that the gospel was delivered to the nation of Israel first... And after that nation continued its rejection of that gospel.. Their house was left desolate and they have been cut off from the root, which is CHRIST !

Then Paul was raised up to take the gospel of God concerning His Son to the Gentiles... And Israel remains blinded in part until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in..

 

[savedbygrace57]

ebass

The example of Naaman proves your argument fails

It does in your deceived Mind. salvation is by Grace condioned on nothing man does. Rom 11:6

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Christ's One act of Obedience shall make many Righteous Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

If the one being made Righteous had to obey too, then it should read by the obedience of Two shall many be made Righteous. !

 

[reba]

You quoted from the OT, did Christ die for nothing? Baptism represents his death burial and resurrection, burying the old man of sin, I was going to have you look up Baptize, but I did it for you and added some emphases for clarification:

Baptize
Usage Number: A-1
Part Of Speech: Noun
Strong's Number: <G908>
Original Word: βάπτισμα, baptisma
Usage Notes: "baptism," consisting of the processes of immersion, submersion and emergence (from baptō, "to dip"), is used (a) of John's "baptism," (b) of Christian "baptism," see B. below; (c) of the overwhelming afflictions and judgments to which the Lord voluntarily submitted on the cross, e.g., Luke 12:50; (d) of the sufferings His followers would experience, not of a vicarious character, but in fellowship with the sufferings of their Master. Some mss. have the word in Matt. 20:22, 23; it is used in Mark 10:38, 39, with this meaning.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words.Does it matter???? only if you wish to be Baptized like he was, see the definition of "baptism" above.

Show me one conversion in the NT that included sprinkling, you cannot, but I can show you all 8 that required "Baptism".

Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

As a Jew I believe he is.. For he became all things to all men.. Although why raise up an Apostle to the Gentiles if his ministration was the same...? How could he possibly utter.. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved... If baptism is required for the Gentile... And why would the Holy Spirit give us examples of GENTILES receiving the Spirit before being baptized ?

Being baptized with the Holy SPirit had nothing to do with Cornelius' personal salvation. The issue was that the Jews were hesitant about taking the gospel to the Gentiles, they thought the gospel was meant just for the Jews. Cornelius was the first Gentile convert and God did some things to make the Jews understand the gospel is meant for all and not just the Jews. What God did was:

1) sent an angel to Cornelius in a vision and told Cornelius to send for Peter who would tell him what he ought to do.

2) God gave Peter a vision that what God called clean he was not to call unclean, a reference to Gentiles being clean and not unclean

3) God then baptizes the Gentiles with the Holy Spirit where they miraculously spake in tongues.

In Acts 11:4-17 Peter explains to the Jews in Jerusalem all these things God did with the Gentiles. And in verse 18 the result of these things God did was "When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." So the Jews understood by these three things God did that the gospel message was for the Gentiles and not just the Jews.
So being baptized with the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with Cornelius' personal salvation but was one way God was proving to the Jews that the gospel did not just belong to them.

No doubt about it..

So no contradiction between the great commission Paul was under and 1 Cor 1;17.

Again, I disagree.. The Israelites were commanded by Peter to be baptized to receive the free gift.. And the Gentiles received the Spirit before being baptized.. Scriptural facts which can not be ignored.

We also know that there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism.. And we also know that John baptized Israelites with water, but He that comes after me shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire..

Absolutely it is our baptism into Christ by that same Spirit, as 1 Cor 12:13 shows us.

The "like manner" way Jews in Acts 2 and Gentiles in Acts 10 were saved was water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins, Acts 2:28 and Acts 10:47,48. In Acts 2 only the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit and not Peter's listeners, they were water baptized. So water baptism and not Holy Spirit baptism is the like manner way. The eunuch was water baptized not baptized with the Holy Spirit and the Coritnhians were water baptized not baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Jn 3:5-------Spirit++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cor12:13---Spirit++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>in the body

"In the kingdom" and "in the body" are equivalent terms both represent a saved position. Since there is just one way to be saved both Jn 3:5 and 1 Cor 12:13 MUST express the same idea and they show water baptism.

---From Eph 4:5 there is one baptism that is in effect

---From 1 Cor 1:14,16 Paul baptized some of the Corinthians himself. Paul being a human could only administer water baptism for only God can administer baptism with the Holy Spirit. So if 1 Cor 12:13 is some kind of spirit baptism and 1 Cor 1:14,16 is water baptism that is two baptisms and not the one baptism of Eph 4:5. But 1 Cor 12;13 is a reference to water baptism as is 1 Cor 1;14,16. 1 Cor 6:11 the Corinthians had been 'washed' a reference to having been water baptized.


Here is the proof from 1 Cor 1:12,13 that water baptism is essential.


From verse 12 instead of all the Corinthians being OF Christ some were OF Paul or OF Apollos or OF Cephas.

So in verse 13 Paul asked a negative rhetorical question to which the answer is obviously "no". If we put verse 13 in the positive Paul said:

"Christ is not divided! Christ was crucified for you, you were baptized in the name of Christ."

Paul's point in verses 12 and 13 is that if you are going to be 'OF someone' then that someone must 1) be crucified for you and 2) you must be baptized in that someone's name. So one cannot be of Paul or of Apollos or of Cephas for neither of the two things are true of them, these two things are only true of Christ.

So if you are "of Christ" then Christ must:

(1) have been crucified for you

(2) you must be baptized in the name of Christ.

Both are necessary not just one.

So if I am to be of Christ was Christ (1) crucified for me?

Heb 2:9 says Christ "by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

So Christ did die for me and not me only but for all men. Yet all men will not be saved for all men will not meet the second condition for one to be "of Christ" and that is being baptized in the name of Christ which is the same baptism of Acts 2:38; 10:47,48 water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins.

And again, it is the same way.. By grace through faith..

From my reply #88 faith includes water baptism.

Man has always been justified by faith, even in the OT... Although to suggest that the ordinances delivered to the nation of Israel through the administration of the Law is the same administration which the church of God has, is silly IMO..

Justified by faith not by faith only. Again, Jews and Gentiles are saved in like manner and there is no faith only in Acts 2 where the Jews were saved or in Acts 10 with the Gentiles. Faith only does not remit sins, yet water baptism is where sins are remitted and that is the like manner way Jews, Acts 2:38, and Gentiles, Acts 10:47,48, are saved.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I believe that if we look closely at the books of Acts, we see that the gospel was delivered to the nation of Israel first... And after that nation continued its rejection of that gospel.. Their house was left desolate and they have been cut off from the root, which is CHRIST !

Then Paul was raised up to take the gospel of God concerning His Son to the Gentiles... And Israel remains blinded in part until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in..

There was a remnant of Israel that obeyed in Acts 2. The rest could be saved if they would submit/obey the righteousness (commandments) of God, Rom 10:3.

 

[Eventide]

Being baptized with the Holy SPirit had nothing to do with Cornelius' personal salvation.

IMO that is absurd...

Christ in Him was just some demonstration to the Jews ?

We'll simply need to disagree on this one.

IMO getting so fanatical about these things can actually result in people being hardened to its teaching.. Let the Holy Spirit convict us of these things. As mentioned, I believe that people are gladly baptized after receiving the Spirit and I've also had the privilege of baptizing a brother in Christ.. Who was absolutely already saved and in Christ.

Do you actually baptize people to save them in your assembly ?