Hades is Sheol

[Guest]

Here is a quest for you.. find one other text in ALL the Bible that describes Hades or Sheol as a place of fire and torment... to save you some time.. you won't find ANY.

What do you think hell, the lake of fire, worm doesn't die, fire is not quenched, everlasting fire, everlasting punishment, smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever is referring too? It doesn't matter what you wanna call it. This place exists brother. Mr. Strawman.

Gehenna, not Hades.

What about Hades in Luke 16:23. It mentions torment.

 

[Free]

What do you think hell, the lake of fire, worm doesn't die, fire is not quenched, everlasting fire, everlasting punishment, smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever is referring too? It doesn't matter what you wanna call it. This place exists brother. Mr. Strawman.

Gehenna, not Hades.

What about Hades in Luke 16:23. It mentions torment.

That is only one instance out of about eleven and in a context which is not all that clear. Notice that there is no mention of "the lake of fire, worm doesn't die, fire is not quenched, everlasting fire, everlasting punishment, smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

 

[Guest]

What about Hades in Luke 16:23. It mentions torment.

That is only one instance out of about eleven and in a context which is not all that clear.

Even so, it's there. It's prophecy that occurs after judgement day.

 

[Guest]

Notice that there is no mention of "the lake of fire, worm doesn't die, fire is not quenched, everlasting fire, everlasting punishment, smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

It doesn't have too, notice Luke 16:24, the rich man specifically is telling us he is in torment in this flame. He's telling us this!!!

 

[Grappler]

Introduction:

In another thread we have been briefly discussing the nature Hades itself, and some believe that Hades is the place where the final judgement takes place. This is demonstrably not the case as I will demonstrate.

Hades is Sheol:

πάντα ὅσα ἂν εὕρῃ ἡ χείρ σου τοῦ ποιῆσαι,
ὡς ἡ δύναμίς σου ποίησον,
ὅτι οὐκ ἔστιν ποίημα καὶ λογισμὸς καὶ γνῶσις
καὶ σοφία ἐν ᾅδῃ, ὅπου σὺ πορεύῃ ἐκεῖ. (Ecclesiasties 9:10 LXX)

In case you don't read Greek, the highlighted word here is Hades. Hades is the Greek translation of the Hebrew word Sheol, as you will notice in the English translation they supply the transliteration of the word in most of the literal translations for this verse and others.

In the LXX ᾅδης(hades) is almost always a rendering of שְׁאוֹל(Sheol). In the OT this signifies the dark (Job 10:21 f.) “realm of the dead†which is set beneath the ocean (26:5) and which consigns all men indiscriminately (Ps. 89:49) behind its portals to an eternal (Job 7:9 f.; 16:22; Qoh. 12:5) shadowy existence (Is. 14:9), cf. 38:10; Job 38:17. This OT שְׁאוֹל idea is in essential agreement with the conception of the future world found in popular Babylonian belief.

. Vol. 1: Theological dictionary of the New Testament. 1964- (G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley & G. Friedrich, Ed.) (electronic ed.) (146–147). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.​

We must also understand that the use of this word Hades was only used in the context of the Jewish people, primarily in Jesus ministry. This was because the Jews he was speaking with had a knowledge of the Koine Greek used in the Septuagint rather than the Greek underworld of Hades.. though the thought of "underworld" is carried over from the ancient Greek language, the particulars are certainly different.

These are important ideas for determining what Hades meant in the NT.

Hades in the OT (Sheol):

Leading NT Scholar NT Wright has these words to say about the OT teaching on the afterlife and Sheol.

Ecclesiastes, too, insists that death is the end, and there is no return. Though nobody can be sure what precisely happens at death, as far as we can tell humans are in this respect no different from beasts:

The fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals; for all is vanity. All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knows whether the human spirit [or: ‘breath’, ruach] goes upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the earth?

No: to die is to be forgotten for good. Death means that the body returns to the dust, and the breath to God who gave it; meaning not that an immortal part of the person goes to live with God, but that the God who breathed life’s breath into human nostrils in the first place will simply withdraw it into his own possession.

Wright, N. T. (2003). The resurrection of the Son of God. Christian Origins and the Question of God (98–99). London: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge.​

In Job 7:7-10 he about how he who goes down into Sheol (Hades) does not come up, it was believed by the ancient Jews until the post-exilic period that Sheol was a dark underworld of silence where those who dwelt there were in a sleep-like comatose state, that all activity, physical or mental has ceased.

Hence you will find a strong emphasis on the life lived to the fullest and the prayers for the life to be extended, there is little written about the hope of life after death and it was in reference to the resurrection, not a disembodied paradise.

Hades in the NT:

Hades is not a word that comes up often in the NT, it is only found in the following passages (Matthew 11:23, Matthew 16:18, Luke 10:15, Luke 16:23, Acts 2:27, Acts 2:31, Revelation 1:8, Revelation 6:8, Revelation 20:13, Revelation 20:14). We can observe that this was primarily used in the context of Jewish people, Jesus and his teachings in the gospels, and Peter's sermon in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost (though used in reference to the grave.. not the underworld).

In Revelation, it is used as the abode to the dead and also to metaphorically represent a rider of the 4th seal who came with death to bring.. well death.

Much of the OT understanding seemed to have been carried over from the NT as it describes an intermediate type of state that someone goes down to.. an underworld. Hades is seen in Revelation 20 to be dumped into the lake of fire in a sense. Everything associated with death and the end of life seems to be swallowed up in the lake of fire.

Conclusion:

As it has been determined, not just on my opinion alone, but with support of reputable resources and scholarly insight that is quite unanimous. The idea of Hades in the NT is carried over from the understanding of Sheol the world of the dead as understood by ancient Jews and written on quite extensively in the OT.

Therefore, Hades cannot be referring to the final punishment as from early on in the OT people currently were dwelling and going to Hades.

Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus

I agree.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

I'll give a feeble response

Sheol in the OT is often represented as Hades in the NT. Why? I would think that the Hellenization of Jews who didn't know how to read, write let alone speak Hebrew who were fluent in the LXX.

I just thought of something. Why would an "All-Powerful, All-Knowing God" throw His message to complete idiots(when compared with God), and then expect us to decipher what is God's Truth, only to have the reception of "God's Word" subject to debate?

Bad God!

 

[Grappler]

Notice that there is no mention of "the lake of fire, worm doesn't die, fire is not quenched, everlasting fire, everlasting punishment, smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

It doesn't have too, notice Luke 16:24, the rich man specifically is telling us he is in torment in this flame. He's telling us this!!!

So we can talk to people in Hell???:toofunny

 

[Free]

What about Hades in Luke 16:23. It mentions torment.

That is only one instance out of about eleven and in a context which is not all that clear.

Even so, it's there. It's prophecy that occurs after judgement day.

It certainly has nothing to do with judgement day. I believe this has been told to you several times. It is about the fact that there is no hope for those--referring to at least the Pharisees--who have been unaffected by Moses and the Prophets, as they will also reject the ultimate sign, the rising of someone from the dead. This is Jesus speaking of himself and that those who reject Moses and the Prophets will reject the significance of his death and resurrection.

Notice that there is no mention of "the lake of fire, worm doesn't die, fire is not quenched, everlasting fire, everlasting punishment, smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

It doesn't have too, notice Luke 16:24, the rich man specifically is telling us he is in torment in this flame. He's telling us this!!!

So I must say again that there is absolutely no mention in Luke 16:24 of anything being eternal, worm not dying, fire not being quenched, etc. You are reading meanings into this passage which are not warranted. You are trying to equate hades and gehenna, which is error on your part.

 

[Guest]

It certainly has nothing to do with judgement day. I believe this has been told to you several times. It is about the fact that there is no hope for those--referring to at least the Pharisees--who have been unaffected by Moses and the Prophets, as they will also reject the ultimate sign, the rising of someone from the dead. This is Jesus speaking of himself and that those who reject Moses and the Prophets will reject the significance of his death and resurrection.

Then why does Luke 16:22 say that they both died. Are you paying attention to what scripture is saying? It's speaking about AFTER judgement day AFTER we die and are judged.

It doesn't have too, notice Luke 16:24, the rich man specifically is telling us he is in torment in this flame. He's telling us this!!!So we can talk to people in Hell???

Not we, Grapps. Who was speaking here. JESUS!!!!

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Then why does Luke 16:22 say that they both died. Are you paying attention to what scripture is saying? It's speaking about AFTER judgement day AFTER we die and are judged.

The judgement comes after the Resurrection, please read Revelation 20. These men died and were directly taken to the specific places. Of course I see this as a parable that is allegorical as this would make nonsense theology and clearly has very symbolic representation in the people present to Jesus offering this parable.

 

[Free]

It certainly has nothing to do with judgement day. I believe this has been told to you several times. It is about the fact that there is no hope for those--referring to at least the Pharisees--who have been unaffected by Moses and the Prophets, as they will also reject the ultimate sign, the rising of someone from the dead. This is Jesus speaking of himself and that those who reject Moses and the Prophets will reject the significance of his death and resurrection.

Then why does Luke 16:22 say that they both died. Are you paying attention to what scripture is saying? It's speaking about AFTER judgement day AFTER we die and are judged.

Luke 16 says they both died because well, in this "parable," both of them died. That's what happens to people. It very clearly is not speaking about after Judgement Day since the Rich Man said:

Luk 16:27 And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house—
Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' (ESV)

Very clearly then, if this was after Judgement Day, as you are so adamant in believing, those five brothers would already have been in Hades as well. Or do you think that after judgement some are not in either heaven or Hades and have a chance to choose between eternal life with God or going to Hades? That is exactly what your error here leads to. None of the following makes sense if this after Judgement Day:

Luk 16:27 And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house—
Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.'
Luk 16:29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
Luk 16:30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'" (ESV)

Not once is Hades used to speak of the final punishment of unbelievers. I think at this point you really need to do some study on every instance of Hades and every instance of gehenna, and then come back and report what you find.

 

[Guest]

Then why does Luke 16:22 say that they both died. Are you paying attention to what scripture is saying? It's speaking about AFTER judgement day AFTER we die and are judged.

The judgement comes after the Resurrection, please read Revelation 20. These men died and were directly taken to the specific places. Of course I see this as a parable that is allegorical as this would make nonsense theology and clearly has very symbolic representation in the people present to Jesus offering this parable.

I agree, judgement after resurrection, the righteous and the unrighteous, the begger and the rich man, the saved and the unsaved. The begger was saved, and the rich man wasn't. The begger had faith and followed Romans 10:9. Who was speaking the parable Doulos, JESUS!! How can anybody deny that the words died, buried, hell and torment is in Luke 16 and not know what it means.

It certainly has nothing to do with judgement day. I believe this has been told to you several times. It is about the fact that there is no hope for those--referring to at least the Pharisees--who have been unaffected by Moses and the Prophets, as they will also reject the ultimate sign, the rising of someone from the dead. This is Jesus speaking of himself and that those who reject Moses and the Prophets will reject the significance of his death and resurrection.

Then why does Luke 16:22 say that they both died. Are you paying attention to what scripture is saying? It's speaking about AFTER judgement day AFTER we die and are judged.

Luke 16 says they both died because well, in this "parable," both of them died. That's what happens to people. It very clearly is not speaking about after Judgement Day since the Rich Man said:

Luk 16:27 And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house—
Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' (ESV)

Very clearly then, if this was after Judgement Day, as you are so adamant in believing, those five brothers would already have been in Hades as well. Or do you think that after judgement some are not in either heaven or Hades and have a chance to choose between eternal life with God or going to Hades?

No, he wanted to WARN his brothers. Whether his brothers came to salvation or not, well that's a different thread. You cannot choose your fate after you die, we ALL make the choice to come to Christ in this lifetime ONLY!! Once you die, that's it, you're waiting for judgement and whether you are in the book of life or not! Luke 16 is prophecy about the afterlife that Jesus spoke himself! Who is Jesus??

 

[Free]

It certainly has nothing to do with judgement day. I believe this has been told to you several times. It is about the fact that there is no hope for those--referring to at least the Pharisees--who have been unaffected by Moses and the Prophets, as they will also reject the ultimate sign, the rising of someone from the dead. This is Jesus speaking of himself and that those who reject Moses and the Prophets will reject the significance of his death and resurrection.

Then why does Luke 16:22 say that they both died. Are you paying attention to what scripture is saying? It's speaking about AFTER judgement day AFTER we die and are judged.

Luke 16 says they both died because well, in this "parable," both of them died. That's what happens to people. It very clearly is not speaking about after Judgement Day since the Rich Man said:

Luk 16:27 And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house—
Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' (ESV)

Very clearly then, if this was after Judgement Day, as you are so adamant in believing, those five brothers would already have been in Hades as well. Or do you think that after judgement some are not in either heaven or Hades and have a chance to choose between eternal life with God or going to Hades?

No, he wanted to WARN his brothers. Whether his brothers came to salvation or not, well that's a different thread. You cannot choose your fate after you die, we ALL make the choice to come to Christ in this lifetime ONLY!! Once you die, that's it, you're waiting for judgement and whether you are in the book of life or not!Luke 16 is prophecy about the afterlife that Jesus spoke himself! Who is Jesus??

You very clearly had stated: "Then why does Luke 16:22 say that they both died. Are you paying attention to what scripture is saying? It's speaking about AFTER judgement day AFTER we die and are judged." That was in your post #49 and that is what I was very clearly addressing.

So I ask again: If the passage in question in Luke 16 is "AFTER judgement day," as you have so very clearly stated, how is it that the Rich Man could even say that he wanted to warn his brothers? How? Do you understand that that means it simply cannot be about "AFTER judgement day"? Otherwise his brothers would have either been in heaven or hell and not only could they not be warned, but it would make no sense to even ask for them to be warned since it is too late. Do you understand what I have just said?

 

[jasoncran]

urk , neither sheol nor hades is used as a final judgement after the cross. I say that as we have the final revalation

 

[Guest]

You very clearly had stated: "Then why does Luke 16:22 say that they both died. Are you paying attention to what scripture is saying? It's speaking about AFTER judgement day AFTER we die and are judged." That was in your post #49 and that is what I was very clearly addressing.

So I ask again: If the passage in question in Luke 16 is "AFTER judgement day," as you have so very clearly stated, how is it that the Rich Man could even say that he wanted to warn his brothers? How? Do you understand that that means it simply cannot be about "AFTER judgement day"? Otherwise his brothers would have either been in heaven or hell and not only could they not be warned, but it would make no sense to even ask for them to be warned since it is too late. Do you understand what I have just said?

Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will REPENT. Jesus is speaking to our hearts in Luke 16. We have to study the heart of Jesus to understand this. Jesus is already judging the hearts of the brothers. Scripture is telling us to NEVER be in a situation where Jesus knows you will never repent. At least, that's what I think it means. The rich man wanted his brothers to repent and not end up in hell! Luke 16 is a warning to people to repent. What does scripture tell us about the fate of the five brothers, does it say? Check out Luke 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come! What offences is Jesus referring too here?

urk , neither sheol nor hades is used as a final judgement after the cross. I say that as we have the final revalation

Hades, place of torment is coming after judgement day whether you wanna admit it or not.

 

[jasoncran]

uhm. read revalation 20.

and after the thousand years . death, hades were cast into the gehanna.
im done arguing this stuff. I know what im speaking of.

 

[Guest]

uhm. read revalation 20.

and after the thousand years . death, hades were cast into the gehanna.
im done arguing this stuff. I know what im speaking of.

Oh absolutely, also check out Revelation 20:10, where it mentions the false prophet, torment forever and ever too. You're also ignoring that KJV version says hell and not Hades in Luke 16.

 

[Butch5]

sorry then neither can the case be made heaven is real either.

enoch where is he since he didn't die? what of Elijah?
where were they taken then since they didn't die?

Why do you assume they didn't die?

 

[Butch5]

how does a grave have depths?

I mean if enoch was taken by god. god slew him only to put him to sleep then? or what of Elijah who went into the heaven with the chariots of fire?

It appears the Elijah was back on the earth after that.

 

[Butch5]

Notice that there is no mention of "the lake of fire, worm doesn't die, fire is not quenched, everlasting fire, everlasting punishment, smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

It doesn't have too, notice Luke 16:24, the rich man specifically is telling us he is in torment in this flame. He's telling us this!!!

That was addressed in Posts 24 and 25.