Have you heard the Gospel?

[Free]

Thank you for the detailed message with many good references.

Why didn't you address any of them?

Yes, we read in the Bible that on the one hand believers continue to sin, but on the other hand they have been set free from sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:8-10).

There in only one possible explanations for 1 John 1:8-10, that I can see. It is given best by Wuest's translation:

1Jn 1:8 (8-10) If we say that sin we are not having, ourselves we are leading astray, and the truth is not in us. If we continue to confess our sins, faithful is He and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from every unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned and are now in a state where we do not sin, a liar we are making Him, and His word is not in us.

Believers clearly sin, which is why they must continually confess their sins. Again, this is also supported by 2:1.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God (1 John 3:9).

This sounds like a contradiction, and Christian theologians have been trying to explain it for centuries.

This contradiction can only be explained by understanding Yahweh's purpose. He reflected the spiritual through the physical (Romans 1:19,20). Therefore, spiritual birth (birth from God leading to sinlessness according to John) can be understood through the physical birth of a child. The birth of a child goes through 3 stages (following the pattern of the Tabernacle): fertilization, intrauterine development, and birth into the world. Note that miscarriages can occur during intrauterine development, for example, if the mother abuses alcohol. In spiritual birth, a person hears and receives the Word of Truth (fertilization), grows and is formed in knowledge (intrauterine development), and begins to live spiritually on his own when Yahweh reveals truth or gives him spiritual understanding (spiritual birth). This process is described in the Savior's parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23).

There in only two possible explanations for 1 John 3:9, that I can see. First is the translation as given by the ESV and other translations:

1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. (ESV)

That is based on a possibility of the Greek grammar. It is not saying that believers cannot sin, but that they will not live a life characterized by willful, unrepentant sin. John, like other writers in the NT, is providing the ideal that Christians are to strive for, but sinless perfection is never mentioned as a possible attainment in this life. Even if one wants to dispute that translation, John has already said believers sin, in 1:9 and 2:1, and then again says that believers sin in 5:16.

Second, also based on the Greek grammar, it could mean that when a believer sins, and they do, as John states, then they cease to "abide in Christ." Hence the need for the believer to confess their sins as John stated in 1:9 for forgiveness and cleansing, and are brought back into proper fellowship with him. Note that that in no way whatsoever means that a believer ceases to be saved; that is fixed.

Just as when a child disobeys their parents, does this mean the child is no longer theirs or no longer loved by them? Of course not. But, it does mean the relationship is strained, and it will remain so until the child confesses and seeks forgiveness.

From this we see that there are 2 groups of believers. Those who understand - they were born and cannot give up God or go back to their mother's womb (John 3:3,4) and do not sin. Those who are not yet spiritually mature and are in the “spiritual womb” can refuse God and not be born Spiritually (2 Peter 2:20) and continue to sin.

Two major issues with this. First, if a person is not born spiritually, they are, by definition, not a believer. So, you have only given one group. Second, there is nothing in the NT that states unequivocally that believers never sin. The entire NT, as I have pointed out, deals with the sin of believers, even Peter's.

Of course, there is also a large group of people who think they believe in the Truth, but have not heard the Truth, but believe in interpretations and traditions.

Yes, of course.

 

[Free]

More detailed explanation with more witnesses is in this lecture which includes a PowerPoint presentation (from 1hr23min until 2hr02min):

There is some bad theology in there.

 

[JLB]

I specifically asked about the witnesses of the death, burial and resurrection

Psalm 22

 

[live2blive]

Psalm 22

Psalm 22 definitely prophesized about the sufferings of Yahshua on the cross, but not about the death, burial and resurrection on the 3rd day.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Rom 6:11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.
Rom 6:13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. (ESV)
Why command those things if Christians automatically don't sin, which would make those commands meaningless?

Christians need to grow in grace and knowledge too.
Besides, not everyone who reads the bible is a Christ follower.

Who are the lazy and in what way will they fall?

The lazy are those who think their future is assured, and they grow lax in keeping themselves holy.
Or, they may just be too lazy to keep reading, praying, and studying.

Bu why are exhortations and admonitions necessary in the first place if we no longer sin?

They are needed, to keep God's children focused on the battle raging around them.
"No longer sinning", is a choice.
And that choice may have to be met dozens of times a day.

Exactly, which is in part why Christians still struggle with sin. But, if a believer cannot sin, then Satan's attempts are pointless, and he would know that.

Christians don't struggle with sin, they struggle with temptation.
The devil's attempts to get us to choose "flesh" over Spirit are not always unsuccessful.
He/it will keep on sniping at us until our vessel fades out.

Not now, no. However, back then? Your statement, which seems to be an obvious workaround for the obvious dealings of sin in Paul's letters (and the rest of the NT), misses the obvious--Paul's letters were written to churches and individual believers. Their primary, and perhaps even sole, original audience was believers.

If Ananias and Sapphira had the book of Galatians, or Romans, they may not have turned away from God.
Paul's letters were a source of guidance for the local pastors and deacons.
And a means of identifying who actually loves or hates God.
Especially 1 John.

But, again, commanding believers to stop sinning and to be holy, is pointless if believers don't sin and are perfectly holy.

The letters of the apostles were our NT guide book.
They were as poignant then as they are today.
And necessary in order for all the congregations to have the same mind on matters.
Telling ex-sinners not to sin may seem pointless, but by the grace of God, cements the new church's identity as "in Christ"...in Whom is no sin.
"We" are different from the "churches" of the world, and from the Jews of the writer's time.
Besides, more than just the lovers of God are reading the bible today.
There were posers trying to infiltrate the church back then too.
Those who disregarded the letters of Paul and John etc. could be identified, and cast out before the whole were leavened.

Yes, God is gracious, but once again, when it comes to someone who thinks they're a believer and claims to be without sin, God says they're self-deceived, do not have the truth, make him a liar, and don't have his word in them.

It is those who commit sin that cannot honestly say they have no sin.
Neither can they say they have fellowship with Him, or that they know Him.
Those who walk in God can say they have no sin, as being pure and holy are necessary to even be in Him.
They can also say they have fellowship with Him, (1 John 1:5), and that they know Him. (1 John 2:3)

 

[Hopeful 2]

The fact is that you have never met another human being on earth who does not commit sin .

You must be misreading my testimony.

How would you know the heart of another ?
Only God Himself knows that.

True, but living and working along side them also provided the basis of my faith that God had made a way to remain "in Him".
It is those outside of Christ that commit sin.

 

[Consecrated Life]

You must be misreading my testimony.

True, but living and working along side them also provided the basis of my faith that God had made a way to remain "in Him".
It is those outside of Christ that commit sin.

"True" is the fact that you have never met and never will meet another person on earth who commits no sin ,
"working" along the goodest of do gooders is no basis for any such claim .

Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

 

[live2blive]

Why didn't you address any of them?

I did address all of them as a whole.

There in only one possible explanations for 1 John 1:8-10, that I can see. It is given best by Wuest's translation:

Believers clearly sin, which is why they must continually confess their sins. Again, this is also supported by 2:1.

Not all believers are the same. Some are born again, some not (e.g., Luke 8:13).

There in only two possible explanations for 1 John 3:9, that I can see.

I gave another explanation which goes according to the witnesses in the Law and Prophets (Isaiah 8:20) and the tabernacle pattern (Hebrews 8:5).

Just as when a child disobeys their parents, does this mean the child is no longer theirs or no longer loved by them? Of course not. But, it does mean the relationship is strained, and it will remain so until the child confesses and seeks forgiveness.

This is a good example. Let me give another one. A little child can steal a cookie from a cookie jar or pee on the floor. When this child grows up, he/she does not do these "sins" because he/she is a new creature (adult).

Two major issues with this. First, if a person is not born spiritually, they are, by definition, not a believer.

This is not the defenition of the believer. People can believe and not be born spiritually (e.g., Luke 8:13).

 

[live2blive]

There is some bad theology in there.

I did not find any bad/wrong theology there.

 

[Free]

Christians need to grow in grace and knowledge too.

What do you mean by "grow in grace" and why is it necessary? Why do Christians need to grow in knowledge and what happens if they don't?

Besides, not everyone who reads the bible is a Christ follower.

What does this have to do with what I posted?

The lazy are those who think their future is assured, and they grow lax in keeping themselves holy.

So, these are believers whose future isn't assured?

They are needed, to keep God's children focused on the battle raging around them.
"No longer sinning", is a choice.
And that choice may have to be met dozens of times a day.

Believers have to choose everyday, even dozens of times a day, whether or not they will sin?

Christians don't struggle with sin, they struggle with temptation.

And, as I have previously given from Hebrews, who was the only one to struggle with temptation but remain without sin?

The devil's attempts to get us to choose "flesh" over Spirit are not always unsuccessful.

But sometimes they are?

If Ananias and Sapphira had the book of Galatians, or Romans, they may not have turned away from God.

It would be best to no even speculate on this. However, they were saved, were they not? If they "turned away from God," doesn't that mean they were with God and counted among the believers? Yet, they sinned. They died for lying to God, so imagine what could happen to those who make God a liar, which is blasphemous.

Paul's letters were a source of guidance for the local pastors and deacons.
And a means of identifying who actually loves or hates God.
Especially 1 John.

In part, yes, and John says that those who love God will continue to confess their sins. But, again, all the commands and warnings for believers to not sin and to stop sinning are meaningless if believers automatically stop sinning upon justification.

The letters of the apostles were our NT guide book.
They were as poignant then as they are today.
And necessary in order for all the congregations to have the same mind on matters.
Telling ex-sinners not to sin may seem pointless, but by the grace of God, cements the new church's identity as "in Christ"...in Whom is no sin.
"We" are different from the "churches" of the world, and from the Jews of the writer's time.
Besides, more than just the lovers of God are reading the bible today.
There were posers trying to infiltrate the church back then too.
Those who disregarded the letters of Paul and John etc. could be identified, and cast out before the whole were leavened.

Yet, the letters were written to believers and commanding them not to sin any longer. Again, that is meaningless if believers automatically stop sinning.

It is those who commit sin that cannot honestly say they have no sin.

Exactly, and that is written to believers. Those who profess to be believers but claim to have not sin cannot be true believers. That is John's point.

Neither can they say they have fellowship with Him, or that they know Him.

For those who have never repented and put their faith in Christ in the first place, yes. Those who have, and are justified in Christ, but struggle with sin, can say they know him, but their fellowship is hampered until they confess their sin.

Those who walk in God can say they have no sin, as being pure and holy are necessary to even be in Him.

No, they can't. John says such a person is self-deceived, doesn't have the truth, makes God a liar, and doesn't have his word in them.

They can also say they have fellowship with Him, (1 John 1:5), and that they know Him. (1 John 2:3)

Yes, based on their standing in Christ first and foremost, but also when they continue to repent of their sins.

 

[Free]

I did address all of them as a whole.

Simply posting a response isn't really addressing the verses and points being made. You simply pitted Scripture against itself by ignoring what I posted and so posted verses out of context.

Not all believers are the same. Some are born again, some not (e.g., Luke 8:13).

There is no such thing as a non-born-again believer; that is an unbeliever. A believer, in the NT use of the word, is someone who is saved, which means they are born again, by definition (John 3:3-8).

I gave another explanation which goes according to the witnesses in the Law and Prophets (Isaiah 8:20) and the tabernacle pattern (Hebrews 8:5).

Where?

This is a good example. Let me give another one. A little child can steal a cookie from a cookie jar or pee on the floor. When this child grows up, he/she does not do these "sins" because he/she is a new creature (adult).

How does this address my point?

This is not the defenition of the believer. People can believe and not be born spiritually (e.g., Luke 8:13).

Believe what and how?

 

[Hopeful 2]

"True" is the fact that you have never met and never will meet another person on earth who commits no sin ,
"working" along the goodest of do gooders is no basis for any such claim .

Now you are making thing s up.
It is true that I can't see the heart of another.
But I can see when men refuse to give in to temptation.

Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

You do realize, I hope, that Jesus was talking to men who had no choice but to walk in and after the "flesh".
Now, in the NT, we have a choice, and can walk in and after the Spirit !
The men and women that I fellowshipped with made that choice: and so do I.

Are you saying that you are still evil ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

What do you mean by "grow in grace" and why is it necessary? Why do Christians need to grow in knowledge and what happens if they don't?

Peter commands it in 2 Peter 3:17-18.
If they don't grow, they die.

What does this have to do with what I posted?

You err thinking everyone who reads scripture loves God and will obey Him.
The writer's commands may steer some to actual obedience to God.

So, these are believers whose future isn't assured?

Nobody's future is assured, as the war for men's souls doesn't end at their conversion.

Believers have to choose everyday, even dozens of times a day, whether or not they will sin?

Yes.

And, as I have previously given from Hebrews, who was the only one to struggle with temptation but remain without sin?

Jesus, our example, was the first.

But sometimes they are?

They are for the weak.

It would be best to no even speculate on this.

I think it would be a terrible idea to ignore this example of posers in the midst of the flock !

However, they were saved, were they not?

No.

If they "turned away from God," doesn't that mean they were with God and counted among the believers?

Not at all.
Their initial repentance from sin was shown to be a lie to God, and no liar is in Christ,

Yet, they sinned. They died for lying to God, so imagine what could happen to those who make God a liar, which is blasphemous.

New topic ?

In part, yes, and John says that those who love God will continue to confess their sins.

No, as if they had loved God they would not have committed their sin in the first place.

But, again, all the commands and warnings for believers to not sin and to stop sinning are meaningless if believers automatically stop sinning upon justification.

Mentioning two different conditions in disingenuous
Exhortations and admonissions to keep from sin are for the sinless.
Exhortations and admonissions to quit sinning are for those considering conversion.

Yet, the letters were written to believers and commanding them not to sin any longer..

The believers had already ceased from sin.
It was those on the cusp of conversion that needed to hear the "quit sinning" messages.

Again, that is meaningless if believers automatically stop sinning.

It wasn't just believers who heard the messages from the apostles.
I was not a believer when I first heard and read them, and they pointed me in the direction I should go.
It was part of the cost Jesus spoke of in Luke 14:28.

Exactly, and that is written to believers. Those who profess to be believers but claim to have not sin cannot be true believers. That is John's point.

It was written to believers about unbelievers.
Both those who walk in God, and those who walk in sin are mentioned in 1 John 1.
John provided the means of telling them apart.

For those who have never repented and put their faith in Christ in the first place, yes. Those who have, and are justified in Christ, but struggle with sin, can say they know him, but their fellowship is hampered until they confess their sin.

If they are still struggling with sin, (not temptation), it is apparent they have not repented yet.
They are not justified, and have no fellowship with He whom they know not.

No, they can't. John says such a person is self-deceived, doesn't have the truth, makes God a liar, and doesn't have his word in them.

You seem to have a real hard time differentiating between those walking in light and those walking in sin.
If there is no sin in God, who is the light, there can't be any sin in those who walk in Him.

Yes, based on their standing in Christ first and foremost, but also when they continue to repent of their sins.

Each additional repentance shows the prior repentance from sin was a lie to God.
Sinners walk in darkness.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Now you are making thing s up.
It is true that I can't see the heart of another.
But I can see when men refuse to give in to temptation.

According to Jesus more sin occurs in the confines of the dark of the heart than any other place.
Your knowledge of what exactly is sin is very limited .
Secret sin on earth is open scandal in heaven.
Demonstrating you are not even aware what Jesus calls sin is not helping you make you case .

Mat 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

 

[Hopeful 2]

According to Jesus more sin occurs in the confines of the dark of the heart than any other place.
Your knowledge of what exactly is sin is very limited .
Secret sin on earth is open scandal in heaven.
Demonstrating you are not even aware what Jesus calls sin is not helping you make you case .

Mat 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

I use John's 1 John 5:17 definition for sin..."All unrighteousness is sin:..."
Lusting wickedly after anyone, is sin.

 

[Consecrated Life]

I use John's 1 John 5:17 definition for sin..."All unrighteousness is sin:..."
Lusting wickedly after anyone, is sin.

You said you can "SEE" those men and women who never commit sin .

I learned that I could be...had to be sinless, from other sinless men, and women.

How do you see the lust of another persons heart, that the Almighty all knowing omnipresent God has declared He alone sees ?

Psalm 44:21
Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

 

[live2blive]

Simply posting a response isn't really addressing the verses and points being made. You simply pitted Scripture against itself by ignoring what I posted and so posted verses out of context.

You provided several verses which state that the believers can sin. I addressed this point and tried to explain that not all believers are born again.

There is no such thing as a non-born-again believer; that is an unbeliever. A believer, in the NT use of the word, is someone who is saved, which means they are born again, by definition (John 3:3-8).

I provided the reference (Luke 8:13) showing that one can believe and not be born again or saved, but you did not address it.

How does this address my point?

This was an example of different stages of believers: child ("sin") and adult ("don't sin").

 

[Hopeful 2]

You said you can "SEE" those men and women who never commit sin .

Yes, as it would be difficult to work and fellowship with folks I cannot see.

How do you see the lust of another persons heart, that the Almighty all knowing omnipresent God has declared He alone sees ?

Psalm 44:21
Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

I cannot "see" a person's heart, but their behavior is clearly visible.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Psalm 44:21
Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

​

Yes, as it would be difficult to work and fellowship with folks I cannot see.

I cannot "see" a person's heart, but their behavior is clearly visible.

God says He alone sees the SINS in the thoughts and desires of heart.
You now admit that you can't see those sins. " I cannot "see" a person's heart" -Hopeful ,
Why have you never said that only God can see the sins of another persons thoughts and desires of the heart until now ?


Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts.

 

[Hopeful 2]

God says He alone sees the SINS in the thoughts and desires of heart.
You now admit what you can't see those sins. " I cannot "see" a person's heart" -Hopeful ,
Why have you never said that only God can see the sins of another persons thoughts and desires of the heart until now ?

Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts.

I can, however, see their obedient behavior.