Bible Study Help, please! So confused…

[Adelaide]

God did not predestine the man, but only made man in His image of love that we would be holy and without blame. What God predestined was the plan of His salvation through Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:1-14, for since the time of Adam all have fallen short of the glory of the Lord by the choices they make by being taught what is good and what is evil.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word preached to them, but yet many refuse to accept the word of God by their own choice.

If he predestined his plan of salvation for man, that included the fall of man. How is that not man being predestined?

And how is there any choices being made from free will when everything ever has been known by God and destined to be the way it is?

 

[jerry63935]

i dont think your as confused as you say. your post shows somethings

 

[Adelaide]

It's not even about the tree, but that God gave a commandment not to eat from it or else there would be consequences for doing so and both Adam and Eve knew what God said. It's like telling a child not to touch the hot stove or they will get burnt, but the child touches it anyway and now pays the consequence for their action. They defied what God said and what they had in the garden was now closed up to them and they had to make their own life living off the land working for their food.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

If I made a perfect paradise for my children I’d choose to have not to have stoves that could burn them. Or anything that could harm them…

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So surely EVERYONE must twist the words to fit their own theology because EVERYONE has preconceived ideas of how it should be. Who actually has the perfect, exact truth then?

This is quite common but it’s not universal. There are a few who DON’T twist things to support a pre-selected view. There are a few who want the truth, cost them what it may. There are a few teachable people.

If God is sovereign, then he knew what Satan was to become. If he already knows the choices that are going to be made, is this really free will?

Knowing what another will choose is not a matter of foreknowledge but wisdom or insight. We’re in the season of buying presents and sometimes one buys something KNOWING the other will like it. Was the recipients free will not then free because they liked it as suspected?

He created them to make these choices…

He created them to make free choices.

That’s the point- it’s obviously not simple and never will be. Not to those who want more understanding.

Well, like many subjects, it’s not initially simple but with increased understanding it becomes simple.

And these 5000 religions would say the same about Christianity and claim they know the truth and it’s plain to see.

Christianity might be the least simple of faiths because God is not simple. But on the entry level
it’s quite simple.

 

[Adelaide]

i dont think your as confused as you say. your post shows somethings

I try to think things through to their logical conclusion and I’ve found that’s never not been helpful.
I admit I’m not as confused as I used to be.

 

[jerry63935]

I admit I’m not as confused as I used to be.

i read them line of questions .soon realized .if you really want to learn the truth study it out. i know a old time preacher man. that doesn't have a good education.. but he knows the bible

 

[Adelaide]

This is quite common but it’s not universal. There are a few who DON’T twist things to support a pre-selected view. There are a few who want the truth, cost them what it may. There are a few teachable people.

Knowing what another will choose is not a matter of foreknowledge but wisdom or insight. We’re in the season of buying presents and sometimes one buys something KNOWING the other will like it. Was the recipients free will not then free because they liked it as suspected?

He created them to make free choices.

Well, like many subjects, it’s not initially simple but with increased understanding it becomes simple.

Christianity might be the least simple of faiths because God is not simple. But on the entry level
it’s quite simple.

That simply can’t be true! Is anyone completely resistant to the devil? Is anyone exempt from their own pre-selected views? If we’re talking about teachable people then let’s talk about the followers of Jim Jones…

Knowing what one will like for a present is hardly the same as creating an entire scenario where you already know the outcome because you know everything and control everything.

Nothing is ever that simple. Is the concept of hell simple? Permanent separation from God that results in eternal torture? I’m going to assume you absolutely believe in it.

My dad was raised in a devoted, church-going, Bible reading, God fearing Christian family. He has studied the Bible since he was baptized as a kid, but more devotedly as an adult. I when he was in his 50’s he reached the conclusion, after SO much studying, that there is no hell. That ultimately, ALL are redeemed.

This is a HUGE discrepancy! Life altering for those who believe it or don’t. Yet you can’t possibly tell me my father is wrong. He’s studied the same scriptures you have and that man spends more time in prayer and meditation than anyone else I’ve ever known. He’s only ever been on a mission to serve his God with every fiber of his being and every ounce of his know-how.

It seems the opposite to me- with increased understanding it becomes FAR less simple.

 

[Adelaide]

well if the o.p was is confused just think how confused they are now.

 

[jerry63935]

That simply can’t be true! Is anyone completely resistant to the devil? Is anyone exempt from their own pre-selected views? If we’re talking about teachable people then let’s talk about the followers of Jim Jones…

Knowing what one will like for a present is hardly the same as creating an entire scenario where you already know the outcome because you know everything and control everything.

Nothing is ever that simple. Is the concept of hell simple? Permanent separation from God that results in eternal torture? I’m going to assume you absolutely believe in it.

My dad was raised in a devoted, church-going, Bible reading, God fearing Christian family. He has studied the Bible since he was baptized as a kid, but more devotedly as an adult. I when he was in his 50’s he reached the conclusion, after SO much studying, that there is no hell. That ultimately, ALL are redeemed.

This is a HUGE discrepancy! Life altering for those who believe it or don’t. Yet you can’t possibly tell me my father is wrong. He’s studied the same scriptures you have and that man spends more time in prayer and meditation than anyone else I’ve ever known. He’s only ever been on a mission to serve his God with every fiber of his being and every ounce of his know-how.

It seems the opposite to me- with increased understanding it becomes FAR less simple.

hmm interesting

 

[Adelaide]

The warning not to eat the forbidden fruit was a simple order that they should have had no problem obeying as we can be sure that the Garden contained a superabundance of gorgeous fruit.
It is possible that GOD had already realised Lucifer aka Satan was jealous of Adam and Eve and had already decided to sin by conceiving the idea of tricking Eve into eating the fruit and the warning was to test if they would be tricked or not.
WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW AS A RECENT BELIEVER THAT EVERYONE (EXCEPT THE RAPTUREES) HAS TO DIE THEIR FIRST DEATH AND GO INTO THEIR GRAVE. BUT ON JUDGMENT DAY ALL THE DEAD WILL BE RESURRECTED TO DISCOVER IF THEIR NAMES ARE IN THE BOOK OF LIFE IN WHICH CASE THEY WILL LIVE A WONDERFUL LIFE ON EARTH WITH JESUS AND IF NOT IN THE BOOK THEY WILL BE INSTANTLY PERMANENTLY DESTROYED AND DIE THE SECOND PERMANENT DEATH.
Forget all the nonsense you have heard about heaven and hell as there is no hell except for Satan and no heaven for humans in this first life or the second one.
We are humans and are designed to live on Earth.
Make sure you look forward to surviving Armageddon and being lifted off Earth as the atom bombs fly to destroy everything.

Can you show me the verses that speak of this directly?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That simply can’t be true! Is anyone completely resistant to the devil? Is anyone exempt from their own pre-selected views? If we’re talking about teachable people then let’s talk about the followers of Jim Jones…

Teachable is definitely not gullible. Those people were the opposite of what I describe. They DIDN’T want the truth.

But there are those who do. It’s true. They’re just rare. What does the Devil have to do with this?

Knowing what one will like for a present is hardly the same as creating an entire scenario where you already know the outcome because you know everything and control everything.

What’s the difference?

Nothing is ever that simple. Is the concept of hell simple? Permanent separation from God that results in eternal torture? I’m going to assume you absolutely believe in it.

I do and it’s simple. What do you find difficult?

My dad was raised in a devoted, church-going, Bible reading, God fearing Christian family. He has studied the Bible since he was baptized as a kid, but more devotedly as an adult. I when he was in his 50’s he reached the conclusion, after SO much studying, that there is no hell. That ultimately, ALL are redeemed.

With all respect due to your Dad, he had to ignore or disbelieve Jesus then.

This is a HUGE discrepancy! Life altering for those who believe it or don’t. Yet you can’t possibly tell me my father is wrong.

Yes I can. He is wrong.

He’s studied the same scriptures you have and that man spends more time in prayer and meditation than anyone else I’ve ever known. He’s only ever been on a mission to serve his God with every fiber of his being and every ounce of his know-how.

Then how does he reject what Jesus says? Ask him to supply chapters where Jesus says there’s no hell. I can only believe he is a good man. Sounds like a great Dad. But there are famous theologians who learned the ancient languages and studied the scriptures their whole lives who were essentially atheists.

It seems the opposite to me- with increased understanding it becomes FAR less simple.

Understanding God and the ways of God don’t come through studying the scriptures alone. One must have a relationship with Christ whereby He is allowed to teach one. In addition, God has to open up the mind to the truth. This is called renewing the mind.

 

[jerry63935]

Can you show me the verses that speak of this directly?

no they cant

 

[Adelaide]

Teachable is definitely not gullible. Those people were the opposite of what I describe. They DIDN’T want the truth.

But there are those who do. It’s true. They’re just rare. What does the Devil have to do with this?

What’s the difference?

I do and it’s simple. What do you find difficult?

With all respect due to your Dad, he had to ignore or disbelieve Jesus then.

Yes I can. He is wrong.

Then how does he reject what Jesus says? Ask him to supply chapters where Jesus says there’s no hell. I can only believe he is a good man. Sounds like a great Dad. But there are famous theologians who learned the ancient languages and studied the scriptures their whole lives who were essentially atheists.

Understanding God and the ways of God don’t come through studying the scriptures alone. One must have a relationship with Christ whereby He is allowed to teach one. In addition, God has to open up the mind to the truth. This is called renewing the mind.

I’m sorry, but if I’m being honest you’re not very good at having reasonable discussions. To simply say “yes I can. he is wrong.” is a discredit to your beliefs and a poor argument.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I’m sorry, but if I’m being honest you’re not very good at having reasonable discussions. To simply say “yes I can. he is wrong.” is a discredit to your beliefs and a poor argument.

I thought it was kind of funny but probably offended you.

Actually I’m excellent at reasonable discussions which is why you don’t want to talk with me. You are afraid you’ll be shown to be in error so it’s easier to insult.

This is the response of all who don’t want the truth. When they hear what they don’t like and cannot refute, they lob an insult and run off.

I repeat, there are a few who want the truth. They stay in a discussion where they can learn and be corrected or find their own understanding solid.

You probably won’t be able to deal with your Dad being mistaken so I don’t see how you will come to understand with that prerequisite.

 

[Adelaide]

I thought it was kind of funny but probably offended you.

Actually I’m excellent at reasonable discussions which is why you don’t want to talk with me. You are afraid you’ll be shown to be in error so it’s easier to insult.

This is the response of all who don’t want the truth. When they hear what they don’t like and cannot refute, they lob an insult and run off.

I repeat, there are a few who want the truth. They stay in a discussion where they can learn and be corrected or find their own understanding solid.

You probably won’t be able to deal with your Dad being mistaken so I don’t see how you will come to understand with that prerequisite.

I’m willing to bet I’m not the only one on here who finds you absolutely unreasonable.

 

[jerry63935]

I repeat, there are a few who want the truth. They stay in a discussion where they can learn and be corrected or find their own understanding solid.

where does that leave you ? a sheep who is justified simply because that is the only way to heaven. or a goat?

 

[Free]

Well, it seems to me it’d just be exactly what he created to begin with. It was paradise, right? Utopia? That’s not forced- at least it wouldn’t be as his creation ever knew it. That’s just blissful ignorance. And if he’s love incarnate, what’s not to love about a gorgeous garden filled with amazing animals, eternal life, a mate made from your own rib, and a god you can walk and talk with?

Here is another view well worth reading:

https://www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew-Adam-Eve-sin.html

These things aren't easy, I'll admit, but that is why they are worth studying and discussing.

 

[Free]

Please keep this discussion on topic and leave out personal remarks.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Why do you think that? You’re incorrect. Vengeance on those Jews who crucified him was done in 70 AD.

Christians never sought vengence against Jews (or anyone else.)
When Jesus ascended to the Throne, he sat down. We both know what that means.
The Word of God sought vengence on many unrepentant sinners, before he was born on earth.
God has never changed. Even as Christ has shown all humanity how merciful he is,

God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Rom.5:8

It's an awe inspiring thing to apply that to myself. To think that my sin is no different from the sin of slapping Jesus in the face, or spitting on him. He died "while we were yet sinners".....in other words, while men were sinning against him!
When I think of the strength of our Savior doing that, it's mind blowing. I would have killed them. That's how weak and filthy I am.

No, it wasn’t built in. That came later. It’s built in all his descendants however.

Those are two different matters.

There’s is no evolving morals. None. No pathway, no possibility.

I'm no expert or fan of evolution. The rest isn't complicated to me. In short, I believe the "imparted" knowledge of good and evil is that sin is really against God. Imo, it should be no mystery to a follower of Christ, because the ills of this world are a spiritual mattee.

 

[Adelaide]

Here is another view well worth reading:

https://www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew-Adam-Eve-sin.html

These things aren't easy, I'll admit, but that is why they are worth studying and discussing.

In my scenario, he creates a garden utopia of unending love and bliss.

In reality, he created that exact thing, but with a built in fatal flaw that he knew would be implemented, to ultimately bring himself glory.

‘God foresaw Adam and Eve’s fall. He created them anyway, in His own image, to bring glory to Himself. They were given freedom to make choices. Even though they chose to disobey, their choice became the means by which God’s ultimate will was carried out and by which His full glory will be seen.’

Why did he need to do all that? If he’s God, why couldn’t he just reveal his full glory in a much simpler way?

Imagine my scenario again- paradise. And imagine that he simply imparts to them or infuses them with the fullness of his glory and suddenly they’re worshiping him for all eternity. I mean, I’m no god, but in my scenario the deity is worshipped forever in perfect harmony with beings that never knew a moment of death or suffering.