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Orthodoxy,

I am Catholic and I don't know that much about the Orthodox Church. My understanding is that there is a difference over primacy of leadership between Catholic and Orthodox churches and that the Schism in 1054 centred around the filioque additon to the Creed, which the Orthodox saw as being in violation of the Council of Nicaea. It seems to me also that the Orthodox believe in the primacy of the General Council over the Pope. There was a long build up of tension prior to the Schism, I believe.

I see the Catholic Church as the true Church because the Pope represents Peter who was given primacy, and was also given the keys to the kingdom, by Jesus. I see that this is witnessed to by the unity observed in the Catholic Church and also by the fact that the General Councils continued after the split only in the Catholic Church.

Does the Orthodox Church display this unity in doctrine and leadership? Why should the General Councils end after the Schism (or have they continued in your view in your own church?)

I find it an interesting topic, but I am not overly concerned about the Schism, as I think our beliefs are pretty similar, at least over the major issues.
 
Regarding the filioque, I think there is a misunderstanding as to what Catholics believe. St Augustine believed in it, saying that the Father is the Origin of the Godhead and that He gives the Son the capacity to bestow the Spirit in union with Him. It is not a double-source, but a double procession. This maintains the relational distinctions within the Godhead, as held by the Cappadocian Fathers, by clarifying the Son and Spirit's relationship. Gregory of Nyssa said the Spirit proceeds through the Son, which hints at the filioque.

Here is an explanation of the difference, paraphrased from one of my coursebooks:

Greek for ‘proceed’ (ekporeuomai, from Jn.15:26) had different shades of meaning from Latin procedo. The Greeks, in saying the Spirit proceeds from the Father, meant that the Father is source of the Godhead, which didn’t rule out Gregory of Nyssa’s role of the Son. To say that the Spirit proceeded from the Son, implied to them an independent source of Godhead.

Latin’s used procedo in a wider way, which allowed for the Son proceeding from the Father (Jn.8:42, where Latin procedo translates Gk. exerchomai) and speak of the Spirit proceeding from the Son while denying He is an independent source of the Godhead.

So, Eastern and Western traditions are not essentially contradictory (recognised by St Maximus the Confessor in a letter to a priest of Cyprus (645/646)), referring to the Western claim that both Roman Fathers and St. Cyril of Alexandria support the procession of the Spirit from the Son: they do not mean to show that the Son makes Himself the Cause or Author of the Spirit. Rather they recognise the Father as the one Cause and Author of the Son and of the Spirit; of One by means of generation; and of the other by means of ekporeusis. But they would show that [the Spirit] comes forth through Him [the Son], and by the same token demonstrates the union of Being [between Father and Son] and the lack of difference between Them.
 
I tend to agree more the timeline from the book of Revelation that the Seven Churchs represent the Seven Ages of the Church after Christs coming....


Ephesus--The Loveless Church--The church that crucified Christ
Smyyrna- The Persecuted Church--The church persecuted by the Romans
Pergamos--The Compromising Church--The church that became adopted paganism to become 'popular' with Rome
Thyatira--The Corrupt Church--The Church of the Middle Ages that that preached Faith by Works
Sardis-The Dead Church-- What the Church of the Middle Ages eventually became because of its corruption
Philadelphia---The Faithful Church-- The Church of the Reformation in the 1600's to 1800's
Laodicea--The Luke-Warm Church--- The modern Church, where people go to be bored on Sunday because 'its the thing to do'. (or else it is the place to go to play "Bingo")

Thus, the current age we are living in (Luke-warm, Laodicea Age) is the last before Christ's second coming.
 
Tobael,

I am Catholic and I don't know that much about the Orthodox Church. My understanding is that there is a difference over primacy of leadership between Catholic and Orthodox churches and that the Schism in 1054 centred around the filioque additon to the Creed, which the Orthodox saw as being in violation of the Council of Nicaea. It seems to me also that the Orthodox believe in the primacy of the General Council over the Pope. There was a long build up of tension prior to the Schism, I believe.

I am not suprized you know nearly nothing about the Holy Orthodox Church. My wife was raised in the RCC and she had no clue about the orthodox faith either. The RCC basically ignores us or lies about what we believe and they attempt to explain that we really believe what the RCC says but we are to stubborn to admit it. Fact is the Roman Church confessed the HS proceeds from the Father for a good 300 years before the theology even raised its ugly head. We did not change a thing, you guys did with out any authority what so ever and certainly no agreement in the entire Church. Read the councils of the Church.


The Council Of Ephesus - 431 A.D.
It is not permitted to produce or write or compose any other creed except the one which was defined by the holy fathers who were gathered together in the holy Spirit at Nicaea. Any who dare to compose or bring forth or produce another creed for the benefit of those who wish to turn from Hellenism or Judaism or some other heresy to the knowledge of the truth, if they are bishops or clerics they should be deprived of their respective charges and if they are laymen they are to be anathematised.

The Council of Chalcedon - 451 AD
The sacred and great and universal synod by God's grace and by decree of your most religious and Christ-loving emperors Valentinian Augustus and Marcian Augustus assembled in Chalcedon, metropolis of the province of Bithynia, in the shrine of the saintly and triumphant martyr Euphemia, issues the following decrees…… Since we have formulated these things with all possible accuracy and attention, the sacred and universal synod decreed that no one is permitted to produce, or even to write down or compose, any other creed or to think or teach otherwise. As for those who dare either to compose another creed or even to promulgate or teach or hand down another creed for those who wish to convert to a recognition of the truth from Hellenism or from Judaism, or from any kind of heresy at all: if they be bishops or clerics, the bishops are to be deposed from the episcopacy and the clerics from the clergy; if they be monks or layfolk, they are to be anathematised.

The Roman bishop agreed to these provisions of the Councils. Why the change? Who is bringing a "different Jesus" to the table over the one that has always been believed by even your roman Church?

I see the Catholic Church as the true Church because the Pope represents Peter who was given primacy, and was also given the keys to the kingdom, by Jesus. I see that this is witnessed to by the unity observed in the Catholic Church and also by the fact that the General Councils continued after the split only in the Catholic Church.

John 13:13-16, Jesus says, Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Here Jesus, after washing the feet of Peter who told Jesus he would never allow Jesus to wash his feet, tells ALL the disciples they must be servants of each other not lord not head over the others. Peter was plainly told here by Jesus he is not the head of the Church if he is not a servant to the entire Church. Peter is chief among equals not chief over the others. Frankly Peter was arrogant and brutish. The Roman Church still displays the brutality and arrogance of Peter. The verse stating Peter is the Rock (Matthew 16:18) is a reflective pronoun used by Jesus to say He (Jesus) is the Rock and Peter is the foundation along with the other Apostles that the Church was built on. The Orthodox dont deny the leadership of Peter's see if he is a servant and not a lord.


Does the Orthodox Church display this unity in doctrine and leadership?

Yes. We confess the Nicene/Constantinople Creed of 381 ad. We dont waver from that and if one does, he is no longer in the Church. ie the entire Roman Church. Is the filioque what was always taught by the Church? No. Thus any explaination that can be made for the error just compounds the error.

Why should the General Councils end after the Schism (or have they continued in your view in your own church?)

How can we have an ecumenical council when Peter has walked away from the King's table in a huff? The Orthodox are waiting for the Roman Church to come back to thier senses. Drop the filioque, drop the dogmas that stem from the filioque, drop the other changes and return to the original faith then there will be unity in faith.

I find it an interesting topic, but I am not overly concerned about the Schism, as I think our beliefs are pretty similar, at least over the major issues.
[/quote]

Poppycock. This is the deception, that we all worship the same God just differently. Well I am a scientist and I believe God, to be God, cannot exist in more than one paradigm. Here we have an example:

The muslims say Allah is God. This "God" has no Son. Christianity says God has a Son, Jesus Christ. Now can both be the One God? No. Who is right? The Orthodox or I would be a muslim.

You say the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, an attibute of God however you slice it. The Orthodox confess the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father as stated by Jesus in John 15:26. We dont try to dissect it, define it or fit it into another understanding. This is what the Church understands because that is what Jesus said. You can change the meaning of proceed and make it to say send if you wish but that is intellecually dishonest. Jesus said the Holy Spirit comes from the Father and He would send Him. Why must you muddle that relationship?

God exists in one paradigm and each member plays a specific role in the Godhead.

Here is a site that explains the Orthodox position. Read it then get back with me.

http://agrino.org/cyberdesert/Valentine.htm

Orthodoxy
 
PHIL121 said:
I tend to agree more the timeline from the book of Revelation that the Seven Churchs represent the Seven Ages of the Church after Christs coming....


Ephesus--The Loveless Church--The church that crucified Christ
Smyyrna- The Persecuted Church--The church persecuted by the Romans
Pergamos--The Compromising Church--The church that became adopted paganism to become 'popular' with Rome
Thyatira--The Corrupt Church--The Church of the Middle Ages that that preached Faith by Works
Sardis-The Dead Church-- What the Church of the Middle Ages eventually became because of its corruption
Philadelphia---The Faithful Church-- The Church of the Reformation in the 1600's to 1800's
Laodicea--The Luke-Warm Church--- The modern Church, where people go to be bored on Sunday because 'its the thing to do'. (or else it is the place to go to play "Bingo")

Thus, the current age we are living in (Luke-warm, Laodicea Age) is the last before Christ's second coming.

or play golf right? The Church is not a building and where two or more gather.... so the golf course is as good a church as any as long as your saying "JESUS CHRIST!" alot when you miss putts and the guys around you agree and have all things in common.

The Orthodox Church is the Church of "Smyyrna" under your definition. "The Persecuted Church". Your "church" timeline is based on the "Historical Time Line" I posted for without that time line you could not know about a compromising church that morphs into a "Corrupt Church" then morphing into a Dead Church then coming to life in "The Faithful Church" Sounds alot like a fatal wound that was healed by some powers, eh? Red lights anyone? Hello?

My question to you is why all the Jesus Christ failure? Jesus built "the Church" on a foundation of Aposltes. Did it die out in the "persecution"? Jesus's Church succomb to Satan? Satan entered the Body of Christ and killed Him only to be "revived" in The Faithful Church by Luther? Jesus Christ cannot keep and protect His body so he called Luther in 1517ad to receate the Church by making it "The Faithful Church"? Luther was in the Sardis or dead Church according to you. Luther rooted in a dead church revived the living church of Jesus Christ that failed miserably and still is failing? Why is Jesus Christ a complete and utter failure in your opinion? The puny men He put in charge of His Church could not holdfast to the faith delievered so he appointed a book?

Are you a Lutheran? That would be the "The Faithful Church" under your defintion on the historical time line. Did the Faithful Church turn into the Luke-Warm Church? Can Jesus Christ change this much in your schematical timeline? The body of Jesus Christ, the same today, yesterday and forever. Interesting.

"The Luke-Warm Church". You need to speak only for the heterodox and not Christians. Have you ever witnessed the fervent love and devotion of Orthodox Christians towards Jesus Christ and His Kingdom? I venture to guess you have never gotten off the "church of the golf gods" long enough to grace the doors of an authentic and historical orthodox Church. You really need to judge yourself and not others. Maybe it is you who is "The Luke-Warm Church" or maybe just "The Dead Church" for how did life come to the dead one?

I believe personally members of "The Church" represent all these "churches" for is it not the scripture that tells a christian you have the Holy Spirit in you, a temple of God? In the Orthodox Church I have seen all of these. In me, I am guilty of all. It is in "The Persecuted Church" that salvation resides. Martyrdom maybe the only way this sinful soul enters the Kingdom of God.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

Orthodoxy
 
Tobael said:
Regarding the filioque, I think there is a misunderstanding as to what Catholics believe. St Augustine believed in it, saying that the Father is the Origin of the Godhead and that He gives the Son the capacity to bestow the Spirit in union with Him. It is not a double-source, but a double procession. This maintains the relational distinctions within the Godhead, as held by the Cappadocian Fathers, by clarifying the Son and Spirit's relationship. Gregory of Nyssa said the Spirit proceeds through the Son, which hints at the filioque.

Here is an explanation of the difference, paraphrased from one of my coursebooks:

Greek for ‘proceed’ (ekporeuomai, from Jn.15:26) had different shades of meaning from Latin procedo. The Greeks, in saying the Spirit proceeds from the Father, meant that the Father is source of the Godhead, which didn’t rule out Gregory of Nyssa’s role of the Son. To say that the Spirit proceeded from the Son, implied to them an independent source of Godhead.

Latin’s used procedo in a wider way, which allowed for the Son proceeding from the Father (Jn.8:42, where Latin procedo translates Gk. exerchomai) and speak of the Spirit proceeding from the Son while denying He is an independent source of the Godhead.

So, Eastern and Western traditions are not essentially contradictory (recognised by St Maximus the Confessor in a letter to a priest of Cyprus (645/646)), referring to the Western claim that both Roman Fathers and St. Cyril of Alexandria support the procession of the Spirit from the Son: they do not mean to show that the Son makes Himself the Cause or Author of the Spirit. Rather they recognise the Father as the one Cause and Author of the Son and of the Spirit; of One by means of generation; and of the other by means of ekporeusis. But they would show that [the Spirit] comes forth through Him [the Son], and by the same token demonstrates the union of Being [between Father and Son] and the lack of difference between Them.

I disagree. Here is why:

The actual 'Nicene Creed', the Symbol of Faith articulated by the First Ecumenical Council at Nicaea in A.D. 325, did not go into as much detail with regard to the Holy Spirit. It stated:

We believe in one God, the Father, almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten from the Father, only-begotten, that is, from the substance of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one substance with the Father, through Whom all things came into being, things in heaven and things on earth, Who because of our salvation came down and became incarnate, becoming man, suffered and rose again on the third day, ascended to the heavens, will come to judge the living and the dead;

And in the Holy Spirit.

But as for those who say, There was when He was not, and, Before being born He was not, and that He came into existence out of nothing, or who assert that the Son of God is of a different hypostasis or substance, or is subject to alteration or change -- these the Catholic and apostolic Church anathematises.

[trans. from Early Christian Creeds by J.N.D. Kelly]

The teaching on the Holy Spirit was expanded by the first Council of Constantinople (A.D. 381).

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
[Orthodox Church of America translation]

In A.D. 587, the local council of Toledo (Spain) added filioque to the Creed as an attempt to combat Arianism. (The Latin word filioque is translated in English as 'and the Son' and changes the Symbol of Faith to

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son;

who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified;

This addition was intended to emphasise the consubstantiality of the Father and Son against the Arian heresy.

From Spain, the 'filioque' spread to the Franks (present-day France). It was embraced by Charlemagne who went so far as to accuse the East of having deliberately omitted it from the ancient Creed. Pope Leo III (795-816) intervened, and forbade any interpolations or alterations in the Nicene Creed. He ordered the Creed, without filioque, to be engraved in Latin and Greek on two silver plates on the wall of St. Peter's in Rome. Nevertheless, the addition was maintained by the Franks. The dispute grew (many historians think Charlemagne used the filioque in an attempt to justify his claim to be emperor against the Emperor of the Roman Empire located in Constantinople) between East and West and was the focus of the council of Constantinople which met A.D. 879-880. This council (recognised as the Eighth Ecumenical Council by Orthodox Christians) reaffirmed the creed of A.D. 381 and declared any and all additions to the creed invalid. This council's teaching was affirmed by the patriarchs of Old Rome (John VIII), New Rome [Constantinople] (Photius), Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria and by Emperor Basil I.

Still, the filioque continued to be used by the Franks and spread to the Germans. The filioque began to be used in Rome, probably first at the coronation of Henry II in 1014. Historians see this as a passive acceptance by the pope (Benedict VIII) due to his reliance on the Germans for military protection. From that time, the Romans began adding the filioque to the creed and have continued doing so.


CRITICISM

Objection: The addition is neither from nor consistent with the Sacred Scriptures

The original phrase of the Symbol of Faith: '...believe in the Holy Spirit...who proceeds from the Father' is directly from John15:26:

Examining the key words, we find

<elthe> active voice of <erchomai>, meaning 'to come from one place to another (used of persons arriving), to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public'

<parakletos> in the widest sense, a helper, succourer, aider, assistant. More specifically, one who pleads another's cause before a judge, a pleader, defence counsellor, legal assistant, an advocate

<pempo> 'to dispatch', 'to send', 'to thrust in'

<ekporeuetai> is derived from ek + poreuomai
<ek> preposition denoting origin as in 'from', or 'out of', the point from whence the motion or action proceeds
<poreuomai> 'to traverse', 'to travel'


Thus, the most key word of the passage, <ekporeutai / ekporeuomai>, refers to the Holy Spirit's point of origin. Since that origin is 'from all eternity' (i.e. outside of time, before time began), it refers to the Holy Spirit's eternal origin and not to His temporal mission (His being sent into the world in time).

Even recent statements from the Vatican confirm this understanding.

the term <ekporeusis> as distinct from the term "proceed" (<proienai>)
can only characterize a relationship of origin to the principle without principle of the Trinity: the Father.

Source: L'Osservatore Romano, 20 September 1995: 'The Greek and Latin Traditions Regarding the Procession of the Holy Spirit'

Put in simpler terms, if I give a Rawlings baseball glove to my son he may tell others he received the glove from me, but the glove's ultimate origin is Rawlings. Similarly, we can say we receive the Holy Spirit from the Son (because the Son sent Him), but the Holy Spirit's ultimate origin is the Father.

The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son cannot be found in Sacred Scripture. It is a man-made addition. However, because Roman Catholicism has altered the ancient Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Faith and now teaches that the Holy Spirit's eternal procession is from both the Father and the Son, it is commonplace for Roman Catholic translations of the Bible to distort the plain meaning. Here's how two Roman Catholic translations handle the passage (John 15:26).

Translation New Jerusalem Bible

When the Paraclete comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who issues from* the Father, he will be my witness.

Translation New American Bible

When the Paraclete comes, the Spirit of truth who comes from the Father -- and whom I myself will send from the Father -- he will bear witness on my behalf.

* The sending of the Spirit into the world rather than the "eternal" proceeding from the Father within the Trinity.

Notes
Comes from the Father: refers to the mission of the Spirit to men, not to the eternal procession of the Spirit. Compare 14:26, where the Father, not Jesus, is said to send the Spirit.

There is nothing wrong with the New Jerusalem Bible's translation. The use of 'issues from' instead of 'proceeds' is a fine translation of <ekporeuetai>, but by footnoting 'issues from' and explaining that this does not refer to the Holy Spirit's eternal procession (His ultimate origin from all eternity) but only to the sending of the Holy Spirit into the world (in time), it simply denies the truth.

The New American Bible has (deliberately?) distorted the passage using the verb 'comes' in place of the far more accurate 'proceeds'. This mistranslation obscures the clear meaning of the Greek text. Its comment is essentially the same as the New Jerusalem translation: a denial of the clear meaning in favour of the Roman Catholic error. The reference to John 14:26 is a red herring. No one denies that the Holy Spirit is sent by both the Father and the Son into the world. These Roman Catholic translations would have one believe that there is nothing in Scripture that explicitly reveals the eternal procession of the Holy Spirit.

The filioque contradicts the clear and explicit teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ as found in the Holy Gospel.


Objection: The filioque undermines the HolyTrinity


Following the teaching of Plotinus (known as Neoplatonism), Augustine equated deity with the essential simplicity of the Neoplatonic 'One' (Augustine: 'Godhead is absolutely simple essence, and therefore to be is then the same as to be wise.' On the Trinity). Following the Neoplatonic teaching that being, will, and activity of the "One" were wholly indistinguishable, Augustine taught that the term 'God' did not mean directly the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but the more general notion of the godhead, not as any one Person in particular. Augustine so confused Person and essence that he went so far as to refer to 'the Person of that Trinity'. [On the Trinity, 2.10.8]

Due to this emphasis on the simple essence, Roman Catholicism, following Augustine, concluded that there could be no difference between 'begetting' and 'spirating'. By ignoring the warnings of two great saints:

You ask what is the procession of the Holy Spirit? Do you tell me first what is the unbegottenness of the Father, and I will then explain to you the physiology of the generation of the Son, and the procession of the Spirit, and we shall both of us be stricken with madness for prying into the mystery of God.

— Saint Gregory the Theologian

We have learned that there is a difference between generation [begetting] and procession, but the nature of the difference we in no wise understand.

— Saint John of Damascus

in favour of presuppositions rooted in pagan philosophy, it becomes essential to find some way of philosophically distinguishing between the Son and the Holy Spirit. The filioque provides this: the Son's origin is the Father alone, the Holy Spirit's origin is both Father and Son.

This emphasis on simplicity reduces the identity of the three Divine Persons to relative terms to each other. As Augustine wrote:

The terms [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] are used reciprocally and in relation to each other. On the Trinity, 6.5.6

Like the Arians who denied the full deity of Christ because He did not cause the Father (like other Neoplatonists confusing being, will, and activity), Augustine argued for the Son's divinity because He was the cause of another Divine Person (the Holy Spirit):

As the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself. On the Trinity, 15.27.47

For we cannot say that the Holy Spirit is not life, while the Father is life, and the Son is life: and hence as the Father ... has life in Himself; so He has given to Him that life should proceed from Him, as it also proceeds from Himself. On the Trinity, 15.27.48

Thus there is a subordination of Persons to attributes, and attributes to the divine essence (which is equivalent to the Neoplatonic 'One'). Augustine doesn't seem to shy away from explicitly confusing the Persons with attributes:

Because both the Father is a spirit and the Son is a spirit, and because the Father is Holy and the Son is Holy, therefore ... since the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one God, and certainly God is Holy, and God is a spirit, the Trinity can be called also the Holy Spirit. On the Trinity, 5.11.12

This confusion is also manifested in Augustine's famous definition of the Holy Spirit as the love between the Father and the Son:

Wherefore also the Holy Spirit consists in the same unity of substance, and in the same equality. For whether He is the unity of both, or the holiness, or the love, or therefore the unity because the love, and therefore the love because the holiness ... Therefore the Holy Spirit, whatever it [sic] is, is something common both to the Father and Son. But that communion itself is consubstantial and co-eternal; and if it may fitly be called friendship, let it be so called; but it is more aptly called love.
On the Trinity, 6.5.7

Logic shows how flawed this reasoning is. If the love between Father and Son establishes another Divine Person, why stop at this point? Why not posit that the love between the Father and the Holy Spirit establishes a Fourth Person of the Godhead; that the love between the Son and the Holy Spirit establishes a Fifth Person of the Godhead; that the love between the Father and the Fourth Person establishes a Sixth Person of the Godhead; that the love between the Son and the Fourth Person establishes a Seventh Person of the Godhead; that the love between the Holy Spirit and the Fourth Person establishes an Eighth Person of the Godhead; that the love between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit respectively with the Fifth Person establishes a Ninth, Tenth, and Eleventh Person of the Godhead respectively; etc. etc. etc. Once the principle that the love between Divine Persons leads to another Divine Person, how can it be logically stopped? It is the Neoplatonic idea of a 'plurality of spheres of being, arranged in hierarchical descending order ... each sphere of being is derived from its superior, a derivation that is not a process in time or space'. [Encyclopaedia Britannica]

By beginning from a pagan philosophical presupposition of 'divine simplicity' instead of Divine Revelation, from whence we know there are three Divine Persons in one Godhead, Augustine has so confused the Divine Persons that their distinction becomes unimportant. Thus, when faced with the following question:

Does the ability to 'spirate' the Holy Spirit come from the Godhead or from a Person?

Roman Catholics do not know how to respond. For those who recognise three distinct Persons Who have been revealed to us, it is clear that if the ability to 'spirate' is attributed to the Godhead, then there are two options: either 1) the Holy Spirit is not God (a denial of the Holy Trinity), or 2) He has the power to 'spirate' Himself (a ridiculous absurdity!). The typical Roman Catholic response is to claim the Father has given all things to the Son [Jn 3:35]. Of course, they admit that this cannot mean all things since the Father cannot give His Fatherhood to the Son (which would be an absurdity!), but they refuse to see the Fatherhood as the source of the Holy Spirit.

The entire teaching is based on a feeble attempt to employ human wisdom to explain that which is unexplainable. It is convoluted, confused, and rooted in a man-conceived god (as of the Neoplatonists) rather than the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses, the God of Jesus Christ.


Objection: The addition was novel

There are plenty of Roman Catholic teachings which explicitly teach a double procession. Here are some of the more important (emphases added):

The 11th Council of Toledo, 675 We also believe that the Holy Spirit, the Third Person in the Trinity is God, and that he [sic] is one and equal with God the Father and God the Son, of one substance as well as of one nature. However, he [sic] is not begotten nor created, but he [sic] proceeds from both and is the Spirit of both. We believe that the Holy Spirit is neither unbegotten nor begotten: lest, if we say unbegotten we should be asserting two Fathers; and if we said begotten we should appear to be preaching two Sons. He is called the Spirit, not only of the Father nor only of the Son but equally of the Father and of the Son. He proceeds not from the Father into the Son nor from the Son to sanctify creatures; but he [sic] is shown to have proceeded from both equally, because he [sic] is known as the love or the sanctity of both.

The 4th Lateran Council, 1215,

A definition against the Albigenses and other heretics

The Father is from no one; the Son is from the Father only; and the Holy Spirit is from both the Father and the Son equally

The 2nd Council of Lyons, 1274,

Constitution on the Procession of the Holy Spirit ...we confess that the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, not as from two principles, but as from one; not by two spirations but by one.

The Council of Florence, 1438-45,

Decree for the Jacobites

The Father is not begotten; the Son is begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.

The Roman Catechism, I.8.6

(the official RC catechism from 1566-1994) With regard to the words immediately succeeding: "who proceeds from the Father and the Son," the faithful are to be taught that the Holy Spirit proceeds, by eternal procession, from the Father and the Son as from one principle. This is a truth taught to us by the rule of the Church [sic] from which the least departure is unwarrantable on the part of Christians.

Vatican I, 1869-70,

Dogmatic Constitution on the Principal Mysteries of the Faith For from all eternity the Father generates the Son, not in producing by emanation another essence equal to his [sic] own, but in communicating his [sic] own simple essence. And in like manner, the Holy Spirit proceeds, not by a multiplication of the essence, but he [sic] proceeds by a communication of the same singular essence by one eternal spiration from the Father and the Son as from one principle.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, 246

(the new, official catechism) The Latin tradition of the Creed confesses that the Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son (filioque)." The Council of Florence in 1438 explains: "The Holy Spirit is eternally from Father and Son; He has his [sic] nature and subsistence at once (simul) from the Father and the Son. He proceeds eternally from both as from one principle and through one spiration . . . . And, since the Father has through generation given to the only begotten Son everything that belongs to the Father, except being Father, the Son has also eternally from the Father, from whom he [sic] is eternally born, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son."

Catechism of the Catholic Church, 248

At the outset the Eastern tradition expresses the Father's character as first origin [sic] of the Spirit. By confessing the Spirit as he "who proceeds from the Father," it affirms that he [sic] comes from the Father through the Son. The Western tradition expresses first the consubstantial communion between Father and Son, by saying that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (filioque).


As can be seen from the above examples, there have been attempts to 'nuance' the older teaching with statements such as 'the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son as from one principle'. The problem with the Father and Son as 'one principle' is that the Holy Spirit, Who obviously is excluded from that principle, ends up being subordinated — the fundamental problem with the filioque. Unfortunately, because of Roman Catholicism's understanding of 'development of doctrine' (another heresy), they are unable to repudiate earlier statements, even after learning they were wrong.

The above referenced article from L'Osservatore Romano is typical of these recent attempts to distance themselves from the older, explicit teachings of a double procession. The article is easily summarised: although the Greek word <ekporeuomai> which in Latin is rendered <procedit> 'can only characterize a relationship of origin to the principle' [first page of article], <procedit> can refer to either an ultimate origin or an intermediary origin. In effect, the Vatican document claims that the Latin rendering of the Symbol of Faith (what they label the Creed) is really the equivalent of:

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who is sent from the Father and the Son ...

The problem with such an interpretation should be obvious. First, it is a clear change from the original meaning. Even for those who might not understand that <ekporeuomai> can only refer to ultimate origin (and, since the Holy Spirit is eternal, must refer to His eternal origin), it should be clear that this disrupts the parallel with the Symbol's explication of the Son's origin ('one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son, eternally begotten of the Father').

The Symbol declares what we believe regarding the ultimate origin of the Son. Does it not make logical sense that it would also declare what we believe regarding the ultimate origin of the Holy Spirit instead of the sending of Him into the world at a specific moment in time?

The addition of the filioque was a violation of the ancient principle established by Saint Vincent of Lerins (? - ante A.D. 450):

In the Catholic Church herself every care must be taken that we may hold fast to that which has been believed everywhere, always, and by all. For this is, then, truly and properly Catholic. The Notebooks, ca. A.D. 434

The filioque certainly was not and is not something believed 'everywhere, always, and by all'. The Roman Catholic Church, by adopting something not 'truly and properly Catholic' forfeited its claim to be 'Catholic'.


Objection: The addition of the filioque was arbitrary

Even Roman Catholic historians and theologians now admit that the addition of the filioque was done arbitrarily, without consulting the East. It expressed a novel belief which was not a part of that which had been believed 'everywhere, always, and by all'. As Alexei Khomiakov wrote in The Church Is One:

Therefore the pride of reason and of illegal domination, which appropriated to itself, in opposition to the decree of the whole Church (pronounced at the Council of Ephesus), the right to add its private explanations and human hypotheses to the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Symbol is in itself an infraction of the sanctity and inviolability of the Church. Just as the very pride of the separate Churches, which dared to change the Symbol of the whole Church without the consent of their brethren, was inspired by a spirit not of love, and was a crime against God and the Church, so also their blind wisdom, which did not comprehend the mysteries of God, was a distortion of the faith; for faith is not preserved where love has grown weak.

© 1997, 1998 Thomas Ross Valentine

May I add:

The Council of Chalcedon - 451 AD

The sacred and great and universal synod by God's grace and by decree of your most religious and Christ-loving emperors Valentinian Augustus and Marcian Augustus assembled in Chalcedon, metropolis of the province of Bithynia, in the shrine of the saintly and triumphant martyr Euphemia, issues the following decrees…… Since we have formulated these things with all possible accuracy and attention, the sacred and universal synod decreed that no one is permitted to produce, or even to write down or compose, any other creed or to think or teach otherwise. As for those who dare either to compose another creed or even to promulgate or teach or hand down another creed for those who wish to convert to a recognition of the truth from Hellenism or from Judaism, or from any kind of heresy at all: if they be bishops or clerics, the bishops are to be deposed from the episcopacy and the clerics from the clergy; if they be monks or layfolk, they are to be anathematised.


The Council Of Ephesus - 431 A.D.

It is not permitted to produce or write or compose any other creed except the one which was defined by the holy fathers who were gathered together in the holy Spirit at Nicaea. Any who dare to compose or bring forth or produce another creed for the benefit of those who wish to turn from Hellenism or Judaism or some other heresy to the knowledge of the truth, if they are bishops or clerics they should be deprived of their respective charges and if they are laymen they are to be anathematised.
 
:o That's an awefully, long post. Next time, please seperate it into shorter posts that are easier to read and digest.

Rule 13 - Posting Etiquette:
Please keep the posts down to a respectable length. You stand a better chance of getting your point across. People may not want to read them if they are too long. No using all CAPTIAL LETTERS in your responses. That is considered an aggressive action.

Also include your source and link if possible; like this:

http://aggreen.net/filioque/filioque.html

or this:

http://agrino.org/cyberdesert/Valentine.htm

Rule 11 - Respect copyrighted material:
When you copy/paste material please supply a link(s) to your source(s). It is a good idea to do that for two reasons.

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ty.gif
 
Tobael wrote
[I see the Catholic Church as the true Church because the Pope represents Peter who was given primacy, and was also given the keys to the kingdom, by Jesus.]

Was it not Christ that also said
Mark 10:42-45
42 But Jesus called them to Himself and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 43 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant. 44 And whoever of you desires to be first shall be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.â€Â

Matthew 20:24-28
24 And when the ten heard it, they were greatly displeased with the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. 26 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. 27 And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.â€Â

The insistence on primacy of power of ANY one Bishop is against The Holy Scriptures.

Was not even St Peter Reproved by St Paul (Gal 2:11)
and in like manner did not St Paul submit to St James and take part in the purification rite (Acts 21:17-26)

If these Holy Apostles did not see it fit to strive for power or primacy, but in humbleness followed the words of the Lord, can our Bishops do any different?
[/quote]
 
Orthodoxy,

your post is long and deep. Can I just say that the filioque is taken from Scripture by Augustine? The Spirit's procession from the Son comes from His being the Spirit of Jesus:

When they reached the frontier of Mysia they thought to cross it into Bithynia, but as the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them (Acts 16:7)

Who Jesus breathed on the face of the disciples, saying: ‘receive the Holy Spirit’:

After saying this he breathed on them and said: 'Receive the Holy Spirit. (John 20:22).

Theophilus,

I think the Pope is referred to as the Servant of the Servants of the Lord.

Jesus said to Peter:

Gospel of John:
21:15 After the meal Jesus said to Simon Peter, 'Simon son of John, do you love me more than these others do?' He answered, 'Yes Lord, you know I love you'. Jesus said to him, 'Feed my lambs'.
21:16 A second time he said to him, 'Simon son of John, do you love me?' He replied, 'Yes, Lord, you know I love you'. Jesus said to him, 'Look after my sheep'.
21:17 Then he said to him a third time, 'Simon son of John, do you love me?' Peter was upset that he asked him the third time, 'Do you love me?' and said, 'Lord, you know everything; you know I love you'. Jesus said to him, 'Feed my sheep.

Peter was singled out by Jesus here and also in Matthew:

16:18 So I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church. And the gates of the underworld can never hold out against it.
16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: whatever you bind on earth shall be considered bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall be considered loosed in heaven.'

Jesus has singled out one man to lead His Church, with the authority to bind and loose. This is an authority different from the Gentile "lording it over", but is something that is exercised in love, as John's Gospel above indicates.

If there is no primacy among the Bishops, how can they be united? If there was no one to lead the result would be division: a point we see in the Protestant churches. I don't know about the Orthodox: are they united in doctrine?

But this is beside the point. Jesus has instituted one man as leader of the Church and the Church from the earliest times has elected successors to this one man.
 
Orthodoxy said:
Here is the time line for the Church. The schismatic Romans fell away from the Church in 1054 ad. The protestant groups fell away from the Roman Church in 1517ad. Orthodoxy missed the reformation altogether.

http://www.saintignatiuschurch.org/timeline.html#AD150

http://www.orthodoxwitness.org/Church_timeline.html

How come it didn't mention the eastern Churches that united with Rome again?
Why didn't it mention the Orthodox countries that forced eastern Catholics to join them in their schism?

That's all well and good they talk about the Crusades, what about the property the Orthodox church stole from Catholics? I'm still waiting for the Orthodox church to return the property and parishes that were stolen from Catholics under the Soviets.

The Roman Catholic Church is only ONE of twenty-four Churches that make up the entire Catholic Church.
You had your own Reformation in the 16th Century- Orthodox churches who rejoined with Rome seeing the error of their ways.
 
Tobael said:
Orthodoxy,

I am Catholic and I don't know that much about the Orthodox Church. My understanding is that there is a difference over primacy of leadership between Catholic and Orthodox churches and that the Schism in 1054 centred around the filioque additon to the Creed, which the Orthodox saw as being in violation of the Council of Nicaea. It seems to me also that the Orthodox believe in the primacy of the General Council over the Pope. There was a long build up of tension prior to the Schism, I believe.

The problem was, they couldn't get the Catholic Church to go along with the doctrines they wanted. The Patriarch of Constantinople broke from the Pope and attacked Latin parishes in Constantinople. He got exactly his wish- an ex-communication by the Catholic Church. The Church, being wise, made sure the ex-communication specifically referred to the Patriarch and not those in the east, whom the Bull called "most orthodox". It took the patriarch years to convince they other three Sees that now make up the Orthodox church to go along with him. To this day, they still claim Rome broke from them, but we did not. We only issued an ex-communication to a Patriarch that asked for it. There was no way you could attack Latin parishes and not expect that.

Does the Orthodox Church display this unity in doctrine and leadership? Why should the General Councils end after the Schism (or have they continued in your view in your own church?)

Their doctrine is united in the sense that avoided any change since their schism. We share a lot of doctrine and Tradition, those that existed for the first thousand years of Christianity.

If you ever really want to baffle an Orthodox, ask him/her the motive behind leaving Rome. Why Rome, which apparently was abusing its power and exercising authority over people they had no right to, would want to cut them off.

The only motive that makes any sense is that a Patriarch, second to Rome (Constantiople) was tired of Rome and wanted to be the head of his own church. Eastern Christians, also wanting more say in the church, joined him, after some convincing, of course.
 
Orthodoxy said:
Tobael,

I am Catholic and I don't know that much about the Orthodox Church. My understanding is that there is a difference over primacy of leadership between Catholic and Orthodox churches and that the Schism in 1054 centred around the filioque additon to the Creed, which the Orthodox saw as being in violation of the Council of Nicaea. It seems to me also that the Orthodox believe in the primacy of the General Council over the Pope. There was a long build up of tension prior to the Schism, I believe.

I am not suprized you know nearly nothing about the Holy Orthodox Church. My wife was raised in the RCC and she had no clue about the orthodox faith either. The RCC basically ignores us or lies about what we believe and they attempt to explain that we really believe what the RCC says but we are to stubborn to admit it. Fact is the Roman Church confessed the HS proceeds from the Father for a good 300 years before the theology even raised its ugly head. We did not change a thing, you guys did with out any authority what so ever and certainly no agreement in the entire Church. Read the councils of the Church.

Actually, we are encouraged to view the Schism from both viewpoints. I actually lost marks in an essay for not looking into the Orthodox view. I have since bought "Orthodox Theology, An Introduction" and "The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church", both by Vladimir Lossky. I like the Eastern idea of "divinisation" in which man's original role was to be a bridge between the divine and the world, bringing the world to God by divinising it in himself. Man failed so Christ was sent so that man's role, which is still intact, could be carried out in Him. That's as I remember it.

The Holy Spirit as proceeding from the Father doesn't rule out the role of the Son when understood in context. The Nicene Creed didn't deny the Son's role, just as, in being very brief regarding the Holy Spirit, it didn't rule out Constantinople I's statement regarding the Holy Spirit's divinity.

The Council Of Ephesus - 431 A.D.
It is not permitted to produce or write or compose any other creed except the one which was defined by the holy fathers who were gathered together in the holy Spirit at Nicaea. Any who dare to compose or bring forth or produce another creed for the benefit of those who wish to turn from Hellenism or Judaism or some other heresy to the knowledge of the truth, if they are bishops or clerics they should be deprived of their respective charges and if they are laymen they are to be anathematised.

But Constantinople I changed the Nicene Creed. It did so, not by contradicting but, by developing the doctrine of the Holy Spirit.

Nicaea said:

And in the Holy Spirit.

Constantinople I said, in addition to Nicaea:

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord (to Kurion) and giver of life, who proceeds (ekporeuomenon) from the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets. [And] in one Holy Catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We expect the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen

Also, Constantinople I dropped Nicaea's Christ as coming "from the being (ousia) of the Father"

So, the Nicene Creed has developed since Nicaea, which obviously doesn't contradict the above statement of Ephesus. So, why should the addition of the filioque?

The Council of Chalcedon - 451 AD
The sacred and great and universal synod by God's grace and by decree of your most religious and Christ-loving emperors Valentinian Augustus and Marcian Augustus assembled in Chalcedon, metropolis of the province of Bithynia, in the shrine of the saintly and triumphant martyr Euphemia, issues the following decrees…… Since we have formulated these things with all possible accuracy and attention, the sacred and universal synod decreed that no one is permitted to produce, or even to write down or compose, any other creed or to think or teach otherwise. As for those who dare either to compose another creed or even to promulgate or teach or hand down another creed for those who wish to convert to a recognition of the truth from Hellenism or from Judaism, or from any kind of heresy at all: if they be bishops or clerics, the bishops are to be deposed from the episcopacy and the clerics from the clergy; if they be monks or layfolk, they are to be anathematised.

The Roman bishop agreed to these provisions of the Councils. Why the change? Who is bringing a "different Jesus" to the table over the one that has always been believed by even your roman Church?

But I don't believe it is a different Creed, but the original one developed as our understanding develops in light of the Holy Spirit. If the additions at Constantinople 1 were not regarded as changing the truth of the Creed, why should the addition of the filioque, especially when it has been proven from Scripture by the likes of Augustine and, prior to this, been developed by the earlier Fathers, even such as the Eastern Cappadocians?

[quote:470f4]I see the Catholic Church as the true Church because the Pope represents Peter who was given primacy, and was also given the keys to the kingdom, by Jesus. I see that this is witnessed to by the unity observed in the Catholic Church and also by the fact that the General Councils continued after the split only in the Catholic Church.

John 13:13-16, Jesus says, Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Here Jesus, after washing the feet of Peter who told Jesus he would never allow Jesus to wash his feet, tells ALL the disciples they must be servants of each other not lord not head over the others. Peter was plainly told here by Jesus he is not the head of the Church if he is not a servant to the entire Church. Peter is chief among equals not chief over the others. Frankly Peter was arrogant and brutish. The Roman Church still displays the brutality and arrogance of Peter. The verse stating Peter is the Rock (Matthew 16:18) is a reflective pronoun used by Jesus to say He (Jesus) is the Rock and Peter is the foundation along with the other Apostles that the Church was built on. The Orthodox dont deny the leadership of Peter's see if he is a servant and not a lord.[/quote:470f4]

But the Pope is Servant of the Servants of God. There is no denying that he is there to serve his flock. Look at the suffering John Paul II went through in his last years. There is even talk of him being declared a martyr for the Faith because of his sacrifice for the Church. Regarding Peter's leadership, surely you cannot deny that Jesus gave him the authority to bind and loose, which gives him primacy in matters of faith and morals?

[quote:470f4]Does the Orthodox Church display this unity in doctrine and leadership?

Yes. We confess the Nicene/Constantinople Creed of 381 ad. We dont waver from that and if one does, he is no longer in the Church. ie the entire Roman Church. Is the filioque what was always taught by the Church? No. Thus any explaination that can be made for the error just compounds the error. [/quote:470f4]

But, neither was the Holy Spirit's divinity taught by the Church, explicitly at least. It was a truth that came to light through Athanasius and the Cappadocians in conflict with such as the Arians. Nicaea didn't mention the Holy Spirit's divinity, but only the re-written Creed of Constantiniople 1 did. This additon wasn't an error but a development.

[quote:470f4]Why should the General Councils end after the Schism (or have they continued in your view in your own church?)

How can we have an ecumenical council when Peter has walked away from the King's table in a huff? The Orthodox are waiting for the Roman Church to come back to thier senses. Drop the filioque, drop the dogmas that stem from the filioque, drop the other changes and return to the original faith then there will be unity in faith.[/quote:470f4]

Look at it this way. Why should the Church stop developing its doctrine just because some have fallen away? If a tree lost a large branch it would continue growing, whereas the branch wouldn't. The Catholic Church displays all the signs of being the true Church because of the growth and the fruit.

[quote:470f4]I find it an interesting topic, but I am not overly concerned about the Schism, as I think our beliefs are pretty similar, at least over the major issues.

Poppycock. This is the deception, that we all worship the same God just differently. Well I am a scientist and I believe God, to be God, cannot exist in more than one paradigm. Here we have an example:

The muslims say Allah is God. This "God" has no Son. Christianity says God has a Son, Jesus Christ. Now can both be the One God? No. Who is right? The Orthodox or I would be a muslim.[/quote:470f4]

I don't think our views on God are so much different. As I said, Catholics believe that the Father is the Origin of the Trinitarian Godhead.

You say the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, an attibute of God however you slice it. The Orthodox confess the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father as stated by Jesus in John 15:26. We dont try to dissect it, define it or fit it into another understanding. This is what the Church understands because that is what Jesus said. You can change the meaning of proceed and make it to say send if you wish but that is intellecually dishonest. Jesus said the Holy Spirit comes from the Father and He would send Him. Why must you muddle that relationship?

But Jesus also breathes the Holy Spirit on the Apostles, surely a sign that the Holy Spirit come from Him? Also, the Book of Acts calls the Holy Spirit the Spirit of Jesus, as I mentioned above.

God exists in one paradigm and each member plays a specific role in the Godhead.

Here is a site that explains the Orthodox position. Read it then get back with me.

http://agrino.org/cyberdesert/Valentine.htm

The Persons are distinct ONLY by relations of origin, as developed by the Cappadocians. The problem of how the Holy Spirit is related to the Son was the reason why a clearer understanding of the Holy Spirit's procession was sought.
 
stray bullet said:
Tobael said:
Orthodoxy,

I am Catholic and I don't know that much about the Orthodox Church. My understanding is that there is a difference over primacy of leadership between Catholic and Orthodox churches and that the Schism in 1054 centred around the filioque additon to the Creed, which the Orthodox saw as being in violation of the Council of Nicaea. It seems to me also that the Orthodox believe in the primacy of the General Council over the Pope. There was a long build up of tension prior to the Schism, I believe.

The problem was, they couldn't get the Catholic Church to go along with the doctrines they wanted. The Patriarch of Constantinople broke from the Pope and attacked Latin parishes in Constantinople. He got exactly his wish- an ex-communication by the Catholic Church. The Church, being wise, made sure the ex-communication specifically referred to the Patriarch and not those in the east, whom the Bull called "most orthodox". It took the patriarch years to convince they other three Sees that now make up the Orthodox church to go along with him. To this day, they still claim Rome broke from them, but we did not. We only issued an ex-communication to a Patriarch that asked for it. There was no way you could attack Latin parishes and not expect that.

Does the Orthodox Church display this unity in doctrine and leadership? Why should the General Councils end after the Schism (or have they continued in your view in your own church?)

Their doctrine is united in the sense that avoided any change since their schism. We share a lot of doctrine and Tradition, those that existed for the first thousand years of Christianity.

If you ever really want to baffle an Orthodox, ask him/her the motive behind leaving Rome. Why Rome, which apparently was abusing its power and exercising authority over people they had no right to, would want to cut them off.

The only motive that makes any sense is that a Patriarch, second to Rome (Constantiople) was tired of Rome and wanted to be the head of his own church. Eastern Christians, also wanting more say in the church, joined him, after some convincing, of course.

Thanks for the info, stray bullet. I didn't know that.
 
Vic,

That's an awefully, long post. Next time, please seperate it into shorter posts that are easier to read and digest.

[quote:1158d]Rule 13 - Posting Etiquette:
Please keep the posts down to a respectable length. You stand a better chance of getting your point across. People may not want to read them if they are too long. No using all CAPTIAL LETTERS in your responses. That is considered an aggressive action.

Also include your source and link if possible; like this:

http://aggreen.net/filioque/filioque.html

or this:

http://agrino.org/cyberdesert/Valentine.htm[/quote:1158d]


I will heed the warning. However it is a good read on what and why Christians believe what they do about the nature of God.

Rule 11 - Respect copyrighted material:
When you copy/paste material please supply a link(s) to your source(s). It is a good idea to do that for two reasons.

A- it gives everyone the chance to check you sources...

B- it gives the credit to the originator of the information and avoids copyright infringement problems.

I thought I did post the web site then his name at the bottom albeit in different posts. My bad. :roll:

Orthodoxy
 
stray bullet,

The problem was, they couldn't get the Catholic Church to go along with the doctrines they wanted. The Patriarch of Constantinople broke from the Pope and attacked Latin parishes in Constantinople. He got exactly his wish- an ex-communication by the Catholic Church. The Church, being wise, made sure the ex-communication specifically referred to the Patriarch and not those in the east, whom the Bull called "most orthodox". It took the patriarch years to convince they other three Sees that now make up the Orthodox church to go along with him. To this day, they still claim Rome broke from them, but we did not. We only issued an ex-communication to a Patriarch that asked for it. There was no way you could attack Latin parishes and not expect that.

Yes. This is why the largest orthodox church today in Istanbul, Turkey today is a muslim mosque because Orthodoxy wiped out the "Roman Catholics Church". :wink: Really? Re-writting Christian history is truely pathetic. Yes, problems arose because of many false teachings and the "filioque addition" was just another in a long line. No differant that the Monophysite rebellion or the Sabellian rebellion or the Arian rebellion. Many died in many rebellions against the "true and Correct" Church. So Rome fell in heresy, slaughtered orthodoxy and has duped the protestants to think the orthodox Church is the "dirty step sister" of the holy roman empire, what of it? So Rome has duped the world, does that change the Church? No. Hades will not prevail.

Tell me why the Orthodox Church continue to confess the "Holy Spirit, who proceeds from the Father" as confessed by Jesus in 33 ad and the Aposltes and fathers in the Nicene/Constantinople Creed of 381ad and the Roman Church does not? It is what has always been taught. You are the ones changing things.

Tell ya what. We have an ecumenical council of the entire Church and everyone must agree on the filioque issue and all the other added doctrines of both the Orthodox and the Roman Church. Then what ever everyone agrees upon, every one who calls themsleves Christian must abide by them as in 325 ad with the 318 prophesied bishops of the Church. No problem. Get your Bishop to call a council and hash it out. What is the Roman Catholic Church waiting for?

[quote:biggrin63f8]Does the Orthodox Church display this unity in doctrine and leadership? Why should the General Councils end after the Schism (or have they continued in your view in your own church?)

Their doctrine is united in the sense that avoided any change since their schism. We share a lot of doctrine and Tradition, those that existed for the first thousand years of Christianity.[/quote:biggrin63f8]

No we have not changed our confession since John 15:26. Fact is the Roman Church holds to very few Orthodox traditions. The Roman Faith at least in america is certainly more Protestant than Orthodox. This notion is laughable.

If you ever really want to baffle an Orthodox, ask him/her the motive behind leaving Rome. Why Rome, which apparently was abusing its power and exercising authority over people they had no right to, would want to cut them off.

We did not leave anything nor have we. The proof is the fact the Roman Church confess a different Jesus Christ than the Church of Nicea 381 ad and other confessions of ecumenical councils. Any logical investigation of this issue plainly shows the Romans Church offically changed the statement of faith confessed by the Church for over 1000 years without full consent of the Church commanded by the Scripture ("one accord" and "all things in common"). After this change the Pope had to claim himself "infallible". The Roman bishop did not claim this for 800 years!

The only motive that makes any sense is that a Patriarch, second to Rome (Constantiople) was tired of Rome and wanted to be the head of his own church. Eastern Christians, also wanting more say in the church, joined him, after some convincing, of course.

No. The "filioque" addition, Dual Procession of the Holy Spirit is wrong theology and wrong thinking which leads to wrong worship. We can ignore this or try to explain it away the like the romans would like but this is the root of the problem for "this" Orthodox Christian. The protestants ignorantly ignore this heretical issue and make it meaningless while all the time casting stones at "cults" that have their roots in the rebellion of Luther.

One thing is for certain: either the 381 ad Church is right or the 1054 ad Church is right. Both cannot be worshipping the one true God.

God plainly warns us to worship Him and not false God so it behooves all of us to be sure we are worshipping God in His way.

Now can you answer a question or two for me?

In the early Church the bishop of rome had authority over how much of Italy and the western countries ie France, Spain, England. up to say 500 ad?

If the Canon of the Early Church declares a bishop of a See was not allowed to "over run" his boundaries why do the Roman Catholics in Russia today seek to "convert" the Orthodox to Rome if we are one big happy "catholic family" as you seem to think we are if only the orthodox would submit to the roman bishop?

Why try convert a "family member"?

Why is the Roman Bishop "out of bounds"?

Orthodoxy
 
stray bullet said:
Tobael said:
Orthodoxy,

I am Catholic and I don't know that much about the Orthodox Church. My understanding is that there is a difference over primacy of leadership between Catholic and Orthodox churches and that the Schism in 1054 centred around the filioque additon to the Creed, which the Orthodox saw as being in violation of the Council of Nicaea. It seems to me also that the Orthodox believe in the primacy of the General Council over the Pope. There was a long build up of tension prior to the Schism, I believe.

The problem was, they couldn't get the Catholic Church to go along with the doctrines they wanted.
You mean like sticking with the Symbol of faith as written and specifically protected from change by Canon Law?

stray bullet said:
The Patriarch of Constantinople broke from the Pope and attacked Latin parishes in Constantinople. He got exactly his wish- an ex-communication by the Catholic Church. The Church, being wise, made sure the ex-communication specifically referred to the Patriarch and not those in the east, whom the Bull called "most orthodox". It took the patriarch years to convince they other three Sees that now make up the Orthodox church to go along with him. To this day, they still claim Rome broke from them, but we did not. We only issued an ex-communication to a Patriarch that asked for it. There was no way you could attack Latin parishes and not expect that.
You've omitted a good many important details in this one-sided tractate. Where in all of this is the Pope's failed war with the Normans, his squeeze on churches in southern Italy under the Patriarch of Constantinople, the dispute over the Balkan churches, Humbert's plea for the donation of Constantine and the primacy of the Roman Patriarch....and subsquent placing of the bull on the Holy Altar at Hagia Sophia. A bull signed by a Pope 3 months dead, I might add.

Stray Bullet said:
Does the Orthodox Church display this unity in doctrine and leadership? Why should the General Councils end after the Schism (or have they continued in your view in your own church?)

Their doctrine is united in the sense that avoided any change since their schism. We share a lot of doctrine and Tradition, those that existed for the first thousand years of Christianity.
This is a ridiculous statement. Our worship has been profoundly influenced by the hesychasts, by the fools for Christ, through the reforms in Russia, by the new martyrs and theologians.

Should we then embrace the change as you have? Turn our altars around and clean out the icons so as to look like a nice Protestant church as you have? Or why not bring in guitars and sing Protestant hymns? One never knows if one is in a Lutheran service or Catholic Mass anymore.

stray bullet said:
If you ever really want to baffle an Orthodox, ask him/her the motive behind leaving Rome. Why Rome, which apparently was abusing its power and exercising authority over people they had no right to, would want to cut them off.
I'm your huckleberry-
We didn't 'leave Rome' because we were never in her. We were in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and we are to this day. Rome forgot what 'first among equals' meant.

Rome cut off those who would not be ruled, not those that they wanted to rule.

stray bullet said:
The only motive that makes any sense is that a Patriarch, second to Rome (Constantiople) was tired of Rome and wanted to be the head of his own church. Eastern Christians, also wanting more say in the church, joined him, after some convincing, of course.
More say? You act as if Rome had been dictating policy in the East. Simply not the case. Rome became inflamed with desire to lord it over other Sees, and when the remaining Patriarchates saw that this issue between Constantinople and Rome was not simply a personal dispute, but rather the first strong arm tactic of myriads to come, they took a long, hard look at what Rome was doing and saying.
 
Still trying to work your way into heaven, Orthodoxy

What's a matter, won't you Church sell you an indulgence?

You need George Carlin as your new bishop! :lol:
 
PHIL121 said:
Still trying to work your way into heaven, Orthodoxy

What's a matter, won't you Church sell you an indulgence?

You need George Carlin as your new bishop! :lol:

What work are you accusing me of doing?

Orthodoxy
 

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