Homosexuality and Obesity?

[Dave...]

windozer wrote:

Dave...

I am not here to argue, nor to correct anyone.

You sort it out? At the end of the day it is the Son who sets you free. that Son is Jesus and that is good enough for me.

I am only here to poke some holes in someones smoke screen.

Niether am I, windozer. I'm trying to help. Believe me. Paul wrote his letter to the Romans to answer the same questions about the law. The problem is that much of the scripture that you are posting from Romans is speaking about the law in terms of justification only. In that sense, and understood in that context, that same scripture is irrelevant to the way you are using it in this discussion. The works we do will always be an evidence of of who we are. It's true that works do not justify us before God and never did, not even in the OT, but good works are a necessary evidence and a fruit of a true faith.

"Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass [Note: heaven and earth are still here], one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least Commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:17-19 KJV)

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with The Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His Commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His Commandments, is a liar, and the Truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him. He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked." (1 John 2:1-6 KJV)

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth Him that begat loveth Him also that is begotten of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep His Commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His Commandments: and His Commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is He that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is Truth." (1 John 5:1-6 KJV)

Again, we are not justified before God for keeping his commandments, but one would need to seriously question whether his faith was real or not if he were a tree continually producing bad fruit.

This was the whole point of James, no?

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This doesn't mean that we will be sinless. It sounded to me like you were using grace to excuse homosexuality. I see that a lot on this forum. If i'm wrong about you, well, it never hurts to clarify because the wolves are watching and waiting for an oportunity to lead people astray. BTW, I agree with this quote also

Would you accept a sinner saved by grace who believes in turning from sin and living their lives in a manner pleasing to God, but yet was not free of homosexuality... into your church?

Peace

 

[Relic]

.


. Specifics Please .
What "scriptures" would you present?


Lyric's Dad, pfilmtech,

sputnik, Windozer

and any other's who want to participate.


Note: Since these are the members that have participated in this thread, as of late, and have spoken out about how others should not provide presentation on this subject ...

and because, I haven't seen any examples of specifically and precisely "What" one should say and provide in a presentation on this subject from any of the above mentioned, if you have, then please provide the links that show those specifics...

it would be interesting to see your answers to this following question:

• Which scriptures would you use to show a homosexual or someone who is thinking about acting out on homosexual behavior, what the bible has to say "verbatim" (specifically, word for word) about this particular sin?
  
  1.) provide scripture, verbatim (specifically, word for word),
  2.) use as many scriptures you can find that you yourself would use to show someone that it is a sin to participate in a homosexual relationship, those who are practicing/living a such a relationship or are wanting to do so.
  3.) and please do show us "specifically" what your dialog would be to such a person(s) as you are presenting these scriptures to them.

Since I was hard pressed to find any of your "specific examples" on this matter. Please do provide an example of your way of providing a presentation to someone as if you were speaking directly to them. Instead of being so vague about exactly "what you would say", you have only shown how you would be so kind in your presentation without really saying what you would specifically say.
So please, just make a presentation without remark to how kind you are being in doing so. Being kind is not the issue, (sometimes the scriptures, the word of God, does not appear to be so kind in the face of sin, when in fact it is being so, in it's harshness. The issue is the sin and it being a violation of righteousness in the eyes of God, and the definition of it.
So please, "Specifically" what would you say to someone? Be specific! please. That is, just to clear things up and gain an understanding "specifically" from "your" findings and points of view. You know... your own "specific" examples. :wink:


Thanks.




.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

.


. Specifics Please .
What "scriptures" would you present?


Lyric's Dad, pfilmtech,

sputnik, Windozer

and any other's who want to participate.


Note: Since these are the members that have participated in this thread, as of late, and have spoken out about how others should not provide presentation on this subject ...

and because, I haven't seen any examples of specifically and precisely "What" one should say and provide in a presentation on this subject from any of the above mentioned, if you have, then please provide the links that show those specifics...

it would be interesting to see your answers to this following question:

• Which scriptures would you use to show a homosexual or someone who is thinking about acting out on homosexual behavior, what the bible has to say "verbatim" (specifically, word for word) about this particular sin?
  
  1.) provide scripture, verbatim (specifically, word for word),
  2.) use as many scriptures you can find that you yourself would use to show someone that it is a sin to participate in a homosexual relationship, those who are practicing/living a such a relationship or are wanting to do so.
  3.) and please do show us "specifically" what your dialog would be to such a person(s) as you are presenting these scriptures to them.

Since I was hard pressed to find any of your "specific examples" on this matter. Please do provide an example of your way of providing a presentation to someone as if you were speaking directly to them. Instead of being so vague about exactly "what you would say", you have only shown how you would be so kind in your presentation without really saying what you would specifically say.
So please, just make a presentation without remark to how kind you are being in doing so. Being kind is not the issue, (sometimes the scriptures, the word of God, does not appear to be so kind in the face of sin, when in fact it is being so, in it's harshness. The issue is the sin and it being a violation of righteousness in the eyes of God, and the definition of it.
So please, "Specifically" what would you say to someone? Be specific! please. That is, just to clear things up and gain an understanding "specifically" from "your" findings and points of view. You know... your own "specific" examples. :wink:


Thanks.




.

Relic, having had the opportunity to see you in action here for the past while, I think I know where you stand and the things you believe. It would therefore behoove me to get into a discussion on these things with you. Thanks but no thanks. We will just have to disagree on the importance of showing love and not disdain in speaking to people about the Savior who by the way, loved people.

 

[bibleberean]

We will just have to disagree on the importance of showing love and not disdain in speaking to people about the Savior who by the way, loved people.

Lyric's Dad,

I have not read that Relic shows disdain for sinners.

I have seen that she has a problem with sin and the acceptance of it in the church.

I hope you are not saying you have "love" and she dosen't.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

We will just have to disagree on the importance of showing love and not disdain in speaking to people about the Savior who by the way, loved people.

Lyric's Dad,

I have not read that Relic shows disdain for sinners.

I have seen that she has a problem with sin and the acceptance of it in the church.

I hope you are not saying you have "love" and she dosen't.

Well, that is certainly without merit.

I did not once make any of the claims you are inferring.

What I do see though is that she is part of a small camp that come through here with hatred in their speech repeatedly with such words as "pervert" "sodomite" and other distasteful, repugnant, judgmental phrases.

It is for this reason that I choose not to get inolved in lengthy discussions with the people of this "camp" and tend to move on from their questions. I don't see the purpose of debating with such behavior on the table.

Does relic have love? Probably. Do other members of this "camp?" Probably. But it sure would be nice to see it once in a while. I am sure the people who are looking for Jesus but only get met with slander and namecalling would like it too.

 

[bibleberean]

We will just have to disagree on the importance of showing love and not disdain in speaking to people about the Savior who by the way, loved people.

Again, I cannot read in Relics posts that she does not think it is important to show love to people or that she has disdain for sinners.

So, it would seem that there is no disagreement on that point... :D

 

[Lyric's Dad]

We will just have to disagree on the importance of showing love and not disdain in speaking to people about the Savior who by the way, loved people.

Again, I cannot read in Relics posts that she does not think it is important to show love to people or that she has disdain for sinners.

So, it would seem that there is no disagreement on that point... :D

This will be one of those times I don't find it to be beneficial to get into this.

 

[SputnikBoy]

We will just have to disagree on the importance of showing love and not disdain in speaking to people about the Savior who by the way, loved people.

Lyric's Dad,

I have not read that Relic shows disdain for sinners.

I have seen that she has a problem with sin and the acceptance of it in the church.

I hope you are not saying you have "love" and she dosen't.

But we get back to the same old argument in regard to those sins we choose to zero in on and those sins we choose to ignore. From my standpoint, one is NOT a sinner for having a specific sexual 'orientation', whether they be heterosexual, homosexual, or those who might have little sexual interest in either gender. So this, to me, is not even an issue ...regardless of how many Christians might tell me that it SHOULD be an issue to me. It isn't.

Any individual of any of the above groups, however, is capable of committing sinful acts, including sinful acts of sexual immorality to which the Bible refers. Those who commit sexual immorality today and in the past are BY FAR those in the heterosexual group. I personally don't know any practicing homosexuals. But I have seen a number of examples over the years of immoral activity by heterosexuals within as well as outside Christian circles. I'm sure that most of us have and we would have to concede that, statistically speaking, the homosexual group don't even come into the running where sexual immorality is concerned. And it's the 'heterosexual variety' of immoral sinners that the Bible predominantly targets ...not the homosexual.

There are NO threads currently running on this forum that deal with the sexual shananigans of the heterosexual group of sinners. None! And we are not likely to see any. This is because we have a witch-hunt mentality and there is no greater witch-hunt for Christians than to hunt down homosexuals. It's become a favorite Christian sport, just like the bloodhounds and the fox. Back him into a corner, watch him tremble and squirm, then tear him to pieces ...with the Bible, no less! Except MOST of the scriptures that are hurled at the homosexual person have NOTHING to do with their homosexual orientation ANYWAY! NOTHING!

The overwhelming majority of scriptural texts that you use, BB, to try to make the homosexual squirm are just texts of condemnation that are aimed at sinners GENERALLY. And yet you use them to target homosexuals SPECIFICALLY. And, sadly ...you MUST know that you're doing this. I gave several scriptural texts a while back that refer to activities that are an abomination to God. Each of them weigh the same on the scales of God. There are many but I'll just single out a few.

Serving God and money (Luke 16:15). This is an abomination to God.

Eating the flesh of pigs (Isaiah 66:17). This is an abomination to God.

Eating meat with the blood remaining in it (Ezekiel 33:25). This is an abomination to God.

Worshipping anything other than God (Deuteronomy 7:25). This is an abomination to God.

Remarrying one's spouse who has married someone else in the interim (Deuteronomy 24:1-4). This is an abomination to God.

Profaning the Sabbath (Numbers 15:32). This is an abomination to God.

All of the above are punishable by death. Hmmm.

So many Christians flaunt their hypocrisy so obviously at times that it's no wonder nonChristians scratch their heads in wonderment. Some of the more 'academically-minded' pick out and target their own 'abomination' from the Bible and, boy, do they run with it! They will even insist that there were OT 'abominations to God' that are NO LONGER abominations to God! What a fickle God they make Him out to be.

While I don't believe that the Bible makes ANY specific reference to one's sexual orientation as such anyway, Christians, generally, get on a roll with homosexuality. Many just 'parrot' what others say about ANY scriptural issue anyway and don't really have a clue what they're talking about. True! I would say that the overwhelming majority of Christians who claim to condemn homosexuality couldn't even recite John 3:16 if asked ...let alone lead someone to scriptures that deal with the issue of homosexuality.

 

[bibleberean]

Why do people cry foul when a non-Christian starts a thread on the topic of "homosexuality" which is clearly a sin condemned by scripture and then complain when the sin is discussed?

If they want to discuss adultery why don't they do so? :o

Start a thread and defend adultery and see what happens. 8-)

 

[destiny]

Start a thread and defend adultery and see what happens. 8-)

: LOL!

 

[bibleberean]

Why do people cry foul when a non-Christian starts a thread on the topic of "homosexuality" which is clearly a sin condemned by scripture and then complain when the sin is discussed?

If they want to discuss adultery why don't they do so? :o

Start a thread and defend adultery and see what happens. 8-)

Why do non Christians come to a Christian forum and pretend they are amazed and shocked when scriptures are quoted for answers to problems?

 

[Vic C.]

Start a thread and defend adultery and see what happens. 8-)

: LOL!

Hey maybe party boy Bill Clinton will stop by and start that thread, Robert. I guess it will all hinge on his definition of "adultry". ;-)

 

[Windozer]

I am at a loss to understand (a pastor) applying the names you have applied to certain individuals in your last post here. Jesus had worse things to say about your kind than he did about the kind of people you are talking about.

It's just this kind of attitude and name-calling from BB that I simply cannot come to grips with. He persistently refers to fellow human beings as 'perverts', 'vile', and 'scum'. It is so unbelievably unChristian. And yet these kinds of responses receive slaps on the back from Relic and others as I shake my head in disbelief. I really DO believe that the issue of homosexuality is the least of BB's problems.

I suspect that you are probably right SputnikBoy. Homosexuals etc. that are in denial (what they call being in the closet) tend to over compensate. That is they erect a smoke screen by strongly attempting to present themselves as being far away from what is true about themselves. Over exaggeration is often the result.

In short what I am trying to say is they paint a picture that is totally opposite to the truth about themselves, hoping that no one will suspect the truth.

I would be hard pressed to find anyone that does that... paint a much different picture than Pastor Robert has painted.

At any rate (judging from some of the responses here) it sure appears that some folks emotions are in twister over what has been posted.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Why do people cry foul when a non-Christian starts a thread on the topic of "homosexuality" which is clearly a sin condemned by scripture and then complain when the sin is discussed?

You stated as with some authority that someone who has a homosexual orientation is a non-Christian, BB. You just made a serious judgment on a fellow human being. And, a predisposition toward same gender attraction that is not determined by one's own choosing is NOT a sin.

If they want to discuss adultery why don't they do so? :o

It wouldn't go the distance, BB, and you know it. Sixteen pages? That's because adultery is a heterosexual sin and is seen as being 'more natural'. Besides that, adultery or the thought of adultery or coveting is more a cherished sin of Christians than is homosexuality. :wink:

Start a thread and defend adultery and see what happens. 8-)

Adultery is a choice. A homosexual orientation is NOT! And again, the thread wouldn't go the distance because heterosexual adultery, coveting and lusting occupy the thoughts of SO many professed Christians. True! Not that the suggestion of 'hypocrisy' often gets in the way of some who level the charges of sin against others. This entire thread is an exercise in hypocrisy. Because ...there is none righteous ...no not one (Romans 3:10)!

 

[SputnikBoy]

I am at a loss to understand (a pastor) applying the names you have applied to certain individuals in your last post here. Jesus had worse things to say about your kind than he did about the kind of people you are talking about.

It's just this kind of attitude and name-calling from BB that I simply cannot come to grips with. He persistently refers to fellow human beings as 'perverts', 'vile', and 'scum'. It is so unbelievably unChristian. And yet these kinds of responses receive slaps on the back from Relic and others as I shake my head in disbelief. I really DO believe that the issue of homosexuality is the least of BB's problems.

I suspect that you are probably right SputnikBoy. Homosexuals etc. that are in denial (what they call being in the closet) tend to over compensate. That is they erect a smoke screen by strongly attempting to present themselves as being far away from what is true about themselves. Over exaggeration is often the result.

In short what I am trying to say is they paint a picture that is totally opposite to the truth about themselves, hoping that no one will suspect the truth.

I would be hard pressed to find anyone that does that... paint a much different picture than Pastor Robert has painted.

At any rate (judging from some of the responses here) it sure appears that some folks emotions are in twister over what has been posted.

Oh dear. I've often been tempted to apply the "Thou prosteteth too much" analogy to this argument but have refrained from doing so. As a student of psychology I'm tempted to say there could be much truth behind what you implied in your post, Windozer. Oh my, I wonder if we're both in trouble?

 

[peace4all]

that are in denial (what they call being in the closet

just a note here.

most homosexuals that are "in the closet" are in there, because of the fear associatied with being open about it. Some people, can deal with the constant harrasment, and are crusaders, that are willing to take a ton of balogna just so everyone can be equal. However, others, don't like being taunted, threatened or physically/mentally abused. THerefore, they "stay in the closet"

 

[Relic]

... What I do see though is that she is part of a small camp that come through here with hatred in their speech repeatedly with such words as "pervert" "sodomite" and other distasteful, repugnant, judgmental phrases.

You said, "hatred in their speech"...

As if you aren't showing your hatred in stating that it is (in your opinion) "repugnant" to use the words "pervert" "sodomite" etc. ? :o
Are you saying that the scriptures which have those words in them are to never be repeated to the person who is living in that sin? :o :o :o

So now, according to you, we aren't allowed to express hatred for the works of iniquity, but you are allowed to express hatred for the descriptions we use for iniquities such as sodomy and fornication and those who pervert the holiness of sex that is intended for only a man and his wife? :o :o :o

Guess what.... God "hates" workers of iniquity.

Psalm 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

And He describes what iniquity is all throughout the bible.

And you are complaining because we, of this "certain camp" express hate in their speech? :o :o :o

All we do is express hate for the iniquity, not for people in general. Hate of an individual as a human being is not ever mentioned! It is the hate of the iniquity. And that is a huge difference. Lyric's Dad, Stop accusing people in the wrong context of using hate in their speech. You know very well that we don't hate people.

According to you, tell me, are we to avoid the scriptures that have the words "sodomite" and "pervert" "fornication" in them? What about the word whore? That's in the bible, oh and the word gluttony is in the bible too, you mean we can't tell anyone if they are in fact in the act of gluttony? :o :o :o
Are we supposed to scratch those words out of our bibles with a black marker for no one to see or use anymore? :o
or, are we to only use the scriptures that have "your stamp of approval" on them? :o

It's not our fault that scriptures use those words, is it? :-?



And so then, in reference to the "appropriate" example to use to show to the homosexual and fornicator, that it is a sin....

You are complaining that we don't provide good enough example because we use words that are "repugnant" and "distasteful" to you...
but on the other hand, you refuse to provide "specifically" which scriptures you would use that would be deemed appropriate and "approved by you" to be presented to the homosexual, fornicator?

Are you saying we can't call fornication, "fornication"? :o :o :o
Are you saying we can't call a sodomite, a "sodomite"? :o :o :o
Are you saying we can't call a sinner a "sinner"? :o :o :o
Are you saying we can't use certain words that are in the bible? :o :o :o

Don't you quote scriptures to show homosexuality and fornication as being a sin?
Is this all you say to sinners, "Jesus loves you" but then don't provide scriptures that show them homosexuality and fornication is a sin? :o :o :o

How are we to learn from your example if you refuse to provide an appropriate one that is "stamped with your approval" ? :-? How sad that you are not willing to provide the "appropriate scriptures" for us all to use, you know, those with your stamp of approval on them, that are not "offensive" or "repugnant" to the persons who are looking for Jesus.
Sorry but, if you think Jesus isn't one to rebuke people, then you have a lack of knowledge of the scriptures.

All I am asking, is to show which scriptures you would use from the bible that shows homosexuality and fornication is a sin. No big deal.
How could I argue with scriptures that prove that point in case? I cannot. So I would not have any argument with you, nor would I have any debate against any scriptures that shows homosexuality and fornication is a sin, neither would I have any argument with any scriptures that show sodomy is a sin. So how could I possibly argue with that? I cannot.


So then, how then are we, of this "certain camp" you speak of, supposed to learn from your "specific" example if you refuse to provide the appropriate scriptures to use (those that are sealed with your stamp of approval) that show sodomy and fornication and homosexuality are sin according to the word of God? :-? :o :o :o



Psalm 5:4-5 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. 5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.


um, :roll: Isn't the act of sodomy still a wicked thing, or is it just an abomination? Oh, I wonder if some of you would say... 'Be gentle now... we wouldn't want to offend the one who does such a thing! '

But don't you know..... Convictions of sin is only offensive to the one who wants to stay in their sin.

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.



Oh and another thing..... of course silly, We all know that the Savior loves people. And, if you don't think Jesus used strong words against the sins and hardness of hearts people committed themselves too, then you are not reading your bible thoroughly enough.



.

 

[SputnikBoy]

that are in denial (what they call being in the closet

just a note here.

most homosexuals that are "in the closet" are in there, because of the fear associatied with being open about it. Some people, can deal with the constant harrasment, and are crusaders, that are willing to take a ton of balogna just so everyone can be equal. However, others, don't like being taunted, threatened or physically/mentally abused. THerefore, they "stay in the closet"

On the other hand there are those who get so fanatical and obsessed by the issue of condemning homosexuality that it becomes quite suspect and ...well, you come to your own conclusions. The same could be said of those who defend the 'human aspect' of homosexuality. The difference is that one is condemning another while the other is not.

The 'facts' seem to support the idea that most if not all human beings at some time or another have felt a 'sexual' attraction toward the same gender. Many would not admit to this, of course, since sex, sexuality and specific gender roles dominate our culture, Denial of same sex attraction, especially from the 'stereotypical' male, is the appropriate response.

Same sex attraction - even fleeting - PARTICULARLY irks Christians since it would appear that the Bible condemns this. And this, I suspect, is what we see going on in threads such as this where posters take their self guilt to extremes as a cover. It isn't what the Bible might have to say on the issue that gets them upset. The Bible is used as a cover too. The psychologist has spoken. ;-)

 

[Relic]

The psychologist has spoken. :wink:

By the way, I took psychology also, as well as many others here!


Your so called psychology is absurd and is not biblical!

But that's another subject! :wink:

 

[SputnikBoy]

Relic ...I don't want to include your entire post here so I'll just refer you to your above response with all of it's screaming out the words of condemnation and all. I've got a biblical word that describes you. Are you ready? It's

HYPOCRITE!

And I know you're a hypocrite because anyone who indulges in calling another a sinner is a hypocrite according to the Bible. Just so as we know what the definition of the word is, I offer: Hypocrisy is the practice of professing standards, beliefs, etc. contrary to one's real character or actual behavior.

But, Relic, I'm a hypocrite too and this is why I need a Savior.