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How can the trinity be one God?

MarkT said:
Was God ever without glory? Glory can mean honor won by achievements. We give him glory for his works. But before the creation there would be no works and no man or anything to give him glory.

Glory can also mean great splendor.

John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory which thou hast given me in thy love for me before the foundation of the world.

He says, "to behold my glory which thou hast given me in thy love for me before the foundation of the world", not before the light. The light was created before the foundation of the world. The world was not the first act of creation.

Also his glory was given him that we should behold it, which is a reference to his appearance, the appearance he had before the foundation of the world. So I take it Jesus is referring to his glorious appearance when he was with God in the beginning when God created the light.

Proverbs 8:22-31 says the LORD created him at the beginning.
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So you believe God had no glory prior to creation?
 
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MarkT said:
Then later on he says, "the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ." Well, the glory of our great God and Saviour is Jesus Christ. So he is still talking about Jesus Christ.
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Our great God and Saviour is Jesus Christ.

Greek is a very specific language that doesn't give us two ways to manipulate this meaning the way English usually does.

If the intent is that God (the Father) is our great God and Saviour, while Jesus is none of that but merely the glory of it, that would be very specifically stated in the Greek. Fortunately for us, most of Church history has included those able to read the Greek so we're not left to try to sort these things out based on what we can make of it from English.
 
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Razeontherock said:
Our great God and Saviour is Jesus Christ.

Greek is a very specific language that doesn't give us two ways to manipulate this meaning the way English usually does.

If the intent is that God (the Father) is our great God and Saviour, while Jesus is none of that but merely the glory of it, that would be very specifically stated in the Greek. Fortunately for us, most of Church history has included those able to read the Greek so we're not left to try to sort these things out based on what we can make of it from English.
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When Paul says God he means the Father.

To Titus, my true child in a common faith:

Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour. Titus 1:4 RSV

So re. Titus 2:13, when he says God he means the Father, and when he says Jesus Christ he means Jesus Christ our Saviour.

No matter how you read it, the Father is God overall.
 
JLB said:
Jesus Christ is our great God and Savior.

Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:1

He is our Lord God, who is coming with the saints.


Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5



JLB
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In the 1st letter Peter says, 'chosen and destined by God the Father' and 'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy we have been born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead', 1 Peter 1:2,3 RSV

Then later on he says, 1Pet. 3:18 "For Christ died for sins that he might bring us to God". Who is God? God is the Father.

Is Peter saying something else or different in the 2nd letter? I don't think so. In the very next line he says, "May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord." 2 Pet. 1:2 Who is God? God is the Father.

Also in the footnotes it says, 'Or of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ'.

So the facts have not changed. The Father is still God overall. Not saying Jesus did not inherit the attributes and the rank of God. But it's God the Father who has put everything under his feet.
1 Corinthians 15:27
“For God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “All things are put in subjection under him,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him.
 
MarkT said:
When Paul says God he means the Father.

To Titus, my true child in a common faith:

Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour. Titus 1:4 RSV

So re. Titus 2:13, when he says God he means the Father, and when he says Jesus Christ he means Jesus Christ our Saviour.

No matter how you read it, the Father is God overall.
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Mark,

Does your concept of God come out of your mind or by exegesis of the text?

Let's take Titus 2:13 as an example from the Greek testament: προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ,

This bold phrase has only one definite article to govern the phrase, τῆς, 'of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ'. There is no definite article, 'the', associated with 'Savior Jesus Christ', so this phrase refers to the ONE person 'our great God and Savior Jesus Christ'. Jesus is the 'great God' who is called 'Savior' in this verse.

So when Paul says 'God' in Titus 2:13 he is NOT saying 'God the Father'. He's stating that the 'great God' is the 'savior Jesus Christ'. Greek grammar refutes your position.

Oz
 
MarkT,
Scripture says that God is love.
In Orthodox Trinitarian theology, we believe that God has always been love, for there has never been a time when the Father was not loving His Son. Thus, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have shared in this Love for eternity.

We reason that if God was singular, and was before the Son or the Holy Spirit, then God could not be love in eternity, for if one only loves himself, then then that really isnt love.

This raises the question. Is God then dependent upon His creation to Love?
 
OzSpen said:
Mark,

Does your concept of God come out of your mind or by exegesis of the text?

Let's take Titus 2:13 as an example from the Greek testament: προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ,

This bold phrase has only one definite article to govern the phrase, τῆς, 'of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ'. There is no definite article, 'the', associated with 'Savior Jesus Christ', so this phrase refers to the ONE person 'our great God and Savior Jesus Christ'. Jesus is the 'great God' who is called 'Savior' in this verse.

So when Paul says 'God' in Titus 2:13 he is NOT saying 'God the Father'. He's stating that the 'great God' is the 'savior Jesus Christ'. Greek grammar refutes your position.

Oz
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"the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior - Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is the glory of God Heb. 1:3
Hebrews 1:3
He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

and he is our Saviour. That's my understanding.
 
StoveBolts said:
MarkT,
Scripture says that God is love.
In Orthodox Trinitarian theology, we believe that God has always been love, for there has never been a time when the Father was not loving His Son. Thus, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have shared in this Love for eternity.

We reason that if God was singular, and was before the Son or the Holy Spirit, then God could not be love in eternity, for if one only loves himself, then then that really isnt love.

This raises the question. Is God then dependent upon His creation to Love?
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He is also a jealous God Ex. 34:14 Ex. 20:15, a devouring fire Deut. 4:24 and a vengeful God. Rom. 12:19 Deut. 32:35

I agree God is love. But if God is love, time doesn't enter into it. He just is.

But when there was nothing but water and God had not even said, "Let there be light", who was there to give him glory?
 
MarkT said:
Good question.
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I thought so.

MarkT said:
n this verse they are One; the Father in the Son and the Son in the Father.
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The verse doesn’t mention anything about the Son or the Father.

Here’s a little more context:

For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior. ... ​
I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior.​
Isaiah 43:3,11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Isaiah 43:3,11&version=RSV

So what’s your answer to the question; how many Saviours are there?

A. One
B. Two
C. Three
D. None
 
Captain Falcon said:
I'm not understanding how the trinity can be one God. How can three divine persons with three divine minds and three divine wills be one God? The Bible says that the Messiah must fear God. Jesus demonstrated this when he said the Father is greater than he is. How does that fit in with trinitarian theology? Thank you.
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LONG ANSWER
in hebrew it says echad - one - unity - oneness - singleness of purpose/heart/mind/voice - NOTE: all of the scriptures below are echad in hebrew but some translations do not make this clear by their choice of words - this is why hebrew and greek are the best because it is what the bible was originally written in - translations sometimes make mistakes

God says all these are one (echad)

1. God - Deuteronomy 6:4 - Zechariah 14:9 -

2. a man and his wife - Genesis 2:24 - Malachi 2:15 -

3. the people of God - Jeremiah 32:39 - Ezekiel 11:19 - Zephaniah 3:9 - 2 Chronicles 5:13

4. enemy attack - Deuteronomy 28:7 - Genesis 11:6

5. One God has made us one people - Malachi 2:10

927 times echad is used in the Old Testament to describe one God/person/thing AND/or 2 or more people/3 Divine Persons

2 or more people/3 Divine Persons can be in such unity that they are considered one

SHORT ANSWER
how can a man and wife be one? - by choice - they use their free will to be one
how can an army or a group of people be of one heart and mind? - by choice - using their free will to be one
how can God the Father Son and Holy Spirit be One? - by choice

if imperfect people can be one heart and mind how much more possible is it that God the Father Son and Holy Spirit be One?

HOW CAN ONE BE GREATER AND YET ONE? - John 14:28
the same way that man can be head over the wife and yet the 2 are still one - 1 Corinthians 11:3 - Genesis 2:24
or the same way an army or a group of people can be one yet there are people of different ranks in that group/army - like fathers mothers sons daughters tribe leaders judges priests - all different ranks and positions can choose to be one
 
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chessman said:
There is only one Savior. Excellent.

And Jesus Christ is our Savior:


So Jesus Christ is the Lord your God, right?

For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior.​
Isaiah 43:3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Isaiah 43:3&version=RSV
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You said, The verse doesn’t mention anything about the Son or the Father. Does the verse mention Jesus Christ? No? So what's your point?

I said they are One. Jesus said, Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.
Mark 10:18
And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

The Father is my God. He is the only true God and God overall. My Lord Jesus sits at his right hand.

4 but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. Titus 3: 4-7

Paul refers to the goodness and the kindness of God our Saviour. Then he said, "He saved us" through Jesus Christ our Saviour. Who is God in this passage? The Father or the Son? Did Jesus Christ save us through Jesus Christ?

Jesus said there would come a time when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth.

John 4:23
But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him.
 
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MarkT said:
So what's your point?
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The same point as the Holy Spirit inspired Isaiah and Paul makes (in the RSV): There is only one Savior who is the Lord your God. And Jesus Christ (Messiah) is our Savior.

For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior. ...​
I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior.​
Isaiah 43:3,11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Isaiah 43:3,11&version=RSV

To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.​
Titus 1:4 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Titus 1:4&version=RSV


MarkT said:
The Father is my God.
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Of course. And God is the only Savior, right?
MarkT said:
My Lord Jesus sits at his right hand.
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So your one Savior now (once again as it was in the beginning) sits hand-in-hand, Father and Son, right?

MarkT said:
Paul refers to the goodness and the kindness of God our Saviour.
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Yes and Paul sends Titus grace and peace which only comes from our Savior, Jesus Christ. Do you think Paul was aware of Isaiah 43 saying your God is your Savior?

MarkT said:
Then he said, "He saved us" through Jesus Christ our Saviour.
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Yes by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit.
MarkT said:
Did Jesus Christ save us through Jesus Christ?
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God saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ (Messiah).
 
MarkT said:
You said, The verse doesn’t mention anything about the Son or the Father. Does the verse mention Jesus Christ? No? So what's your point?

I said they are One. Jesus said, Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.
Mark 10:18
And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

The Father is my God. He is the only true God and God overall. My Lord Jesus sits at his right hand.

4 but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. Titus 3: 4-7

Paul refers to the goodness and the kindness of God our Saviour. Then he said, "He saved us" through Jesus Christ our Saviour. Who is God in this passage? The Father or the Son? Did Jesus Christ save us through Jesus Christ?

Jesus said there would come a time when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth.

John 4:23
But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him.
Click to expand...


Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5


I thought you agreed that the Lord God who is coming with the saints, is the Son?

What changed?


JLB
 
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