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Alright JLB and MarkT ,
Let's not go down this path... nobody is going to change their minds at this point and history shows that this is going to lead to division if allowed to continue.

I'm not going to lock this thread, but you two need to find common ground as brothers in Christ. Unity is not uniformity and your both going to have to accept where each other is in the Lord, and let our common love for each other strengthen our brotherhood.

Thanks.
 
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Yes, I agree.
The question really is, who is God? Isnt that what we are really talking about? Within Trinity, God is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
These three are one, in perfect unity and harmony.
Adam was not greater than Eve, they were one (echad). In the same way, the Trinity is also one ( echad). This word echad does not represent a numerical value, but rather part of a whole. To say one is greater, is also to say one is lesser. That is akin to saying one is over another and this always leads to rivelry.
God is Love, and where there is perfect love, there is perfect harmony. Within this love, there is no chance for rivalry because love drives out fear, and fear only occurs where one is above another, and that's not unity, instead, we call that uniformity. It's not harmony.
I had posted early on how I know God and that God is Love, Light and Holiness. The Son is not equal from what scripture conveys to my heart. The Son is a good Son and he honor's his Father, he doesn't make himself an equal. The Lord's Prayer conveys this. Also, the Word himself conveys a "Honor" that a parent has over a child. This is also why good Christians will understand authority. We have the mind of Christ and he doesn't make himself equal.

1 Corinthians 15:27-28
 
I had posted early on how I know God and that God is Love, Light and Holiness. The Son is not equal from what scripture conveys to my heart. The Son is a good Son and he honor's his Father, he doesn't make himself an equal. The Lord's Prayer conveys this. Also, the Word himself conveys a "Honor" that a parent has over a child. This is also why good Christians will understand authority. We have the mind of Christ and he doesn't make himself equal.

1 Corinthians 15:27-28
I agree.

When we look at the Ten Commandments, we see a divide. Half talks about God, and the other half talks about humanity. The commandment that makes this distinction tells us to honor our parents. God choose this as a transitional command because how one honors their parents will be how they honor God.

Adam and Eve were not equal, yet they were still one. That is, combined they were each part of a whole. One, echad, simply denotes part of a whole, which is to say there are numerous pieces involved.

Adam had his assignments, and Eve had hers. When both are properly fulfilling their roles, there is harmony and unity. In scripture, the man is commanded to love his wife, and a woman is commanded to respect her husband. When a man loves his wife, he shows her great honor, and when a woman respects her husband, she shows him great honor. Neither are equal for each has a specific role and purpose yet when one is honored, both share in that honor.

The shift in our thinking is this. When the Son is honored, the Father and the Spirit are honored. When the Father is honored, the Son and Spirit are honored. When the Spirit is honored, the Father and the Son are also honored. In this way, they are co- equal.

In this same way, when a child honors his Mother, his Father is also honored, as is the child. For the child is honored by submitting to his parents.
 
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You agree that "The Son is not equal from what scripture conveys to my heart. The Son is a good Son and he honor's his Father, he doesn't make himself an equal."???
Then you do NOT agree with the universal teaching of the Church.
Which is:
I believe in one God, The Father Almighty,
creator of heaven and earth and of all that is seen and unseen.

I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God,
light from light,
true God from true God,
Begotten, not made,

of one essence with the Father

Or have I missed something and come to the wrong conclusion??
:confused

Iakov the fool
 
You agree that "The Son is not equal from what scripture conveys to my heart. The Son is a good Son and he honor's his Father, he doesn't make himself an equal."???
Then you do NOT agree with the universal teaching of the Church.
Which is:
I believe in one God, The Father Almighty,
creator of heaven and earth and of all that is seen and unseen.

I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God,
light from light,
true God from true God,
Begotten, not made,

of one essence with the Father

Or have I missed something and come to the wrong conclusion??
:confused

Iakov the fool
I think you missed something. :)
 
You agree that "The Son is not equal from what scripture conveys to my heart. The Son is a good Son and he honor's his Father, he doesn't make himself an equal."???
Then you do NOT agree with the universal teaching of the Church.
Which is:
I believe in one God, The Father Almighty,
creator of heaven and earth and of all that is seen and unseen.

I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God,
light from light,
true God from true God,
Begotten, not made,

of one essence with the Father

Or have I missed something and come to the wrong conclusion??
:confused

Iakov the fool
You agree that "The Son is not equal from what scripture conveys to my heart. The Son is a good Son and he honor's his Father, he doesn't make himself an equal."???
Then you do NOT agree with the universal teaching of the Church.
Which is:
I believe in one God, The Father Almighty,
creator of heaven and earth and of all that is seen and unseen.

I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God,
light from light,
true God from true God,
Begotten, not made,

of one essence with the Father

Or have I missed something and come to the wrong conclusion??
:confused

Iakov the fool

"The universal teaching of the church" is not necessarily the teaching of the scripture.
 
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Philippians 2:5-8

  • being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God


JLB
 
"The universal teaching of the church" is not necessarily the teaching of the scripture.
:nonono It absolutely is the teaching of scripture and it defines Christianity.

While you are correct, "the church" has, in its variety of organizations, come up with some rather odd notions of what is essential Christianity, some of which border on absurdity.

But, the reader of scripture who, for some reason, concludes he is mor capable of understandint what Jesus and Paul et.al. meant based on his understanding of his English translation, than were the people who generated the Creed and that he understands the scriptures better than they did is demonstrating an extreme level of ignorance and arrogance. They spoke the language in which the scriptures was written and did not have to depend on a translation into a modern, western language from an entirely different culture. They lived in the culture in which the Church was established so they understood the nuances of the Greek which cannot even be translated into English.

The result of that ignorance and arrogance can be observed in the existence of tens of thousands of denominations all claiming to be right in spite of Jesus explicitly stated will that we be one (Jn 17) and Paul's admonition to the Corinthian church ( 1Co 1:10) that there be no divisions among them.

It is an act of rebelliousness (which is like the sin of witchcraft 1Sa 15:23) for any individual to assume and then declare that they know better than the people who hammered out the doctrines of the Trinity in the early years of the church in the face of multiple heresies in the face of threat of exile and death.

It is a testimony to the ignorance of those rebellious people that they consistently come up with the same heresies that the early church went to such great lengths to refute and it is evidence of arrogance for these rebels to boldly state that it is the Holy Spirit who has revealed it to them as the true meaning of scripture.

It is these rebellious people who have "blessed" us with the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Christian Scientists, the "oneness" churches and every other popular heresy used to lead people to hell today.

There is truly nothing new under the sun. That same mindset that assaulted the Church with Arianism, Nestorianism, Docetism, Apollenarianism, Modalism, and every other early heresy that is simply reintroduced by the devil through the agency ignorant and arrogant people who believe they "know better" than those who put their lives on the line for the truth many centuries ago.

I find it shocking when someone without any formal theological training declares that they know what scripture teaches better than Athanasius and Basil and Gregory of Nyssa and Gregory Nazianzus and Cyril of Alexandria and John Chrysostom and multiple others who fought, some to the death, in order to preserve the teaching of the apostles which they were taught by God with us, Jesus.

Christianity comes to us a a whole piece. We do not get to remake it according to our personal interpretations.

The creed is what is exactly what is meant in the ToS by the words: "historic Christianity." It is the universal teaching of the Church from the beginning.

OK - end of rant

iakov the fool
 
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Philippians 2:5-8

  • being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God


JLB
Philippians 2:6 Who, being the very nature God, did not consider equality with God
 
You agree that "The Son is not equal from what scripture conveys to my heart. The Son is a good Son and he honor's his Father, he doesn't make himself an equal."???
Then you do NOT agree with the universal teaching of the Church.
Which is:
I believe in one God, The Father Almighty,
creator of heaven and earth and of all that is seen and unseen.

I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God,
light from light,
true God from true God,
Begotten, not made,

of one essence with the Father

Or have I missed something and come to the wrong conclusion??
:confused

Iakov the fool
He wasn't agreeing with me on that point. He was agreeing with me on the honoring point. Hardly anyone has my view of Jesus is God but under the Father.
 
Philippians 2:6 Who, being the very nature God, did not consider equality with God
Yes, being the very nature of God makes Him God just as the Father is God.
Phl 2:7 "but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men."
Even though He was God, he took the form of a man.
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:14a And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
 
God is trinity and monarchical with the Father "at the helm". Exactly how it all works is a mystery beyond our ability to give an exact definition or explanation.
Exactly, which is why we give each other grace as we try to comprehend it ourselves
The early church Fathers struggled with it, so will we. What's important, is that we respect where each other is on the matter.
 
The early church Fathers struggled with it, so will we. What's important, is that we respect where each other is on the matter.
The ECFs did struggle with it and were able to come to agreement on what the apostles taught.
SO, my point was, when people come up with their own private ideas, they're very commonly just rehashing old heresies that were dealt with over 1000 years ago when there was only one church.

So, yeah, where the doctrine is vague, don't split hairs.
But, where the doctrine is clear, don't try to refute it.
 
:nonono It absolutely is the teaching of scripture and it defines Christianity.

While you are correct, "the church" has, in its variety of organizations, come up with some rather odd notions of what is essential Christianity, some of which border on absurdity.

But, the reader of scripture who, for some reason, concludes he is mor capable of understandint what Jesus and Paul et.al. meant based on his understanding of his English translation, than were the people who generated the Creed and that he understands the scriptures better than they did is demonstrating an extreme level of ignorance and arrogance. They spoke the language in which the scriptures was written and did not have to depend on a translation into a modern, western language from an entirely different culture. They lived in the culture in which the Church was established so they understood the nuances of the Greek which cannot even be translated into English.

The result of that ignorance and arrogance can be observed in the existence of tens of thousands of denominations all claiming to be right in spite of Jesus explicitly stated will that we be one (Jn 17) and Paul's admonition to the Corinthian church ( 1Co 1:10) that there be no divisions among them.

It is an act of rebelliousness (which is like the sin of witchcraft 1Sa 15:23) for any individual to assume and then declare that they know better than the people who hammered out the doctrines of the Trinity in the early years of the church in the face of multiple heresies in the face of threat of exile and death.

It is a testimony to the ignorance of those rebellious people that they consistently come up with the same heresies that the early church went to such great lengths to refute and it is evidence of arrogance for these rebels to boldly state that it is the Holy Spirit who has revealed it to them as the true meaning of scripture.

It is these rebellious people who have "blessed" us with the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Christian Scientists, the "oneness" churches and every other popular heresy used to lead people to hell today.

There is truly nothing new under the sun. That same mindset that assaulted the Church with Arianism, Nestorianism, Docetism, Apollenarianism, Modalism, and every other early heresy that is simply reintroduced by the devil through the agency ignorant and arrogant people who believe they "know better" than those who put their lives on the line for the truth many centuries ago.

I find it shocking when someone without any formal theological training declares that they know what scripture teaches better than Athanasius and Basil and Gregory of Nyssa and Gregory Nazianzus and Cyril of Alexandria and John Chrysostom and multiple others who fought, some to the death, in order to preserve the teaching of the apostles which they were taught by God with us, Jesus.

Christianity comes to us a a whole piece. We do not get to remake it according to our personal interpretations.

The creed is what is exactly what is meant in the ToS by the words: "historic Christianity." It is the universal teaching of the Church from the beginning.

OK - end of rant

iakov the fool

I said "not necessarily".
 
Then you do NOT agree with the universal teaching of the Church.
Which is:
I believe in one God, The Father Almighty,
creator of heaven and earth and of all that is seen and unseen.

I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God,
light from light,
true God from true God,
Begotten, not made,

of one essence with the Father

I'm going to break this down and show you that it does not go against what I'm saying, just in case you think so.

This is showing the Father - - - - Almighty (above all)
Lord Jesus Christ (above us)
the Son has God DNA
Didn't come into the world like we have
The Holy Spirit is what connects them

This is why John 14:20 can be said. The Holy Spirit with connect us with the Father and the Son
 
Jim

Once you start retranslating the Bible, where does it end?

It has nothing to do with "re-translating" it.

It has to do with how one understands it.

Here, on display, you do violence to Scripture. That's very easy to correct! All you need do is the same thing everyone before you has done, and realize Scripture was written long before English was a language. You can't possibly begin to understand John 1 until you take that step. In the meantime that's very good news for you, because it holds the promise of unlocking much understanding for you ...
 
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I had posted early on how I know God and that God is Love, Light and Holiness. The Son is not equal from what scripture conveys to my heart. The Son is a good Son and he honor's his Father, he doesn't make himself an equal. The Lord's Prayer conveys this. Also, the Word himself conveys a "Honor" that a parent has over a child. This is also why good Christians will understand authority. We have the mind of Christ and he doesn't make himself equal.

1 Corinthians 15:27-28


*Ahem* Philemon 2:6
 
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