billybalke
Member
In the very first verse of the very first book of the Bible it reads: "In the beginning God created--". God here in Hebrew is Elohim and is plural.
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billybalke
Member
billybalke
Member
Bed time for Billy.
Yes Jesus.
Jesus is YHWH, the Lord God of Israel, who became flesh.
Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God... And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” Exodus 3:1-6,14
- the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire
- Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God
- say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:58-59
- I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.
- Then they took up stones to throw at Him
JLB
Seems to me you are tearing God apart. Making God three persons and equal. That goes against everything Jesus taught us about the Father, like the Father is greater than the Son and the Father sent him. John 17:8 The Father gave him life. John 5:26 The Father raised him from the dead. Gal. 1:1, Acts 5:30
The Holy Spirit raised Him from the dead.
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[e] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 1 Peter 3:18-19
Jesus Himself raised Himself from the dead.
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. John 2:19-21
IOW, the Godhead raised Him from the dead.
JLB
stovebolts
Member
I'm going to push back on this lightly for discussion sake.
I wouldn't say Jesus is YHVH, and I wouldn't get there by I AM. When talking Trinity, we would also have to say Jesus is Holy Spirit if we were to follow out the above line of thinking.
YHVH has a specific meaning, and IAM is a subset of that meaning. Jesus can say he is the I Am without claiming to be YHVH.
John 17:24 a, c
English Standard Version
Father, ...because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
YHVH is represented as the Father, and Jesus is represented as the Son. The Holy spirit stirs this love into action. God creates out of that great and perfect love. Genesis 1.
God then becomes a picture of a Father loving his children moved through the spirit in love.
We see this in Jesus baptism. The spirit is hovering above the water and we hear the Father say, "This is my son, whom I am well pleased". He says the same to us when we are baptized and like Jesus, the Holy Spirt descends on us.
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God the Father is greater than the Son because when He came in human flesh He humbled Himself in submission to the Father. I see this as an example for us to follow. We are to humble ourselves into submission to Jesus. This is what I hear when I read Philippians 2:5-8.
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond servant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. NKJV
He is very much God, God in human flesh, but nonetheless God.
1Peter says Christ suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God. The Father is God. Of course Jesus was made alive by the Spirit, by whom he went and preached to the spirits in prison. This was during the three days he was dead; this was before the Father raised him from the dead. This is when he preached the gospel to the dead.
Well, who gave him his power? Where did his power come from? The Father who dwelt in him did the work. John 14:10
Jesus said it, but the Father gave him the words to say. John 12:49
John 20:17
Jesus said to her, “Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
Jesus said his Father was God. He had not yet ascended to the Father his God and our God. In every way Jesus taught us about God, our Father.
Jesus said to her, “Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
Jesus said his Father was God. He had not yet ascended to the Father his God and our God. In every way Jesus taught us about God, our Father.
He was in the form of God; the likeness of God, like God but not equal to God.
2 Corinthians 4:4
In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God.
The image of the invisible God. Collossians 1:15
I would say he was the appearance of God on earth. Seeing him was seeing the Father. John 14:9
Yes. My post was directed toward you.
Your very insightful.
YHWH is the Lord God of the Old Testament.
He is the One who created the heaven and the earth.
The Lord, YHWH, is speaking here through Zechariah.
The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
Zechariah 12:1
- who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth,
This is the work of the Son, as the book of Hebrews teaches us -
- But to the Son He says:...You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10
Furthermore, YHWH goes on to say through Zechariah in the same paragraph-
- then they will look on Me whom they pierced.
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:10
Finally, Peter teaches us it was the Spirit of Christ in the Old Testament prophets.
- the Spirit of Christ who was in them
Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11
This is just the beginning of how the New Testament reveals that Jesus Christ is Lord, YHWH.
JLB
stovebolts
Member
I believe I understand your view, and I dont see any issue with it. However, I do enjoy deeper discussions that challenge us to deeper insights.
In the above verses, you see Jesus as YHVH. I see Jesus as one with YHVH. A subtle difference.
We see in Genesis 1 that Elohiem ( God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit) are working in perfect union, harmony and love. God creates through His Word, aka God the Son.
God is one, but is also relational within that oneness and here lays the great mystery. If one is numerically singular, it could not be relational, nor could it be love, for love of self is selfish, and that's no love at all.
I think what throws people may be the idea of 3 seperate gods being one. This is not what I am saying. There is one God, made of three persons who are one in eternity.
billybalke
Member
LovethroughDove
Member
I hope what I'm about to say makes sense. We are Christians. We have the mind of Christ. Jesus knows that Father is greater than he is. We know that Christ is greater than us, but we have the Holy Spirit on our side connecting us to God. Jesus works in this same fashion. He does not make himself equal to the Father, but he knows where he is in the authority of things. If you have been given the Holy Spirit, you know how this all works. The Holy Spirit gives us revelation of God and how God operates.
I know of someone who tried to be on the same level as the Father and it wasn't the Son.
I know of someone who tried to be on the same level as the Father and it wasn't the Son.
LovethroughDove
Member
Also, it doesn't make Jesus less-God that he submits to the Father.
I see the Son as having the same name as the Father.
The name above all names.
Look up the Hebrew name for Joshua, and you will see the four letters within it.
The definition for Jesus and Joshua is the same, which is why the translators had trouble distinguishing between the two.
One example of this is found in Hebrews.
For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. Hebrews 4:8 NKJV
For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Hebrews 4:8 KJV
The is no question that Jesus created all things, which plainly shows He is YHWH, the Son of God, Who as the firstborn would be named after the Father.
- Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
John 17:11 NIV
JLB
Thanks for sharing your perspective, however the scriptures say this -
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. John 2:19-21